SWT plans?

[Surreyman]

We know about the 458 5/10 car conversion plan, ditto the 455/456 10 car plans, looks like SWT are going to order 40 5 car units, presumably for the Waterloo - Reading line?
If that is the case then there will be around 24+ 450s surplus and available for beefing up other routes, anyone like to hazard a guess as to where and what?
I will put in a first bid of the Waterloo - Woking/Guildford stopping service, where the platforms are all suitable for 12 trains already.

 

[swt_passenger]

The plans do not follow a straight forward process, in that the 456s aren't really being used as originally expected. Most of the 456s are NOT being used directly to produce 10 car trains, but to allow cascades affecting what you'd normally refer to as mainline routes. (A post in wnxx last year revealed that a significant number of 456s are to operate the Guildford - Ascot shuttles for instance, and some are intended to provide additional 8 car trains.)

What I'm basing this on is the details in SWT's announcements below, which include many examples of strengthening longer distance routes affecting 450s, 444s, 159s etc, as a result of the 456's arrival.
So I'd expect some of any new order to allow for more 10 car inner suburban routes as well, with the displaced 450s being used on most of the existing 450/444 operated routes to allow more services to run as 8, 10 or 12 car. But it would be difficult to predict one specific service group. They might even allow for a 450 on the Lymington branch all week by then...

First announcement (about 458/5s) 23/12/11:

The additional carriages will enable trains on the following routes to be lengthened from 8 to 10 cars:
Waterloo-Windsor & Eton (Riverside),
Waterloo-Weybridge via Brentford and Staines,
Waterloo-Hounslow via both Richmond and Brentford.
This will be achieved through the introduction of 60 Class 460 vehicles which will be combined with the existing Class 458 stock to form 36x5-car trains
An internal cascade will provide two additional Reading services in the morning and evening and one further Hounslow peak service into London Waterloo. It will also further lengthen seven South West Trains mainline services:
Morning peak
Southampton Airport Parkway to Waterloo (8 car to 12 car)
Portsmouth Harbour to Waterloo via Eastleigh (5 car to 10 car)
Southampton Central to Waterloo (4 car to 5 car)
Evening peak
Waterloo to Poole (5 car to 8 car)
Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour via Eastleigh (5 car to 8 car)
Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour via Eastleigh (8 car to 10 car)
Waterloo to Alton (8 car to 12 car)

Second announcement (456s) 8/05/12:

Mainline services:
0515 from Yeovil Junction (6 car to 9 car)
0543 from Salisbury (6 car to 9 car)
0600 from Haslemere (5 car to 8 car)
0642 from Basingstoke (6 car to 8 car)
0650 from Portsmouth Harbour via Eastleigh (8 car to 12 car)
0844 from Alton (5 car to 8 car)
1620 to Exeter (6 car to 8 car)
1720 to Exeter (6 car to 9 car)
1723 to Basingstoke (8 car to 12 car)
1741 to Basingstoke (8 car to 12 car)
1750 to Exeter (6 car to 8 car)
1841 to Basingstoke (8 car to 12 car)
Suburban services:
0717 from Guildford via Cobham (8 car to 10 car)
0807 from Guildford via Cobham (8 car to 10 car)
0817 from Woking (8 car to 10 car)
1702 Guildford via Woking (8 car to 12 car)
1732 Guildford via Woking 8 car to 12 car)
1757 Twickenham via Kingston (8 car to 10 car)
1848 Guildford via Cobham (8 car to 10 car)
Windsor lines:
1705 Aldershot via Richmond (4 car to 8 car)
1713 Teddington via Richmond (8 car to 10 car)
Additional services:
0722 from Raynes Park
0922 from Raynes Park

So it looks like your 'first bid', and other similar services, are already being looked at, even before the future order is delivered (assuming it happens).

 

[455driver]

WATERLOO TO READING IS NOT GETTING 10 COACH TRAINS!

Sorry for shouting but I have now posted this about 10 times!

The 450/5s displaced by the 458/5s on Weybridbge/Windsor/Hounslow services are having their 1st class reinstated and be renumbered back to their original 450/0 number and will be used (as 8 coachs) on the Readings, intermediate stations from Virginia Water to Reading are not being extended!

 

[swt_passenger]

I think in this context surreyman is referring to the future CP5 proposal for 10 car trains to Reading, but that decision is yet to be made either way?

Are you now saying it is definitely not happening - ever?

