SWR Major Disruption 19/11

[Wolfie]

Not at all sure that it's cost cutting at fault, more a lack of proper systems in place.

If so that is damning of the so-called management

 

[Wolfie]

Thanks for the video link - a reminder about how "wonderful " life was on BR of old

It couldn't be worse than the current (complete absence of reliable) service...

 

[Wychwood93]

One consideration for not running trains to say Guildford is how do you stop all the people for Waterloo etc. joining the trains? Guildford would end up with 100s of passengers milling around wondering how to travel further on. Correct and timely information might deter some but I suspect mainly will travel in hope! Maybe this was part of the reason for not running any trains at the start. However I would still have liked to see some local trains running. Surely there must be a contingency plan for lines blocked in this location or was cancelling everything the plan? It was a shame that SWR did not more fully explain why they cancelled all trains then at least passengers might understand. Communication is still not the railway's strong point.

I have still not seen why there was a delay to finishing the works. The news tonight said something about defective track causing a problem. I am sure the person in charge had a very bad and stressful night. That said the railway seems to be falling apart in many places at the moment.

Many years ago the idea of 'contingency' cropped up - the main drawback being 'where do we start'. After all the subsequent years the answer is still somewhat elusive. Earlier this morning certain BML1 services ran via Staines - the obvious when the main lines were blocked - subsequent to that there are fewer incoming units and crews, given that the latter could, perhaps, be due a PNB due to late running. It goes on from there - a shortage of spare crews, do they still exist? - just waiting to pick up a turn. To skip back a little - very, very hard to draw up a contingency plan for every eventuality - which is not to say that a plan, of some sort, should not by now have been formulated for the most obvious of situations. If only you could know what would happen where!

 

[Islineclear3_1]

My daughter is on 2C63 which, according to RTT left Waterloo 36L so hopefully, she'll be in Reading by 10pm

 

[bnm]

Are you able to tell us EXACTLY why this overrun happened?
If not how can it be indefensible?

Go on then ol' powerful one, enlighten us the the specific cause of this over run.

Not one cause. A series of preventable errors.

Overnight replacement of defective rail. A normally routine possession.

Rail Replacement Vehicle runs through points in wrong direction, adding to workload.

Team stood down for around 3 hours to investigate and hold safety briefing.

Tamping after rail replacement is delayed because tamping crew are unhappy with measurements.

Meanwhile, because of the Network Rail fupp ups, SWR's depot drivers have gone off shift, so there are problems getting stock into service. Main line drivers do not have the route knowledge to get stock off depot.

Result: Meltdown.

And now I will be shot down by the wagon circlers for either not being 100% accurate with the above assessment, or for divulging embarrassing information. Or they'll just say I'm wrong, but not provide an alternative narrative.

 

[Antman]

Ouch, it sounds like proper Keystone Cops. Is there one person in overall control of matters on the ground or is it all just various contractors doing their contracted bit and no one responsible for the bigger picture ?

I have to say, the tamping crew refusing to accept to do the work took guts. They will have known the impact of their decision. But it looks like they stood their ground (a bit like planes.... if one person says no, it's a no).

 

[Parham Wood]

Not one cause. A series of preventable errors.

Overnight replacement of defective rail. A normally routine possession.

Rail Replacement Vehicle runs through points in wrong direction, adding to workload.

Team stood down for around 3 hours to investigate and hold safety briefing.

Tamping after rail replacement is delayed because tamping crew are unhappy with measurements.

Meanwhile, because of the Network Rail fupp ups, SWR's depot drivers have gone off shift, so there are problems getting stock into service. Main line drivers do not have the route knowledge to get stock off depot.

Result: Meltdown.

And now I will be shot down by the wagon circlers for either not being 100% accurate with the above assessment, or for divulging embarrassing information. Or they'll just say I'm wrong, but not provide an alternative narrative.

Speechless! Lots of lessons to be learned here I think if facts are correct. I am very surprised that mainline drivers do not have depot route knowledge. I can see keeping it current once learned could be a problem if they never need to go to the depot but to have no drivers around with depot knowledge during the day seems a risk (someone will probably correct and say there are a couple...). No criticism of tamping crew however.

 

[Llanigraham]

Not one cause. A series of preventable errors.

Overnight replacement of defective rail. A normally routine possession.

Rail Replacement Vehicle runs through points in wrong direction, adding to workload.

Team stood down for around 3 hours to investigate and hold safety briefing.

Tamping after rail replacement is delayed because tamping crew are unhappy with measurements.

Meanwhile, because of the Network Rail fupp ups, SWR's depot drivers have gone off shift, so there are problems getting stock into service. Main line drivers do not have the route knowledge to get stock off depot.

