SWT Oyster facilities withdrawal

[radamfi]

Why not just use Oyster or an ITSO based product instead of another pointless expense? It's bad enough the amount of GLA taxpayers money that was spent in acquiring the rights to Oyster.

If Oyster continues indefinitely then there would be little financial advantage to TfL/TOCs in having contactless cards as an additional payment method, except to enable the withdrawal of cash from buses. There's a case for saying that ITSO/Oyster is just for season tickets and contactless payment would be for pay as you go travel nationwide.

The main problem here is the inability for some people to access basic banking facilities, which should be remedied as a matter of urgency.

 

[Daz28]

How do you prove that you have touched in with a contactless payment card? As far as I know you cannot use a reader to check the recent transactions on such a card.

I don't think they work like Oyster where you can touch in and touch out and it works out the correct fare.

At present there is a maximum of £20 that can be paid with a contactless card.

London Buses are fine using them as they are a single flat fare deducted on entry. I don't think contactless cards will ever be able to do what Oyster and ITSO cards are capable of.

 

[radamfi]

Nothing is written to the contactless card when using it on London buses, as far as I know. If you get an inspector on the bus, the driver gives him a printout of the card numbers of the contactless card numbers used on the bus. Also, there is no immediate debit of the card when you touch in, as the bus doesn't have a connection to the banking system. When TfL daily capping for contactless cards comes in next year, you will only have one transaction on your card each day no matter how much travelling you do. So I assume that the ticket barriers will record card numbers and they will calculate your total fares in a batch process overnight.

 

[bicbasher]

Nothing is written to the contactless card when using it on London buses, as far as I know. If you get an inspector on the bus, the driver gives him a printout of the card numbers of the contactless card numbers used on the bus. Also, there is no immediate debit of the card when you touch in, as the bus doesn't have a connection to the banking system

Which once again won't be available to those with Visa Debit cards which work as if they're ex Solo or Electron as they need to be live, which as we've seen here when passengers try and pay for tickets from the guard using chip and pin.

I agree with you that the banking system needs to change for basic users, yet I can't see any incentives for them to provide beyond the basics.

 

[Clip]

Possibly a stupid question, but isn't there some rule that TOCS are required to sell all available tickets where facilities are in place?

You must remember that Oyster is merely a medium for carrying your ticket on. I presume they are still going to be selling the zonal travelcards albeit on paper? If so then they are fulfilling that rule.

 

[Tibbs]

You must remember that Oyster is merely a medium for carrying your ticket on. I presume they are still going to be selling the zonal travelcards albeit on paper? If so then they are fulfilling that rule.

So to get your free tickets could you get the ticket on paper then get it put on your oyster somewhere else?

Bit long winded but could work?

 

[cjohnson]

You must remember that Oyster is merely a medium for carrying your ticket on. I presume they are still going to be selling the zonal travelcards albeit on paper? If so then they are fulfilling that rule.

Is that still the case? TfL say

"You need an Oyster card to:
Use pay as you go and daily price capping
Buy 7 Day, Monthly and longer period Travelcards

I'm mainly annoyed that the change seems to absolve SWT of paying out any customer charter/void period discounts for passengers who choose to have a season on Oyster, whereas a passenger who holds the same ticket on a paper travelcard (if still available?) is entitled to said discounts.

Travelcard Season Tickets
If you bought a Travelcard* valid for one month or longer from one of our ticket offices or our Customer Service Centre and you normally travel on South West Trains services, you will also be able to claim one of the discounts detailed in the Passenger's Charter compensation section above.
If you bought your Travelcard** from anywhere other than a South West Trains outlet, we will consider your claim if you have proof that you use South West Trains for all or part of your journey (for example, a home or work address close to a South West Trains station and details of the journey you make). Please write to our Customer Service Centre if making a claim, enclosing your old ticket together with a photocopy of your new ticket.
* This applies to either traditional paper tickets with a magnetic strip or Oyster cards where you are able to produce your Annual Season Ticket record card or your receipt for Monthly or longer Season Tickets.
** We cannot offer compensation for Travelcards issued on an Oyster card if it was not bought at a South West Trains outlet.

 

[island]

They could get a pre-paid contactless card which does not need a credit or identity check.