Page 73 of this: http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...e plans/overarching cp5 enhancements plan.pdf

 

[455driver]

No, just that there are no firm plans at the moment.

Who knows what will happen in the future.

 

[swt_passenger]

No, just that there are no firm plans at the moment.

Who knows what will happen in the future.

Ah good - I'm reassured then.

My own thoughts were that IF the CP5 proposal gets confirmed THEN a further order will have to be be made. Certain recent magazine articles, (such as May's Modern Railways) are putting a much more positive spin on it happening.

 

[Monty]

I think the point 455driver is trying to make is that there is no firm commitment to 10 car trains on the Reading road as of yet. You are looking at beyond 2019 at the earliest, i doubt we'll get any extra new trains either. Perhaps extra 450 trailers if we are lucky.

 

[tbtc]

there will be around 24+ 450s surplus and available for beefing up other routes, anyone like to hazard a guess as to where and what?

Going off topic, but presumably these could become "350s" fairly easily? (so any future cascade may not be limited to the SWT area)

 

[JamesRowden]

I think the point 455driver is trying to make is that there is no firm commitment to 10 car trains on the Reading road as of yet. You are looking at beyond 2019 at the earliest, i doubt we'll get any extra new trains either. Perhaps extra 450 trailers if we are lucky.

The Waterloo-Reading services cannot run as 10-car at present due to the rating of the electrification on the west of the route. However, it was announced that there will be four extra peak services between Waterloo and Reading.

 

[Monty]

The Waterloo-Reading services cannot run as 10-car at present due to the rating of the electrifiaction on the west of the route. However, it was announced that there will be four extra peak services between Waterloo and Reading by July 2014.

The whole infrastructure isnt there to facilitate longer trains, the power supply only being part of the problem. But as I said there is no firm commitment for longer trains and the associated infrastructure upgrades. To my knowledge the extra Readings are to be diagrammed with Class 455s.

 

[JamesRowden]

The whole infrastructure isnt there to facilitate longer trains, the power supply only being part of the problem. But as I said there is no firm commitment for longer trains and the associated infrastructure upgrades. To my knowledge the extra Readings are to be diagrammed with Class 455s.

What infrastructure limitations are there apart from the power supply and platforms not being long enough (could be solved using selective door opening)?

The platforms at Reading that serve the Waterloo trains are now 12-car (were 8-car before upgrade) and the former international platforms at Waterloo are surely long enough.

 

[swt_passenger]

What infrastructure limitations are there apart from the power supply and platforms not being long enough (could be solved using selective door opening)?

The platforms at Reading that serve the Waterloo trains are now 12-car (were 8-car before upgrade) and the former international platforms at Waterloo are surely long enough.

Platforms from Virginia Water to Earley need extending for 10 car operation. That's one of the relevant CP5 projects, the other is 'Wessex traction power supply upgrade, also in the linked document above. (Shown on page 71.) As Monty points out above this is 2019 onwards stuff.

The other international platforms (ie 21 - 24) are not really usable without further infrastructure alterations in the station throat. All Eurostar had to achieve was a couple of trains per hour as far as the flyover.

But getting back to the original question, it was really proposing that when/if this ever happens, it will then be possible to strengthen mainline services. I was aimimg to explain that a certain amount of mainline strengthening is already announced as part of the confirmed rolling stock changes anyway...

Any CP5 possibilities have become a bit of a distraction...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think the point 455driver is trying to make is that there is no firm commitment to 10 car trains on the Reading road as of yet.

I agree. That's what I meant in the post just before yours by putting IF in capitals...

 

[Monty]

What infrastructure limitations are there apart from the power supply and platforms not being long enough (could be solved using selective door opening)?

The platforms at Reading that serve the Waterloo trains are now 12-car (were 8-car before upgrade) and the former international platforms at Waterloo are surely long enough.

SDO on 60% of stations the Reading services call at is impractical and unworkable on such a busy route. Also if platforms are lengthened in some cases signals will need to be moved, as is the case already with many of the ongoing extensions.

 

[Goldfish62]

I think the point 455driver is trying to make is that there is no firm commitment to 10 car trains on the Reading road as of yet. You are looking at beyond 2019 at the earliest, i doubt we'll get any extra new trains either. Perhaps extra 450 trailers if we are lucky.

