SWT Penalty Fare advice

[Uzair]

Hi everyone,

I (very unexpectedly) have just been issued a penalty fare for fare evasion by a member of staff at Wimbledon. I am slightly perplexed as to why I have been charged but I'll give you the details. The whole journey was done on Oyster.

Overall journey: Waterloo NR to Southfields

I did the following journey on the presumption that taking a non stop train to Surbiton then a train from Surbiton to Wimbledon would be quicker than taking a stopping service from Waterloo to Wimbledon.

I touched in at Waterloo NR and boarded the 18:23 SWT service to Basingstoke. When we arrived at Surbiton I got off the train and then proceeded straight away to platform 1 to take a non stop train to Wimbledon. When I got off the train at Wimbledon I walked up the stairs and the SWT staff were standing at the top. A woman scanned my Oyster card and took me to the side and issued me a penalty fare for fare evasion because I did not pay for the WIM-SUR part of the journey or something along those lines. After being issued the penalty fare I went down to the District line platforms and touched out at Southfields with no extraordinary amount of money being taken off my Oyster card.

As I said, I'm not too sure whether I should have been issued the penalty fare. If I should have, then that's fine and I'll pay it because it was an honest mistake. Should I appeal it?

 

[transportphoto]

What were you charged for your journey overall? If it was just a zone 1-3 single fare, then I think she was right to PF you, as you travelled to Surbiton (zone 6) without paying a zone 1-6 fare. You must pay for all zones you travel through on Oyster, not just the ones you start and end your journey in.

But surely once you're touched in, you're in? If you touch out and the system doesn't realise you travelled via zone six then that's the system's fault?!

TP

 

[maniacmartin]

You might want to read Oyster Conditions of Use on National rail services - applicable from 26 August 2011 (PDF 164KB) . Specifically, it states:

They apply in addition to the conditions set
out in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, which you can view and download from the
National Rail website www.nationalrail.co.uk/conditionsofcarriage. Where these Conditions
of Use differ from the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, these Conditions of Use take
precedence when you are using your Oyster card.
1.2 When travelling on National Rail services, you will also have to comply with the Railway
Byelaws. You can a get free copy of these at most staffed National Rail stations, or download a copy from the Department for Transport website www.dft.gov.uk.

Therefore, I read this as stating that the permitted routes when travelling solely on National Rail are the ones defined in the NRCoC, which would not include doubling back between Surbiton and Wimbledon.

That said, I'm surprised you received a Penalty Fare for this.

 

[CNash]

But surely once you're touched in, you're in? If you touch out and the system doesn't realise you travelled via zone six then that's the system's fault?!

TP

*edited to avoid misleading the OP through speculation*

I'm now a tad out of my (admittedly shallow) depth with the intricacies of the Oyster system, and will defer to someone more knowledgable, like MikeWh.

 

[yorkie]

I'm with an RPI right now, whose opinion is that you can only be charged a PF if you fail to show a valid ticket (under circumstances) on demand, or fail to show a validated Oyster card (or there was some supporting document required to validate the ticket that was not present e.g. a Railcard).

Your Oyster card was validated, and you HAVE PAID for your journey, so there should be absolutely no issue at all.

I would advise you to appeal the Penalty Fare and NOT to pay it. I will be more than happy to proof read any letter you wish to send. Please PM me with a draft.

 

[CNash]

Having now read up on maximum journey times and doubling back on Oyster, I apologise to the OP for any confusion my earlier posts may have caused.

Though I definitely now see how the OP's RPI had come to the conclusion that a Penalty Fare was due - if you're familiar with the Oyster rule that you must pay for (or have a Travelcard covering) zones that you travel through (so a journey of Shepherd's Bush to Mile End is a Z1-2 journey as you've gone through zone 1 despite starting and ending in zone 2), it's easy to assume that this would also apply to doubling back.

 

[maniacmartin]

if you're familiar with the Oyster rule that you must pay for (or have a Travelcard covering) zones that you travel through

I don't think this mythical rule exists. You must pay the appropriate single fare, as shown by TfL's single fare finder, but these are set based on zones of routes they think you'll travel through amongst other factors.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Though I definitely now see how the OP's RPI had come to the conclusion that a Penalty Fare was due -

Isn't the real question whether the Oyster Card is valid for journeys via Surbiton? If you ask National rail enquiries for a Waterloo - Wimbledon journey and a Waterloo - Wimbledon journey via Surbiton, it gives different answers for the fare.

