SWT ticket office staff jailed for fraud

[sbt]

I would suspect it was a classic case of a ringleader or two, and the remainder coerced into going along with it.

This is why anti-fraud measures protect not only the company and the public but also employees. If fraud is difficult (its never impossible) then temptation and the possibility of staff being coerced, pressured or cajoled into it, by colleagues or others, is much reduced. Plus if fraud DOES occur, if its impossible for you to have done it you get ruled out earlier and have a less stressful life.

Its also why 'trivial fraud' (like Stationary Theft) is stamped on. Trivial fraud gives those that know about it a toehold to coerce or pressure you into 'slightly less trivial' stuff and eventually progress into serious fraud.

Its a good policy in situations where a group of people handle money to rotate staff in and out - it makes it harder to set up and maintain a 'group fraud' and hopefully breaks up or prevents a 'fraudulent culture'. Few would go as far as one manager I know of who randomly selected his cash office staff from a large pool on a daily basis and imposed a 'two people or no people' rule wherever cash was being dealt with.

 

[NeilWatson]

In my shop I once accepted payment in £50 notes from a well-known artist and personal friend. When I went to pay them into my bank account the cashier informed me one of them was a forgery, so I lost the £50 and was told the matter was automatically being referred to the police (from whom I heard nothing, by the way). I phoned my friend and told him what had happened- he told me I was the third trader who had been in touch with him and he had already been to see the Manager at the local branch of Abbey National (as was) as they had loaded these dud £50 notes into their cash machine. The Manager turned not a hair, admitted 'liability' and immediately refunded him the £150 (NOT in £50 notes).

Is it the legal position then that the unsuspecting customer can put their card into a cash machine, be issued with a batch of fake notes and be pounced on by policemen in wait for such an occurence? This seeme to me to be EXACTLY the same as someone going to a station ticket office and asking the employee there (not someone dodgy in a hoody hanging around) to top their Oyster or whatever up. I cannot believe that such a passenger can possibly have done anything criminal or illegal - this is nothing to do with 'ignorance of the law', the person has no reason to believe, or be in a position to know, that the card is anything other than kosher. If I were ever accused of such a thing under these circumstances I'd be taking the booking office clerk's employees to court for a sizable amount of money.

If somebody legally- qualified can elucidate that would be good, and if I am wrong then the law truly is an ass.

A cash machine dispensing £50 notes? This sounds like a 'fisherman's tale' to me....

 

[Busaholic]

A cash machine dispensing £50 notes? This sounds like a 'fisherman's tale' to me....

It may not have been a cash machine, perhaps it was in the branch (it was fifteen years ago and my friend has been dead for ten years) but I can assure you the basis of the story is true, the building society dispensed duds, no doubt unwittingly, but where did they obtain them from?

I have a special interest in fraud because a huge (by Cornish standards) fraud has allegedly been committed locally over many years by an individual who, a year since his arrest, still hasn't come to court because the case is so complex. He remains free, on police bail, and not a word has been in the papers or on the internet about it, but a high street bank has just paid out a sum of hundreds of thousands of pounds (without admitting liability!) to an organisation whose funds were depleted by this individual. Apparently the CPS are almost ready to start court proceedings and this case will certainly make the national press, and this is not a fisherman's tale either! I have friends in this organisation who have had to give huge amounts of time to help the police (initially Devon and Cornwall but quickly City of London) and it has been extremely stressful for everyone concerned.

 

[jon0844]

I was given fake £20s by Barclays, over the counter. They too swapped them no fuss, and implied it happens quite a lot. Apparently they outsource cash handling to Securicor (or did 10 years or so ago) so while it's off topic, always check money thoroughly before leaving your bank!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

No, if a passenger is using an invalid ticket they are committing a strict liability criminal offence, even if they asked for the correct product and fully believed they had sold the correct product.

This is a good reason why the 'strict liability' Railway Byelaw 18 needs to be abolished, see my post on this subject here.

It would be relatively easy to have any attempt to prosecute in such circumstances dismissed. It would astonish me that a prosecution would even be considered in such circumstances.
The objection to Byelaw 18 cannot in any reasonable way be read as commensurate with the Fraud being discussed in this thread.

If those in public facing roles are so precious they cannot take a joke then they are in the wrong job...Become a faceless bureaucrat instead!!

Quite, with strict liability you're on a hiding to nothing - in theory at least.. Just goes to show how ridiculous strict liability is.