Why 2019 at the latest? CP5 runs 2014-19, does it not? It would be during that time period that Reading line platforms would be extended. According to Modern Railways SWT are currently negotiating with the DfT for an order due for delivery in total by 2016.

It does all fit in well with 10 car Reading trains. Unless of course the 458/5s revert to outer-suburban configuration, transfer back to the Reading line and the new trains are for the inner-suburban....

 

[swt_passenger]

Why 2019 at the latest? CP5 runs 2014-19, does it not? It would be during that time period that Reading line platforms would be extended. According to Modern Railways SWT are currently negotiating with the DfT for an order due for delivery in total by 2016.

Well those are the dates published in January, that's the main reason. The GRIP stages for the platform work are shown in the CP5 enhancement plans as:

GRIP 2 - 25/03/11 - pre-feasibility
GRIP 3 - 30/06/14 - option selection
GRIP 4 - 30/06/16 - single option development
GRIP 5-8 - 31/03/19 - detailed design, construction, handback etc.

That suggests starting about mid 2017 to me, with completion BY 2019. Looks like Modern Railways could be getting ahead of themselves...

 

[Eagle]

Going off topic, but presumably these could become "350s" fairly easily? (so any future cascade may not be limited to the SWT area)

At least some are going to have to get pantographs anyway, otherwise they won't be able to run south of Basingstoke.

 

[swt_passenger]

At least some are going to have to get pantographs anyway, otherwise they won't be able to run south of Basingstoke.

But as I think he explained in Modern Railways previously, they are effectively still only playing catch up with the stock they need. Labour's original rolling stock plan suggested SWT should have got 105 additional 'NEW vehicles' by about now - and that's broadly what the 458/5 and 456 projects achieve, if they happen on time.

So if that accounts for the growth that was expected back in 2008, the probability of any units becoming available for release to other areas of the country must be vanishingly small.

 

[Helvellyn]

If it all comes off it seems CP5 will see 10-cars on the Readings. Evidence is mounting that this is going to happen sooner rather than later. The biggest pointer is the fitting of new traction packs to the 455 fleet, which will effectively double the amount of miles they can run before requiring attention at Wimbledon. This isn't being done to facilitate 458/5 maintenance, as work is already in hand for that (bogie drop at Wimbledon; additional sidings at Guildford and Farnham). The 455 new traction package is designed to allow Wimbledon to maintain more stock for expanded services without building new maintenance facilities elsewhere.

Supposedly there was a SWT/Network Rail conference last month where management were told that CP5 plans are for additional stock; platform lengthening Virginia Water to Reading and power supply upgrades. So Modern Railways isn't getting ahead of itself when it talks of 40 5-car EMUs for SWT in the 2016 onwards timeframe. In fact, it has been suggested that the new EMUs will displace the 458/5s back to Reading services (might explain why they are being painted blue) with the new EMUs for the Windsor suburban services. The displaced 450s from the Reading services would then see virtually everything on the mainline side operating as 10-car or 12-car services. 450s could also then go back on the Ascot-Guildfords, allowing the 456s to strengthen a lot of 8-car 455 services to 10-cars after Waterloo platform lengthening.

From what I've been told the SWT/Network Rail alliance plan a lot of invetsment in the next 6 years!

 

[tbtc]

the probability of any units becoming available for release to other areas of the country must be vanishingly small

I was just thinking that the Government could use SWT as a location for brand new stock and then cascade existing stock there elsewhere - in the way that they are doing with Southern.

For example, a large order of new stock for SWT would free up some 450s for LM who will presumably need extra EMUs in a few years time (Chase Line electrification, Coventry - Nuneaton electrification) - that kind of thing.

 

[455driver]

Its probably easier just to buy more units with some being AC/DC for SWT (the overhead bit will probably be on its way by then) and some being AC only for LM (or whoever) rather than buy a new fleet for SWT and converting some older units for use elsewhere.

 

[swt_passenger]

Its probably easier just to buy more units with some being AC/DC for SWT (the overhead bit will probably be on its way by then) and some being AC only for LM (or whoever) rather than buy a new fleet for SWT and converting some older units for use elsewhere.

I'd go further and suggest that given the comparative fleet sizes, ie 127:30 it would be more logical to convert 350/1s into 450s, and buy LM the all new units!

 

[David Goddard]

The whole infrastructure isnt there to facilitate longer trains, the power supply only being part of the problem. But as I said there is no firm commitment for longer trains and the associated infrastructure upgrades. To my knowledge the extra Readings are to be diagrammed with Class 455s.

