Swt 444/450

[455driver]

So southbound the majority of passengers travel the full length of the line?

No, Southbound they will mainly be from Waterloo and most will get off at the stations (plural) after Guildford, Haslemere is a very busy station for example but no doubt some will go to Portsmouth.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Off peak the big pick up point is Guildford (in both directions), Godalming is also much more busy than you might imagine. During the peak in the up direction there are seats at Petersfield but minimal seating at Haslemere and passengers joining at Godalming, Farncombe or Guildford will be standing all the way.

 

[RobShipway]

I know that there is probably not going to be a DV version of the Hitachi IEP trains, but I ws wondering given that the coaches are longer in length than the Class 444/450, would an eight coach IEP train have more seats within it and be able to fit within the plaftform lengths on the Waterloo - Portsmouth route?

 

[AndyLandy]

I know that there is probably not going to be a DV version of the Hitachi IEP trains, but I ws wondering given that the coaches are longer in length than the Class 444/450, would an eight coach IEP train have more seats within it and be able to fit within the plaftform lengths on the Waterloo - Portsmouth route?

A nine-car IEP set is 9x26m long, so 234m. A twelve-car 450 is 12x20m long, so 240m. So yes, it'd fit.

The 2+2 seating layout of an IEP isn't nearly going to be enough compared with a 12-450.

There's pretty much no point going down this route. A 9-car IEP is going to be roughly similar capacity-wise to a 10-car 444. If a 10-444 can't provide the capacity, a 9-IEP won't either.

 

[RobShipway]

A nine-car IEP set is 9x26m long, so 234m. A twelve-car 450 is 12x20m long, so 240m. So yes, it'd fit.

The 2+2 seating layout of an IEP isn't nearly going to be enough compared with a 12-450.

There's pretty much no point going down this route. A 9-car IEP is going to be roughly similar capacity-wise to a 10-car 444. If a 10-444 can't provide the capacity, a 9-IEP won't either.

What about if you had 2+3 seating in the IEP as you do with the 450's?

 

[swt_passenger]

A nine-car IEP set is 9x26m long, so 234m. A twelve-car 450 is 12x20m long, so 240m. So yes, it'd fit.

The 2+2 seating layout of an IEP isn't nearly going to be enough compared with a 12-450.

There's pretty much no point going down this route. A 9-car IEP is going to be roughly similar capacity-wise to a 10-car 444. If a 10-444 can't provide the capacity, a 9-IEP won't either.

They could always build a 9 car IEP with 2+3 seating specifically to deal with the capacity requirements of the Portsmouth route. Then to deal with dwell times, they'd probably need 1/3 2/3 doors. To avoid confusion with proper IEPs they could paint it in a blue livery.

Going round in circles aren't we. Robbies and some others still think the only problem is a lack of 444s, no matter how many times it's explained that it's all about the absolute number of seats required by the DfT...

Meanwhile back in the real world, even 444s at 23m have a class specific speed restriction due to limited clearances in Buriton tunnel.

 

[Eagle]

They could always build a 9 car IEP with 2+3 seating specifically to deal with the capacity requirements of the Portsmouth route. Then to deal with dwell times, they'd probably need 1/3 2/3 doors. To avoid confusion with proper IEPs they could paint it in a blue livery.

You might need to change the name too, as "intercity" and "express" would be a bit misleading for such a unit

 

[RobShipway]

They could always build a 9 car IEP with 2+3 seating specifically to deal with the capacity requirements of the Portsmouth route. Then to deal with dwell times, they'd probably need 1/3 2/3 doors. To avoid confusion with proper IEPs they could paint it in a blue livery.

Going round in circles aren't we. Robbies and some others still think the only problem is a lack of 444s, no matter how many times it's explained that it's all about the absolute number of seats required by the DfT...

Meanwhile back in the real world, even 444s at 23m have a class specific speed restriction due to limited clearances in Buriton tunnel.

I have to correct you there, I think the problem is that there is not long enough trains with enough seats within them whethere it is 3 Class 444's together, 3 class 450's together on the route.

The problem as you say is the number of paths, but it is also the lengths of the platforms on teh route as well to be able to have it such that you would not need to be using SDO.

It is others that have complained that they do not have 2+2 seating as are in the class 444's and would prefer those to class 450's, I am personally just thankful of having a train getting me from A to B even if I have to stand for over an hours which I have done frequently on the class 458's on the Waterloo - Reading route when I have gone into London during rush hour times.

 

[AndyLandy]

Going round in circles aren't we. Robbies and some others still think the only problem is a lack of 444s, no matter how many times it's explained that it's all about the absolute number of seats required by the DfT...

In summary:

We need enough capacity to move a bunch of people between Portsmouth and London. We're constrained by ~240m platform lengths and available paths for trains.

So, you use the available capacity to the best of your ability. Which means 2+3 seating, and commuter doors to reduce dwell times.

Given the requirements, the 450s are basically the best trains for the job. And given the journey is only about 90 minutes, 3+2 seating isn't the end of the world.

 

[swt_passenger]

It is others that have complained that they do not have 2+2 seating as are in the class 444's and would prefer those to class 450's, I am personally just thankful of having a train getting me from A to B even if I have to stand for over an hours which I have done frequently on the class 458's on the Waterloo - Reading route when I have gone into London during rush hour times.

You must be standing on your head when writing this stuff.

When I go back through the thread your posts are all written as though serious proposals, there's no obvious evidence you are playing devil's advocate....

 

[joeykins82]

240m is the effective maximum length of trains on the Waterloo route; if memory serves from reading the RUS anything longer would reduce capacity because they would occupy multiple signal blocks on the busiest sections of the track (as well as requiring massive investment to further lengthen all of the platforms etc). That's why you can't have a 12 car 444; they'd be 276m long.

 

[RobShipway]

You must be standing on your head when writing this stuff.

When I go back through the thread your posts are all written as though serious proposals, there's no obvious evidence you are playing devil's advocate....

No just not being a stick in the mud like some....

 

[455driver]

What about if you had 2+3 seating in the IEP as you do with the 450's?

2+3 seating wont fit as the bodyshells are not wide enough, the only trains longer than 20 metres with 2+3 are FGWs 165/166 units as they were built to take advantage of the wider (ex broad gauge) route, this is also the reason the 165/166s are a little difficult to cascade.

As you make a bodyshell longer you have to reduce the width to keep it within the dynamic envelope/ loading gauge.

 

[RobShipway]

2+3 seating wont fit as the bodyshells are not wide enough, the only trains longer than 20 metres with 2+3 are FGWs 165/166 units as they were built to take advantage of the wider (ex broad gauge) route, this is also the reason the 165/166s are a little difficult to cascade.

As you make a bodyshell longer you have to reduce the width to keep it within the dynamic envelope/ loading gauge.

Okay, thanks 455driver.

 

[Matt Taylor]

If anyone wants to do a Southampton/Portsmouth service on a 444 today is the day, the Eastleigh trains are diverted to Southampton and I've got three of them.

 

[swt_passenger]

If anyone wants to do a Southampton/Portsmouth service on a 444 today is the day, the Eastleigh trains are diverted to Southampton and I've got three of them.

Your earlier posts must have been spotted and you've been specially selected for the 'adventure'...