This relentless stream of posts critical of railway staff and basic railway regulation is very tiresome and contribute nothing of value - just repeated rhetoric.

Strict Liability is a perfectly appropriate approach to matters of fact where a wrong has been done. It does not mean that the standards of Evidence are in anyway relaxed from any other Criminal Prosecution, and all Prosecution Evidence can be put to proof before a conviction can be considered.

There are a number of successful p[rosecutions for organised fraud such as this, and it is true that in several of these the passengers have been a willing and culpable party to the fraud. However, that would not be considered an appropriate matter for a Byelaw Prosecution.

Wow first reply to a topic is a dig at all railstaff, smillie or not! :roll:

Sadly, that attitude is horribly common on this forum.
There's been a few threads which have done that in the last few days, which is quite depressing.

 

[Busaholic]

My hoped-for career in the transport industry never took off, I'm sure partly because of my own failings, but I' ve always remained very interested and supportive of transport staff. The structure of the industry is another matter and one I would be highly critical of, but it's mostly out of the hands of the vast majority.
Having done some other jobs with relative success, though, brings a different perspective and, sometimes, a degree of expertise which might pertain to some of the more arcane subjects that crop up on this forum.
Now in semi-retirement, I'm just a shopkeeper, but I think I have a general layman's knowledge of the Law of Contract and it's clear to me that when a passenger purchases a ticket at a railway booking office a contract is entered into, binding on both parties. If, say, an Oystercard was purchased then the passenger must abide by the regulations attached to it, but the passenger is entitled to all the benefits provided by the security of that card, without let or hindrance from any transport staff, up to the value of the sum purchased. It matters not who runs Oystercard, in this instance SWT were the approved agents for selling it, and both SWT and the Oystercard organisation owe a duty of care to the passenger in return for the money handed over. It is outrageous to suggest that the unsuspecting passenger is anything other than a victim of crime if something is wrong with the ticket and how, in any case, could they possibly have known the transaction was not entirely genuine?
If anyone thinks I am fundamentally WRONG on this please say so, but do provide chapter and verse.
Thank you.

 

[HH]

Staff fraud is not that rare; I recall that when DoR took over South Eastern, every month's board report seemed to include at least one report of a fraud discovered at a booking office. RPI fraud is hardly unknown either, although it's harder to carry out these days; I recall my father telling me some stories of huge frauds back in the days of BR. Just like Banks, railway companies don't always report the frauds, I guess because they show management incompetence. Perhaps these often start out as minor fraud (e.g. fake booking on/off); if these do not get picked up by the TOC then the perpetrators might gradually get bolder and bolder.

These things, can, and should be spotted, at the HQ, but sometimes they aren't, and sometimes people deliberately let them get away with minor stuff, as hard as that might be for some to believe. I recall pointing out to a senior Commercial Manager (later a Director) that a particular TO was collectively only working half the hours it was getting paid for on a Sunday, by logging each other in/out (which is forbidden), but him not being interested at all.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . but I think I have a general layman's knowledge of the Law of Contract and it's clear to me that when a passenger purchases a ticket at a railway booking office a contract is entered into, binding on both parties. If, say, an Oystercard was purchased then the passenger must abide by the regulations attached to it, but the passenger is entitled to all the benefits provided by the security of that card, . .

. . . It is outrageous to suggest that the unsuspecting passenger is anything other than a victim of crime if something is wrong with the ticket and how, in any case, could they possibly have known the transaction was not entirely genuine?
If anyone thinks I am fundamentally WRONG on this please say so, but do provide chapter and verse.
Thank you.

you are correct. Those who have suggested otherwise will have been speculating and not quoting from fact.

 

[Busaholic]

you are correct. Those who have suggested otherwise will have been speculating and not quoting from fact.

Thank you for your confirmation.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

No they said it was due to the company who design the system taking such a useful feature away. Did the same at Wimbledon. I asked on Twitter some time ago and that was the reason given.

Thanks, that has saved me a trip to Wimbledon, looks like it will have to be TFL for me next year. I miss out on the free tickets and SWT loose out on £2000+ of my season ticket money.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Thanks, that has saved me a trip to Wimbledon, looks like it will have to be TFL for me next year. I miss out on the free tickets and SWT loose out on £2000+ of my season ticket money.

£40+. The commission on a season ticket is 2%.