SWT Class 158/159 Front door out of use

[tmzmoz]

Recently ive been noticing the vast majority of SWT 158/159s have had their front door locked out of use. I noticed this on 2 separate units on Wednesday evening at both Southampton Central and Winchester.

Does anyone know why this is?

 

[387star]

Always been the case

Some union agreement with SWT to keep passengers away from the front vestibule immediately behind the driver ... When the key is in the relevant door becomes inoperable except an emergency

The guard can use a carriage key to,open the door if need be

Not sure if 444s are the same

 

[Scotrail84]

Recently ive been noticing the vast majority of SWT 158/159s have had their front door locked out of use. I noticed this on 2 separate units on Wednesday evening at both Southampton Central and Winchester.

Does anyone know why this is?

No idea why this is but if this the passenger door behind the driving cab then should the whole coach not be locked out of use?

 

[swt_passenger]

Back when they were delivered there was a safety concern about the driver having to get past passengers if getting in and out of the train to track level, particularly at signal telephones, and especially in four track areas with third rail.

The 442s also had a front lobby lock system out for the same reason.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not sure if 444s are the same

Definitely not, because they have crew doors in the cab which overcomes the perceived problem with 158 and 159 (and previously the 442).

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No idea why this is but if this the passenger door behind the driving cab then should the whole coach not be locked out of use?

No, because in the case of emergency it is possible for passengers to open it with a break glass switch.

 

[tsr]

Class 455 units, for example, have what is now a dedicated staff-only vestibule which used to have passenger door controls (these can be seen plated up, at least on Southern units) but now have driver & guard door controls only. You can also see on some units where there was a window-shaped hole in the sliding door to the saloon. There is still an intermediate hinged door to the driving position, complete with its own lock. This still maintains what, to me, is an acceptable level of passenger and staff access to the coach, as unlike the 158/159 units, there are still two sets of double doors per side which passengers may use. On the other hand, 158s/159s have the problem that unfamiliar users may head to the cab-end doors but find they are unable to be used, which can cause congestion. Perhaps they should be used strictly for entry only, as obviously passengers should normally only be entering at scheduled station stops when the guard should be on the platform (in case of some emergency arising) and the driver would in all likelihood be performing their routine duties. But then I can see there could be problems with passengers working out that the doors would eventually be opened from the outside and they'd wait to exit that way, or perhaps may remain in the vestibule after boarding.

 

[swt_passenger]

In my experience unfamiliar passengers either see the illuminated 'emergency exit only' sign above the door, or they don't get that far because other passengers warn them as they set off in that direction.

What is a poor feature is that the bodyside 'door out of order' light is used at the leading lobby, which suggests there is a fault, when it is really a normal feature. But a separate light giving a different message would have been a further expense...

 

[danhenkes]

I believe it is for extra driver protection, or so I have been told by a member of staff...

 

[RPM]

I can see the logic behind this. In fact I've always wondered how drivers can safely get onto the ballast in units where the only access is via the passenger saloon. It must be very difficult if the train is crush loaded. I suppose there is the front gangway door but it doesn't have a steps below it so not ideal. On pacers there isn't even that option.

 

[swt_passenger]

I believe it is for extra driver protection, or so I have been told by a member of staff...

That's just another variation on the same theme of ensuring safe unhindered access/egress for the driver.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I can see the logic behind this. In fact I've always wondered how drivers can safely get onto the ballast in units where the only access is via the passenger saloon. It must be very difficult if the train is crush loaded. I suppose there is the front gangway door but it doesn't have a steps below it so not ideal. On pacers there isn't even that option.

Simple a door release valve!

The saloon vestibule doors on a 159 lock automatically when the driver master switch is activated, the doors are then electronically locked, however should an emergency arise they can be opened & they can be opened by the guard with a key.

The saloon vestibule doors on 442s were meant to be kept locked at all times that the cab was in use. Some drivers complied with that instruction, others didn't. I always did.

That led to an argument one morning at a Hampshire station, with some bowler hatted toff who demanded to be let in the front door, I politely declined to and told him he had to use the next door back & he got right uppity (polite version) and he was so busy ranting at me demanding my name & I'll have you sacked... Blah, Blah, Blah, that he failed to notice that the guard had activated the doors, I had the road, got the interlock & bells and I left him there.