 

[yorkie]

Of course Oyster PAYG is valid for journeys via Surbiton - it's within the Oyster area.

As for the Zones, that does not come into it, that is applicable to Travelcards only, and providing a Travelcard holder is touched in, and have sufficient PAYG balance, then they are not eligible for a Penalty Fare, even if they go beyond their Zones, either.

Let's not confuse the matter here!

I will give an example to dispel the myths that appear in this thread.

If an LU ticket inspector was to inspect an Oyster card holding a Travelcard from Zones 1-3, on a Metropolitan train between Finchley Rd & Wembley Park, then providing the customer had touched in, then they would NOT be liable to pay a Penalty Fare. The fact that the Oyster system will not charge them for Zone 4 is of no concern to the Customer, nor Revenue staff.

 

[maniacmartin]

Except the example isn't on NR so different terms and conditions apply. The example also doesn't involve doubling back.

 

[yorkie]

1) See Oyster Conditions of Use. The OP is not in any breach of any of these conditions. There is no material difference between the Oyster conditions of use for TfL and National Rail services.
2) Yes, it does, the passenger could be travelling to Neasden.

 

[RJ]

I did the following journey on the presumption that taking a non stop train to Surbiton then a train from Surbiton to Wimbledon would be quicker than taking a stopping service from Waterloo to Wimbledon.

I don't understand this logic at all. 16 minutes on a direct service from Waterloo to Wimbledon running every 3-6 minutes isn't exactly an excessively long journey. Going by a route that would have taken more than twice as long on the basis it would have been quicker doesn't make any sense. If you are going to appeal, you have to come up with a better reason for explaining the journey you did, i.e because you just like travelling on fast trains.

That said, the important point of note is that with Oyster, you only have to touch in at the beginning of your journey and touch out when leaving railway premises. You can take whatever route you like in between, so long as you don't leave the area where Oyster is valid. If you wish to take a route longer than the most direct route for any reason, that is your prerogative.

Unless the RPI could prove you left the station at Surbiton without touching out then in again, she had no business issuing a Penalty Fare. I'm going to guess it was significantly longer than 16 minutes since you touched in at Waterloo?

 

[CNash]

If an LU ticket inspector was to inspect an Oyster card holding a Travelcard from Zones 1-3, on a Metropolitan train between Finchley Rd & Wembley Park, then providing the customer had touched in, then they would NOT be liable to pay a Penalty Fare. The fact that the Oyster system will not charge them for Zone 4 is of no concern to the Customer, nor Revenue staff.

So if, for example, I wanted to travel from Acton Central to Waterloo via Richmond, could I do so on a Zones 1-3 Travelcard, despite passing through Zone 4, without any danger of penalty?

 

[RJ]

So if, for example, I wanted to travel from Acton Central to Waterloo via Richmond, could I do so on a Zones 1-3 Travelcard, despite passing through Zone 4, without any danger of penalty?

On Oyster yes, so long as you touched in. On paper, no.

Oyster is quite good if you know how to work it. The main hustle is legitmately circumventing the Zone 1 levies.

 

[MikeWh]

This PF was completely wrong unless there is proof that you left the station at Surbiton without touching out or in again. When using Oyster you only have to touch in at the start of a journey and touch out at the end within the prescribed maximum journey time. You cannot be off-route while within the Oyster area.

 

[455driver]

I thought there were some (green?) readers at some stations to validate the route you take?
Although there wouldnt be any at Surbiton because it is the limit of oyster validity.

If the zones are irrelevant then you are saying its okay to travel across London from zone 3 to zone 3 travelling through zone 1 and be charged the zone 3 only fare, that isnt going to work.

2Axx depart WAT xx23 arrive SUR xx39
2Gxx depart SUR xx42 arrive WIM xx50.

So it will take 27 minutes if you can get across the bridge in 3 minutes instead of the sensible journey of going direct from Waterloo to Wimbledon in 16 minutes.
It takes the same time to get from Waterloo to Surbiton on the fast train (16 minutes) than it takes to get the stopper from Waterloo to Wimbledon so the OPs excuse/reason doesnt stand up either.

 

[MikeWh]

I thought there were some (green?) readers at some stations to validate the route you take?
Although there wouldnt be any at Surbiton because it is the limit of oyster validity.

They are pink and they do validate routes where a cheaper fare exists when travelling via a station. They never validate more expensive routes.

If the zones are irrelevant then you are saying its okay to travel across London from zone 3 to zone 3 travelling through zone 1 and be charged the zone 3 only fare, that isnt going to work.