Are you serious? Its bad enough when the 455s deputise on the Reading line, let alone being regular workings. No First Class and No toilets on a journey of 1h17 will not be received well.

 

[Monty]

Are you serious? Its bad enough when the 455s deputise on the Reading line, let alone being regular workings. No First Class and No toilets on a journey of 1h17 will not be received well.

These are in addition to the current timetabled service and will be advertised with no first class from the outset, as for no toilets it's still within the limit and since the peak Readings are nearly always full and standing you can't really get to the toilets in the first place.

(Hey it's my 617th post, some one playing me the theme tune from the dambusters )

 

[Goldfish62]

I think the point 455driver is trying to make is that there is no firm commitment to 10 car trains on the Reading road as of yet.

Yes there is. It's committed and funded:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=30064785772

 

[tbtc]

Sorry for going off topic, but were the Reading SWT services four/hour once upon a time?

 

[Goldfish62]

These are in addition to the current timetabled service and will be advertised with no first class from the outset, as for no toilets it's still within the limit and since the peak Readings are nearly always full and standing you can't really get to the toilets in the first place.

Where would the 455s come from? When they recently substituted for 458s due to the latter's maintenance issues inner suburban services had to be cancelled to source the trains. And I don't think the 456s are entering service until later in the year once they're refurbished.

BTW, it's perfectly easy to get to the toilets west of Feltham (not that you really want to given the state they're usually in).:roll:

 

[Monty]

Where would the 455s come from? When they recently substituted for 458s due to the latter's maintenance issues inner suburban services had to be cancelled to source the trains. And I don't think the 456s are entering service until later in the year once they're refurbished.:

The 456's will initially enter service in their current form, they will be refurbished over the course of 2014.

BTW, it's perfectly easy to get to the toilets west of Feltham (not that you really want to given the state they're usually in).:roll:

I was only being semi serious I imagine if we had spare Desiros we would use them, but we don't. Some how train planning has come up with a way of making 455s available for the extra services, don't ask me how they've done it.

 

[David Goddard]

Sorry for going off topic, but were the Reading SWT services four/hour once upon a time?

They were for a few years broadly between 1997-2004 (I think- will take a while to get my old timetables out)

You had the xx20 and xx50 services as now, plus xx05 and xx35 calling Vauxhall, Clapham Junction, Putney, Hounslow, Feltham, Ashford, Staines, Egham, Sunningdale, Ascot, Martins Heron, Bracknell, Wokingham and Reading. Ended up being just seven minutes in front of following train at Egham, but restored the gap with non stop run into Reading.

At that time, the xx20 and xx50 were normally VEP operated and carried route code 38, while the xx05 and xx35 were typically a CIG/CEP combination with route code 37. Was living in Wokingham at the time and if going into Reading would always try to get the extras for the non stop run in a CIG.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

They were for a few years broadly between 1997-2004 (I think- will take a while to get my old timetables out)

You had the xx20 and xx50 services as now, plus xx05 and xx35 calling Vauxhall, Clapham Junction, Putney, Hounslow, Feltham, Ashford, Staines, Egham, Sunningdale, Ascot, Martins Heron, Bracknell, Wokingham and Reading. Ended up being just seven minutes in front of following train at Egham, but restored the gap with non stop run into Reading.

At that time, the xx20 and xx50 were normally VEP operated and carried route code 38, while the xx05 and xx35 were typically a CIG/CEP combination with route code 37. Was living in Wokingham at the time and if going into Reading would always try to get the extras for the non stop run in a CIG.

Weren't the paths for those round the Hounslow loop taken over by the Weybridge services?

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes there is. It's committed and funded:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=30064785772

Sorry, but the work in that document in not committed or funded until ORR signs off the CP5 plans in March next year. It is currently just an ongoing part of the NR response to the DfT's HLOS, following similar timescales to what they did for CP4.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was only being semi serious I imagine if we had spare Desiros we would use them, but we don't. Some how train planning has come up with a way of making 455s available for the extra services, don't ask me how they've done it.

But SWT announced the extra peak Reading services as part of the internal cascade allowed for by the 458/5s coming into service, so 6 months before the 456s were first mentioned. Maybe it's achieved as a knock on effect of there being 36 x 458/5s? (The two services in each peak are mentioned in those lists in my first reply to this thread.)