Result: Meltdown.

And now I will be shot down by the wagon circlers for either not being 100% accurate with the above assessment, or for divulging embarrassing information. Or they'll just say I'm wrong, but not provide an alternative narrative.

And you have confirmation that that was the reason, or are you guessing (again)?

Now if, repeat if, those points are correct lets work through them:
Defective rail, happens and is no-ones fault, so you can't balme NR.
Run-through, an accident and finnily enough they happen, and not just on the railway. You can't tell me you've never made one!
Stand-down, correctly done as the run-through would have to be investigated and then the points need to be inspected, repaired if neccesary, and then passed safe.
Tamping, they were doing their job and if it wasn't to specification then it wouldn't be passed.
SWR drivers going off shift isn't NR's problem, as isn't the route knowledge of main line drivers.

Funny but even as an ex-signaller I see no fupps, just a realisation that the world isn't a perfect place and mistakes happen, and sometimes a third party are inconvenienced by that. Unfortunaltely there seem to be a vociferous few on here who cannot recognise that, go over the top, throw insults willy-nilly and even go as far as threatening Police or legal action. I note that the latter it is never stated under what legislation they would do that.

 

[pompeyfan]

I think in regards to the depot issues, it wasn’t just Mainline drivers not signing the depot roads (Farnham) but that the shunters at some places only work nights (Guildford).

50p says that there will be cancellations and short forms tomorrow due to stock displacement.

 

[theironroad]

Not one cause. A series of preventable errors.

Overnight replacement of defective rail. A normally routine possession.

Rail Replacement Vehicle runs through points in wrong direction, adding to workload.

Team stood down for around 3 hours to investigate and hold safety briefing.

Tamping after rail replacement is delayed because tamping crew are unhappy with measurements.

Meanwhile, because of the Network Rail fupp ups, SWR's depot drivers have gone off shift, so there are problems getting stock into service. Main line drivers do not have the route knowledge to get stock off depot.

Result: Meltdown.

And now I will be shot down by the wagon circlers for either not being 100% accurate with the above assessment, or for divulging embarrassing information. Or they'll just say I'm wrong, but not provide an alternative narrative.

It is mainline drivers who bring stock off a depot, as depot drivers don't sign outside of depot limits and aren't licensed to drive on mainline.

 

[theironroad]

I think in regards to the depot issues, it wasn’t just Mainline drivers not signing the depot roads (Farnham) but that the shunters at some places only work nights (Guildford).

50p says that there will be cancellations and short forms tomorrow due to stock displacement.

Since when do mainline drivers not sign Farnham depot?

 

[pompeyfan]

Since when do mainline drivers not sign Farnham depot?

Was under the impression theres some sort of local instruction to do with bringing trains off the depot with Mainline drivers.

Do any drivers other than Farnham drivers sign the depot? Don’t they have a small compliment there which means once they’re used they’re used.

You can tell I’m clutching at straws but I genuinely thought I’d heard the above mentioned.

 

[bnm]

It is mainline drivers who bring stock off a depot, as depot drivers don't sign outside of depot limits and aren't licensed to drive on mainline.

As I said, I expected to be pulled up for not being 100% accurate.

I got my drivers and shunters mixed up. Without the shunters, (who'd gone off shift) to control depot movements, getting stock into service was problematical.

 

[theironroad]

As I said, I expected to be pulled up for not being 100% accurate.

I got my drivers and shunters mixed up. Without the shunters, (who'd gone off shift) to control depot movements, getting stock into service was problematical.

Yes, agreed that without shunters controlling movements , then not much is going to happen.

 

[theironroad]

Was under the impression theres some sort of local instruction to do with bringing trains off the depot with Mainline drivers.

Do any drivers other than Farnham drivers sign the depot? Don’t they have a small compliment there which means once they’re used they’re used.

You can tell I’m clutching at straws but I genuinely thought I’d heard the above mentioned.

I don't sign Farnham depot, so not too sure myself if there is a local instruction, but seems odd. Its not a massive depot.

Think we'll have to split the difference on the uncertainty on this one

Edit:

Just had a quick skim through the depot route map and instructions. Seems to be a mixed bag. Mainline drivers will move trains out of the depot from the cleaning shedand from the cet road, but not from the berthing roads at the Alton end of the depot. A depot driver will move trains from the berthing area into either the cleaning shed or CET road where crew changeover from depot to mainline drivers will occur. Seems there is also an 'alton end' shunter for the berthing area and a shunter repsonsible for movements from the depot as a whole in conjunction with the signaller.