Never heard a thing about it, I put a report in about the matter at the time and was told I wouldn't anyway as I was following procedure!

Class 444's the saloon doors are not locked, although the lazy sods of Surrey just cannot be bothered to press the button to hold the doors open properly so use the emergency override button to make them stay open. They then whinge & whine about the air con not working properly.

WELL WHO'S FAULT IS THAT THEN? I suspect that they haven't paid their little minions fare to hold the door open for them! :roll:

Those doors do have a secret feature as do the cab doors! And beware never lean on either, because I taught one oink a lesson and that's if I hit a certain button, those doors open without warning! And despite me asking one oink not to do it, he persisted, so I got to a station and operated the button an aforementioned oink, landed squarely on his butt in my cab, with the retort from me "I told you... DON'T obstruct the doors or lean on them! GET IT!"

The passengers who saw this nearly wet themselves laughing. A couple offered their details saying that they would vouch for me, to say that I'd warned & asked the oink not to obstruct the doors or lean on them.

 

[455driver]

Recently ive been noticing the vast majority of SWT 158/159s have had their front door locked out of use. I noticed this on 2 separate units on Wednesday evening at both Southampton Central and Winchester.

Does anyone know why this is?

Recently? Its been like that for the last 20 years!

Yes but I will let all the dreamers post their cowmanure first!

 

[Segedunum]

Class 455 units, for example, have what is now a dedicated staff-only vestibule which used to have passenger door controls (these can be seen plated up, at least on Southern units) but now have driver & guard door controls only.

Some Northern 150s have these door controls but from experience the vestibule is normally locked or no one uses it anyway.

 

[Kite159]

Poor Woking passengers dashing to get onto the train with seconds to spare, only to head towards the front door, they just have to wait a few minutes for the next service.

"Upon arrival, the first set of doors will not open"

 

[swt_passenger]

Recently? Its been like that for the last 20 years!

You're reading to much into the question, it doesn't necessarily mean the original poster has been around 20 years to notice it...

 

[tmzmoz]

I have noticed that FGW do not have the same issue on their 158/159s?

 

[causton]

I have noticed that FGW do not have the same issue on their 158/159s?

Nope, only on SWT 158/159s. (FGWs are all 158s, not 159s, apart from the SWT hire-in one which can be a 159, which I suppose actually might have this "Front door out of use" problem?)

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I know they won't because of the cost but structurally could cab doors be retrofitted in place of the window (with a sliding window in them), without compromising the crash structure?

 

[causton]

I know they won't because of the cost but structurally could cab doors be retrofitted in place of the window (with a sliding window in them), without compromising the crash structure?

Probably not. And I don't think there is enough room for one to slide out without going either past the front of the unit if it slides forwards (could cause some clearance issues) or without hitting the existing doors behind if it slides backwards!

 

[Kite159]

Nope, only on SWT 158/159s. (FGWs are all 158s, not 159s, apart from the SWT hire-in one which can be a 159, which I suppose actually might have this "Front door out of use" problem?)

The SWT hire-in 158 is the same when working FGW routes (at least Trowbridge to Salisbury), the front door is locked out of use, apart from at Dilton Marsh

 

[455driver]

I know they won't because of the cost but structurally could cab doors be retrofitted in place of the window (with a sliding window in them), without compromising the crash structure?

What are you going to do with all the stuff on the sidewall of the cab?

 

[cjmillsnun]

I know they won't because of the cost but structurally could cab doors be retrofitted in place of the window (with a sliding window in them), without compromising the crash structure?

I doubt it, but even if you could, then you're looking at units that are over half their design life. To make such a modification would be very costly and no doubt, uneconomic.

 

[Goldfish62]

I have noticed that FGW do not have the same issue on their 158/159s?

This is true - including when they're working in third rail territory. Makes it extra confusing for the unwary passenger.

 

[cjmillsnun]

This is true - including when they're working in third rail territory. Makes it extra confusing for the unwary passenger.

It was an NSE stipulation. The FGW services in third rail land are ex Regional Railways and had different requirements.

 

[Parallel]

All of the doors on FGW's 158s do indeed open. If FGW have a SWT 158/159 hire in, it depends. I've been on both the "emergency exit" notice be disabled and the vestibule opened, but sometimes they're just left closed.