No, you're right. Oyster will charge the appropriate fare for the overall journey taking account of any relevant via points.

2Axx depart WAT xx23 arrive SUR xx39
2Gxx depart SUR xx42 arrive WIM xx50.

So it will take 27 minutes if you can get across the bridge in 3 minutes instead of the sensible journey of going direct from Waterloo to Wimbledon in 16 minutes.
It takes the same time to get from Waterloo to Surbiton on the fast train (16 minutes) than it takes to get the stopper from Waterloo to Wimbledon so the OPs excuse doesnt stand up either.

If he's only done what he said then he's not done anything wrong. It may have been foolish in terms of his stated objective, but that doesn't automatically make it wrong.

 

[455driver]

It was a tongue in cheek comment, I will edit it out.

Oh thanks for the info about the readers, I wasnt sure what colour they were.

 

[Uzair]

Thanks for the information guys.

455driver - It's the first time I've ever done that journey. I can see why it doesn't stand up but it was a genuine mistake for doing it, and for thinking it was quicker. It's not an excuse, it's a reason. As I've said I haven't purposely done anything wrong so I'm still more than happy to pay the PF if it was issued on the correct terms to me.

Oh, and I've been thinking, there is no proof at all I went to Surbiton. Someone could have been wanting to travel from Waterloo to Wimbledon and fell asleep on the train and woken up at Raynes Park, New Malden, Surbiton or wherever and wanted to travel back to Wimbledon and could have been in the position as me. There seems to be no logical reason for why I was given the PF.

My Oyster history shows Waterloo - Wimbledon as the journey made by the way.

 

[jb]

Oh, and I've been thinking, there is no proof at all I went to Surbiton.

Well if you were stopped at the top of the stairs from P5, and your train was fast from Surbiton, it's a reasonable enough conclusion to constitute proof I would think.

 

[Uzair]

Well if you were stopped at the top of the stairs from P5, and your train was fast from Surbiton, it's a reasonable enough conclusion to constitute proof I would think.

It's proof that I went to a station west of Wimbledon. but not Surbiton. The logic they seem to have used for issuing the penalty fare is the same as in the example I gave above. If I fell asleep on the train intending to get off at Wimbledon but woke up at Raynes Park, I would still be in the same/similar situation.

 

[Ivo]

Well if you were stopped at the top of the stairs from P5, and your train was fast from Surbiton, it's a reasonable enough conclusion to constitute proof I would think.

Sorry, but I have to wholeheartedly disagree with this.

Unless the RPIs (etc) at the top of the stairs actually saw the OP alighting from the Surbiton service, in which case all the previous discussion kicks in which clears the OP entirely, then what evidence is there that (s)he was even on this service? It is quite normal for even "normals" to wait around for a while on a platform, while trains pass by and even stop. They may be using seeing people off, or reading the Standard, or using the facilities (a good one a Wimbledon considering its size, which may necessitate changing platforms). So long as you don't exceed the permitted journey times (MikeWh will know all about these) then there is no reason why a passenger can't do this.

 

[jb]

Whatever, I don't really know why the OP brought it up. I supposed it might have been raised as a possible line of dispute or defence to the PF, somewhat strangely given the far clearer and more unequivocal lines of defence already raised.

 

[Uzair]

Whatever, I don't really know why the OP brought it up. I supposed it might have been raised as a possible line of dispute or defence to the PF, somewhat strangely given the far clearer and more unequivocal lines of defence already raised.

Brought what up? Nothing's hidden from what I've told you. The tone I seem to get from you is that I have purposely done something wrong, which is fine. I haven't.


Update: Called Oyster today to sort out an incomplete journey and spoke to him about what happened who said I should not have been given a PF because once you touch in with Oyster, an amount of money is taken off your card already, so I did have a valid ticket per say.

 

[OwlMan]

You were wrongly issued with a Penalty fare. Under the NRCoC for Oyster (link provided by Yorkie) when using PAYG on National rail your only requirements are to touch in at the beginning of your journey, touch out at the end and not leave the PAYG oyster zones. You have no other responsibilities.

 

[ainsworth74]

I also agree with the above. The OP has complied with the NRCoC for Oyster and as such the PF has been issued in error. For the avoidance of all doubt the specific section states:

3.13 At the station where you start your journey, you must touch your Oyster card flat on a yellow card reader (see clause 3.4) at the station. A charge, as set by the Train Companies and TfL, will be deducted from the balance on your Oyster card. You will not be allowed to start your journey unless you have a sufficient pay as you go credit on your Oyster card as is deemed necessary by the Train Operators and TfL for you to pay for your journey.