As far as I know there are no pre-paid contactless cards, as contactless transactions are always offline and pre-paid cards are online only.

 

[radamfi]

As far as I know there are no pre-paid contactless cards, as contactless transactions are always offline and pre-paid cards are online only.

What about the Orange Cash card?

If contactless transactions are always offline, how come I can see transactions from my Orange Cash card on the website immediately after purchase?

 

[Deerfold]

Nothing is written to the contactless card when using it on London buses, as far as I know. If you get an inspector on the bus, the driver gives him a printout of the card numbers of the contactless card numbers used on the bus. Also, there is no immediate debit of the card when you touch in, as the bus doesn't have a connection to the banking system. When TfL daily capping for contactless cards comes in next year, you will only have one transaction on your card each day no matter how much travelling you do. So I assume that the ticket barriers will record card numbers and they will calculate your total fares in a batch process overnight.

That's pretty much all correct - though there's a trial of contactless cards taking place this year (only cards numbers in a small range will work) on TfL rail services.

This may attempt to do weekly capping too - though it sounds like it'll only be for a start day of Monday.

 

[radamfi]

That's pretty much all correct - though there's a trial of contactless cards taking place this year (only cards numbers in a small range will work) on TfL rail services.

This may attempt to do weekly capping too - though it sounds like it'll only be for a start day of Monday.

Yes, I've heard about this pilot of contactless cards by selected staff.

My question is, if you get checked on the train, how will the inspector know whether you've touched in?

My understanding is that weekly capping will only work from Monday to Sunday.

 

[Deerfold]

Yes, I've heard about this pilot of contactless cards by selected staff.

My question is, if you get checked on the train, how will the inspector know whether you've touched in?

Good question - though there are few on-train checks (I've been checked on an underground train once in 12 years of working in London). All stations have wi-fi, but I don't know if it will be possible to access the touch-in data.

My understanding is that weekly capping will only work from Monday to Sunday.

So I said.

 

[andrewkeith5]

What about the Orange Cash card?

If contactless transactions are always offline, how come I can see transactions from my Orange Cash card on the website immediately after purchase?

Contactless transactions are offline, mostly because the whole point of contactless is speed and most credit card connections are hopelessly slow (as anyone with an online-only card will know). The contactless limit is held on the card and only updated when an online chip and pin transaction is made.

However, that doesn't limit the number of times a card terminal will synchronise payments - at the next online payment, all of the offline payments will be sent up too. Given that contactless payments are normally in places of a high-turnover, it's likely that the next or next-but-one payment will cause a synchronisation to occur.
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Which once again won't be available to those with Visa Debit cards which work as if they're ex Solo or Electron as they need to be live, which as we've seen here when passengers try and pay for tickets from the guard using chip and pin.

I agree with you that the banking system needs to change for basic users, yet I can't see any incentives for them to provide beyond the basics.

I don't think I've ever had an online-only Visa Debit card...

...Visa Electron, however, is online-only...

 

[island]

I don't think I've ever had an online-only Visa Debit card...

...Visa Electron, however, is online-only...

As discussed elsewhere, there are plenty of online-only Visa debit cards in circulation.

 

[radamfi]

Good question - though there are few on-train checks (I've been checked on an underground train once in 12 years of working in London). All stations have wi-fi, but I don't know if it will be possible to access the touch-in data.So I said.

I assume the intention is for contactless payment to work on the National Rail network at stations without barriers? On National Rail, on train checks happen now and again. It is definitely happening on Overground, does Overground have RPIs on train?

 

[bicbasher]

I assume the intention is for contactless payment to work on the National Rail network at stations without barriers? On National Rail, on train checks happen now and again. It is definitely happening on Overground, does Overground have RPIs on train?

Yes, RPI's do board LO services.

 

[Deerfold]

I assume the intention is for contactless payment to work on the National Rail network at stations without barriers? On National Rail, on train checks happen now and again. It is definitely happening on Overground, does Overground have RPIs on train?

Yes, I was explaining how it might work in tunnels. On NR/LO would mostly be like being on a station on LU - communication is available, I don't know what the proposals/possibilities are to use it.

There's potentially going to a lot of data about - I'm not sure how feasible it is to get it to RPIs.