I remember last year a SWT 158 was covering a journey for a FGW 150 and the vestibule behind the driver was indeed locked out, except the train was very busy and Avoncliff is front door opening so the guard opened the local door (the locked out area at the front) and a group of passengers got on, and hung around in the locked out vestibule, which the guard asked them to move, so they ended up standing in the aisles (it was very busy this point) and the guard stayed in the locked area as he wouldn't have made it to the back of the train with approx 2 minutes to Freshford, then he opened the door at Freshford, and the group of people who got on at Avoncliff actually wanted to get off at Freshford and of course the carriage doors wouldn't open which they came through, so knocked on the window and then the guard realised and let them out! A bit of a drama!

The problem with the end doors being locked out means that dwell time increases at stations - Up to double the time it usually would I guess. But the obvious advantage is that it keeps the area near the driver clear.

 

[455driver]

They are looking into removing this feature as GSM-R has basically rendered it redundant.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

I was just going create a post about this item, as I often travel in the very front of the 158/159s from Waterloo to Exeter & Bristol T.M. and wondered why those doors were kept locked, often seeing people trying to board through them on the platform then having to rush to the other end of the carriage.

Another point I was going to raise about these units, is that almost always, those very front seats in the front coaches of these 3 car units are 4 seats either side of the aisle with a table which I like, but I did notice yesterday that on one of the services I was on, the seating in that area was airline style instead. I wondered why the seating in all units were not configured the same way?

I also noticed that inspite of a turn around time at Exeter St.D., of about 30 minutes. The train had not been cleaned, the table and chairs still had the debris that the passengers from the incoming service could not be bothered to put into the litter bins or take away with them. Including a squashed used tea bag on the seat! Ugh. Perhaps littering passengers should be made to go around the train with a bin bag doing a litter pick. (We had to do that at school if we were caught littering)

 

[swt_passenger]

There might be slight differences in the exact seating layout between the original 22 x 159/0s as delivered to NSE, and the 159/1s, which were converted around 2008/9 as additions to the fleet for use on the Exeter services, but I doubt there are seating plans available to check.

My platform 5 book suggests the seat totals are identical, but of course that doesn't rule out the positions of tables and stuff being different.

Another slim possibility is that they happened to have a 158 on that particular service, but that would be unusual and you'd probably have mentioned it anyway.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

There might be slight differences in the exact seating layout between the original 22 x 159/0s as delivered to NSE, and the 159/1s, which were converted around 2008/9 as additions to the fleet for use on the Exeter services, but I doubt there are seating plans available to check.

My platform 5 book suggests the seat totals are identical, but of course that doesn't rule out the positions of tables and stuff being different.

Another slim possibility is that they happened to have a 158 on that particular service, but that would be unusual and you'd probably have mentioned it anyway.

No it was def a 159, I looked when I got off. I did wonder if it was as you suggested, when additional units came to the fleet.

I must say that I do like those type of carriages on SWT. I prefer travelling on those slightly slower, but IMO more comfortable services than on the trains from Padd. Although they could have done with a few extra coaches on the trains I was on yesterday which were very busy, especially between Exeter & Salisbury. People seemed to be doing alot of local journeys.

 

[Parallel]

I also noticed that inspite of a turn around time at Exeter St.D., of about 30 minutes. The train had not been cleaned, the table and chairs still had the debris that the passengers from the incoming service could not be bothered to put into the litter bins or take away with them. Including a squashed used tea bag on the seat! Ugh. Perhaps littering passengers should be made to go around the train with a bin bag doing a litter pick. (We had to do that at school if we were caught littering)

Incidentally, the late evening SWT Bristol Temple Meads - Salisbury service has been the filthiest train I've ever been on. Bottles of alcohol and newspapers everywhere, food packaging stuffed down the side of the seats and over the floor, and it looked like someone had massaged crisps into the carpet, sticky tables. Granted, some very selfish passengers left the train in that way, but it was grim, and not acceptable to the passengers joining the service at Bristol or any stations on the way back down. Quite shocking really.

 

[CC 72100]

There might be slight differences in the exact seating layout between the original 22 x 159/0s as delivered to NSE, and the 159/1s, which were converted around 2008/9 as additions to the fleet for use on the Exeter services, but I doubt there are seating plans available to check.

In my experience this is what makes the difference - on the original 159/0, it is tables as soon as you get through the door, but on the 159/1, as has been said, it is airline seating.