 

[Tio Terry]

Not one cause. A series of preventable errors.

Overnight replacement of defective rail. A normally routine possession.

Rail Replacement Vehicle runs through points in wrong direction, adding to workload.

Team stood down for around 3 hours to investigate and hold safety briefing.

Tamping after rail replacement is delayed because tamping crew are unhappy with measurements.

Meanwhile, because of the Network Rail fupp ups, SWR's depot drivers have gone off shift, so there are problems getting stock into service. Main line drivers do not have the route knowledge to get stock off depot.

Result: Meltdown.

And now I will be shot down by the wagon circlers for either not being 100% accurate with the above assessment, or for divulging embarrassing information. Or they'll just say I'm wrong, but not provide an alternative narrative.

That aligns with what I have managed to find out.

 

[infobleep]

Passed through Waterloo en route to Woking approx 19.45. I was lucky! boarded a packed basinstoke which was then canceled. Back to concourse- most trains apart from a few locals cancelled. Next woking shown at 21.00. Lots head for the pub to wait. Then an Alton is called and departs in less than 5 mins - mostly empty. So I got away in 20 mins so in circumstances ok. Was clear though station staff had no idea, no one seemed to be in charge and information screens bore no relation to reality. I know it’s a complex system and hard to recover when it goes wrong but seems to me SWT just can’t manage the basics - tell people what’s actually happening, which trains are running and how they get home!

At Guildford earlier the small flat summery screens were saying only trains known to be running were being displayed.

However the orange departure board for platform 2 was showing a train that was unlikely to be running. In fact it's still showing as delayed.

Incidentally due to the signalling issue affecting Wokingham, there is a rail replacement bus service in operation between Bracknell and Reading. This isn't a planned rail replacement bus service and it's 23:30 now so not exactly early.

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

It’s very weird that I’m hearing complaints about staff not having information; it was all on Tyrell the last time I checked, including some very specific details about possible diversions of WoE (Exeter, Salisbury etc) trains into Reading...

On the topic of diversions, 1L18 did run Basingstoke to Waterloo via Chertsey, one of the very few that managed to before the lines reopened, as the driver signed the route and felt up to the challenge it seems!

 

[Antman]

Touch wood. Seems to be running OK today. So a lot of behinds the scenes got sorted. She's on the train to the seaside....

 

[pompeyfan]

I don't sign Farnham depot, so not too sure myself if there is a local instruction, but seems odd. Its not a massive depot.

Think we'll have to split the difference on the uncertainty on this one

Edit:

Just had a quick skim through the depot route map and instructions. Seems to be a mixed bag. Mainline drivers will move trains out of the depot from the cleaning shedand from the cet road, but not from the berthing roads at the Alton end of the depot. A depot driver will move trains from the berthing area into either the cleaning shed or CET road where crew changeover from depot to mainline drivers will occur. Seems there is also an 'alton end' shunter for the berthing area and a shunter repsonsible for movements from the depot as a whole in conjunction with the signaller.

Ah thanks for looking into that, would appear there is some weight behind what I thought I’d heard and that I’m not losing my marbles. Either way it certainly hampered recovery.

It’s very weird that I’m hearing complaints about staff not having information; it was all on Tyrell the last time I checked, including some very specific details about possible diversions of WoE (Exeter, Salisbury etc) trains into Reading...

On the topic of diversions, 1L18 did run Basingstoke to Waterloo via Chertsey, one of the very few that managed to before the lines reopened, as the driver signed the route and felt up to the challenge it seems!

Front line SWR staff don’t have access normally to Tyrell, instead the SWT Tyrell entries are emailed to work phones. There’s usually far more detail on the NR Wessex Tyrell feed, but most staff can’t see it.

Bit of luck then that it was either a Basingstoke driver or Waterloo driver up the front, isn’t there quite a few severe speed restrictions for 159s Via Chertsey?

Glad this morning (other than Wokingham) is behaving itself so far.

 

[TEW]

I think in regards to the depot issues, it wasn’t just Mainline drivers not signing the depot roads (Farnham) but that the shunters at some places only work nights (Guildford).

50p says that there will be cancellations and short forms tomorrow due to stock displacement.

Guildford should have a shunter 24/7, but yesterday the early turn was uncovered, pretty bad luck there. It didn't matter in practice anyway as by the time they were ready to take trains out the sidings there was a driver manager available to work as a shunter.

Was under the impression theres some sort of local instruction to do with bringing trains off the depot with Mainline drivers.

Do any drivers other than Farnham drivers sign the depot? Don’t they have a small compliment there which means once they’re used they’re used.

You can tell I’m clutching at straws but I genuinely thought I’d heard the above mentioned.