At the end of your journey, you must touch your Oyster card flat on a yellow card reader at the station as you exit. The amount deducted at the start of your journey will, as required, be adjusted so that you only pay the advertised Oyster single fare for the journey made.

If you do not touch in at the station where you start your journey and touch out at the station where you end your journey, you may be charged more than the advertised Oyster single fare, and any daily price cap to which you may be entitled will not apply. You may also be liable to a Penalty Fare and/or you may be prosecuted.

The OP touched in at Waterloo as required and then touched out at Southfield's after changing at Wimbledon. I am unclear in what way they've failed to follow through on their obligations here?

 

[Airlink]

So if, for example, I wanted to travel from Acton Central to Waterloo via Richmond, could I do so on a Zones 1-3 Travelcard, despite passing through Zone 4, without any danger of penalty?

No, unless you swipe the "pink" validators at Richmond, but by doing so you'll be charged for travelling through Zone 4.

As for the OP, I can't see any reason for travelling from Waterloo to Wimbledon via Surbiton, something not quite right there.:-?

 

[Greenback]

This PF was completely wrong unless there is proof that you left the station at Surbiton without touching out or in again. When using Oyster you only have to touch in at the start of a journey and touch out at the end within the prescribed maximum journey time. You cannot be off-route while within the Oyster area.

This corresponds with my own understanding, but I am never certain of the vagaries of the Oyster system, given that I do not have cause to use it very often.

I am glad to have my limited understanding of how it works confirmed!

If he's only done what he said then he's not done anything wrong. It may have been foolish in terms of his stated objective, but that doesn't automatically make it wrong.

I agree. I can't see that the Op has broken any rule sor that they deserve a Penalty Fare.

You were wrongly issued with a Penalty fare.

Again, I agree.

Under the NRCoC for Oyster (link provided by Yorkie) when using PAYG on National rail your only requirements are to touch in at the beginning of your journey, touch out at the end and not leave the PAYG oyster zones. You have no other responsibilities.

Once again, that corresponds with my limited knowledge. There are such a variety of routes available it woudl surely be impossible to try and enforce any sort of routeing guide, meaning that you just pay for the actual journey registered. In this case, it is Waterloo (touched in) to Southfields (touched out).

When I have used Oyster myself, it has merely recorded the start and end points, if you don't use any vlaidation points on the way, and you ar ewithin the accepted journey time window, how does it know any different?

 

[MikeWh]

So if, for example, I wanted to travel from Acton Central to Waterloo via Richmond, could I do so on a Zones 1-3 Travelcard, despite passing through Zone 4, without any danger of penalty?

No, unless you swipe the "pink" validators at Richmond, but by doing so you'll be charged for travelling through Zone 4.

As for the OP, I can't see any reason for travelling from Waterloo to Wimbledon via Surbiton, something not quite right there.:-?

I am quite staggered by some of the mis-information being spouted in this thread. The pink validator has nothing to do with this scenario. They only validate a route where a cheaper fare might apply. The default fare for Acton Central to Waterloo NR is a zone 1-4 NR single and via Richmond is the intended route. The fact that it is the default route is what will determine that using a zone 1-3 travelcard will result in a zone 4 PAYG fare being deducted.

Interestingly, in the peak hours it is cheaper to travel to Waterloo LU from Acton Central (via Gunnersbury and Westminster) but off-peak is cheaper via Richmond to Waterloo NR.

 

[RJ]

It was a tongue in cheek comment, I will edit it out.

I read the original post and found it in very poor taste.

I will hand it to you - you have acquired the skill of being able to pull off dry wit and in some threads, it adds to the debate for those of us who appreciate it. In this case, we have a poster who has come on here to seek assistance over the unfortunate position they have found themselves in. Personally, although it was a journey of a slightly unusual nature, I believe they haven't actually done anything in breach of the rules at all. The Penalty Fare was wrongly issued.

The last thing we need is off duty staff wading in and slagging off passengers who have been issued with Penalty Fares or subject to some other punitive measure. Condoning the questionable and sometimes downright out of order practices of your revenue protection counterparts, especially where it is apparent the passenger hasn't done anything wrong isn't justifiable.

There are other forums out there where it is commonplace to see people purporting to be staff spending their spare time moaning about customers of the railway - but this isn't one of them. I urge you and anyone else it applies to for that matter, to please bear that in mind when reading posts in this section of the forum.