Guildford, Woking and I believe Wimbledon Park all sign Farnham Depot.

 

[infobleep]

There have been some cancellations today due to ltae trains from the depot. Is that related to yesterday? No short formations listed as I type though. That is good.

 

[infobleep]

I don't sign Farnham depot, so not too sure myself if there is a local instruction, but seems odd. Its not a massive depot.

Think we'll have to split the difference on the uncertainty on this one

Edit:

Just had a quick skim through the depot route map and instructions. Seems to be a mixed bag. Mainline drivers will move trains out of the depot from the cleaning shedand from the cet road, but not from the berthing roads at the Alton end of the depot. A depot driver will move trains from the berthing area into either the cleaning shed or CET road where crew changeover from depot to mainline drivers will occur. Seems there is also an 'alton end' shunter for the berthing area and a shunter repsonsible for movements from the depot as a whole in conjunction with the signaller.

Would it be worth drivers learning the whole of the Farnham depot or would they struggle to retain the knowledge? I'd have thought South Western Railway would want to do anything it reasonably could to allow trains to get up and running during disruption as soon as possible.

After all that is part of the reason why they wish to switch to running trains without a guard during disruption. I'm not discussing that point here, as it's discussed elsewhere, just highlighting a change that they wish to bring to help with disruption.

 

[pompeyfan]

There have been some cancellations today due to ltae trains from the depot. Is that related to yesterday? No short formations listed as I type though. That is good.

4 cancellations this morning. More than likely due to the disruption yesterday and the limitation of the system. Possibly trying to pacify the customers as well as ‘over running engineering works’ (root cause) would cause many eyes to roll.

 

[pompeyfan]

Would it be worth drivers learning the whole of the Farnham depot or would they struggle to retain the knowledge? I'd have thought South Western Railway would want to do anything it reasonably could to allow trains to get up and running during disruption as soon as possible.

After all that is part of the reason why they wish to switch to running trains without a guard during disruption. I'm not discussing that point here, as it's discussed elsewhere, just highlighting a change that they wish to bring to help with disruption.

Pure speculation, I would assume a bean counter has done the maths and it’s cheaper to take the hit for delay minutes (especially if NR are paying it) then it is to ensure all traincrew know (and importantly maintain) all diversionary routes etc.

 

[Carntyne]

Front line SWR staff don’t have access normally to Tyrell, instead the SWT Tyrell entries are emailed to work phones. There’s usually far more detail on the NR Wessex Tyrell feed, but most staff can’t see it.

That is horrendously short-sighted if true. It is what Tyrell is for. Easy fixed too.

 

[kev1974]

There have been some cancellations today due to ltae trains from the depot. Is that related to yesterday? No short formations listed as I type though. That is good.

mmm, the 0613 Wimbledon to Waterloo via Kingston and Richmond was definitely a single 5-car unit today when it should have been a double unit.

(this train: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W13445/2018/11/20/advanced)

 

[infobleep]

Ah thanks for looking into that, would appear there is some weight behind what I thought I’d heard and that I’m not losing my marbles. Either way it certainly hampered recovery.




Front line SWR staff don’t have access normally to Tyrell, instead the SWT Tyrell entries are emailed to work phones. There’s usually far more detail on the NR Wessex Tyrell feed, but most staff can’t see it.

Bit of luck then that it was either a Basingstoke driver or Waterloo driver up the front, isn’t there quite a few severe speed restrictions for 159s Via Chertsey?

Glad this morning (other than Wokingham) is behaving itself so far.

Is it a technical reason that stops front line staff accessing Tyrrell or just compnay policy? I know some software requires people to be inside a company network to run and a smartphone probably wouldn't have access. Then there is software doesn't run on smartphones or if it's a web page may not be mobile friendly or even tablet friendly.

 

[Twotwo]

Is it a technical reason that stops front line staff accessing Tyrrell or just compnay policy? I know some software requires people to be inside a company network to run and a smartphone probably wouldn't have access. Then there is software doesn't run on smartphones or if it's a web page may not be mobile friendly or even tablet friendly.

I used to work for swr and the tyrell page needs a log in and password so I assume most don't know it but it is a very handy tool to use. But to be fair it does share the same information you can find on journey updates on the swr website (such as cancellations, alterations and status update however on tyrell there's just sometimes a bit more internal information that they don't put on swr website). I've uploaded a picture of the tyrell website for anyone who wanted to see.

 

[pompeyfan]

Clicking Network Rail and then filter provides lots of internal details. During severe issues it’s very useful for more up to date and finer details, so that you can have a better understanding of when you’ll be on the move again.