SWR Class 458 to be retained

[davews]

458413 and 458414 disgraced themselves by failing at Clapham Junction on 2C37 (1320 to Reading) this afternoon. They're still sat there nearly three hours later blocking Platform 5.

Is that the same pair which failed at Reading a couple of weeks ago with similar delay in sorting? The 458's seem to be getting a failure nightmare.

 

[Boalbads]

Anyone know what happened to 458535? Is it undergoing an exam like 533 was? Noticed that 529 is running single still, and that 530/533 are back together.

 

[WarrenTManager]

Anyone know what happened to 458535? Is it undergoing an exam like 533 was? Noticed that 529 is running single still, and that 530/533 are back together.

535 is Status ok.

The current 458/5 diagrams call for 1 x 10.458 and 1 x 5.458 so it’s spare.

 

[Boalbads]

535 is Status ok.

The current 458/5 diagrams call for 1 x 10.458 and 1 x 5.458 so it’s spare.

Interesting, not sure who would timetable a single 458/5, gets rammed very easily, good to know it's not the last of it then, presumably it will run in place of 529 once it's out of miles?

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

535 is Status ok.

The current 458/5 diagrams call for 1 x 10.458 and 1 x 5.458 so it’s spare.

If it's spare why are they running a single 5 on the reading service. These tend to be busy all day

 

[43096]

If it's spare why are they running a single 5 on the reading service. These tend to be busy all day

Because they have four sets and you don't diagram 100% availability. The "spare" set also covers maintenance.

 

[TrainLifeGB]

535 is Status ok.

The current 458/5 diagrams call for 1 x 10.458 and 1 x 5.458 so it’s spare.

I'm surprised 458529 is still running. Wasn't it said it only had a few miles left?

 

[WarrenTManager]

If it's spare why are they running a single 5 on the reading service. These tend to be busy all day

It’s booked as 5. I don’t do planning. I would imagine it’s an upgrade on what was a 4.

I would say though then you are asking for 4/4 every day.

 

[boiledbeans2]

I would say though then you are asking for 4/4 every day.

When SWR had only 2x 707 sets remaining, I believe the diagram was 2/2.

 

[Bigfoot]

When SWR had only 2x 707 sets remaining, I believe the diagram was 2/2.

Monday to Friday, and they were much younger and more reliable.

 

[TrainLifeGB]

Could this be the end for 458529 as it's now stored for today? It was said to only have a few miles left. Could be just resting for the day, but still.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

It’s booked as 5. I don’t do planning. I would imagine it’s an upgrade on what was a 4.

I would say though then you are asking for 4/4 every day.

Yes these services deserve at least an 8 car service. Soon to be 10 again I hope

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Interesting, not sure who would timetable a single 458/5

It’s booked as 5. I don’t do planning. I would imagine it’s an upgrade on what was a 4.

I would say though then you are asking for 4/4 every day.

Monday to Friday, and they were much younger and more reliable.

First point, the planner responsible is known to me and is a very competent person. I will assume your comment is more of a 'generic' nature, which I do understand, so I don't take offence.

Second point (WTM); as said by WTM, with old traction, if you plan to run 4 from 4 even every SX day, you are planning to fail. By the end of week one, you would likely have one unit stopped for longer than planned, possibly two units. So to have one as a maintenance spare makes perfect sense, as even if only having minor issues dealt with (eg: one set of defective doors - which can be locked out) said unit can be injected in to service to replace an on the day failure.

Third point (Bigfoot): spot on. Will only add the time span concerned being relatively short, so all things combined a risk worth taking, rather than cancelling a train.

 

[Olivine]

First point, the planner responsible is known to me and is a very competent person. I will assume your comment is more of a 'generic' nature, which I do understand, so I don't take offence.

Not entirely sure what you mean by this - feel free to expand?

The comment is entirely correct that running a 4 car in the peak isn’t suitable for that line especially past Staines.

 

[Goldfish62]

It’s booked as 5. I don’t do planning. I would imagine it’s an upgrade on what was a 4.

I would say though then you are asking for 4/4 every day.

It was 8 coaches before the May timetable. It's never been 4 coaches prior to then. I can only assume passenger numbers have decreased on the Reading line this year, which wouldn't surprise me to be honest, given how unreliable the service is.

 

[bb21]

Not entirely sure what you mean by this - feel free to expand?

The comment is entirely correct that running a 4 car in the peak isn’t suitable for that line especially past Staines.

Assuming the peak service you referred to was 2C20, that is usually the best of the alternatives. If something must be a shorter formation due to capacity constraints, the last peak service is usually the comparatively lighter loaded. Most of the commuters would have already travelled, and as the next service would be the first one off-peak tickets would be valid (from places like Staines and Ascot) there would typically be more demand.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Not entirely sure what you mean by this - feel free to expand?

The comment is entirely correct that running a 4 car in the peak isn’t suitable for that line especially past Staines.

I will. My history was four decades in planning prior to SWR days, and I still know many of those involved. I may be over a decade out of the industry, but I know that as individuals those still doing the job would not deliberately diagram trains in a negative way. They will be working under very trying and challenging* (*week by week changes) circumstances at present with all that is going on in relation to 701 introduction and 455/458 displacement, and will be diagramming ALL stock that is available to them#. This is outside of their normal planning routines related to engineering work and other special events, none of which ceases just because a new train type is being introduced.

# By available stock I mean all available 'traffic' stock, that which is usable by the planners to run the daily train service. As I have explained elsewhere previously, this usually amounts to about 95% of the total fleet (of any one type), the remaining 5% being for routine maintenance (MOT exams if you will), fault rectification and other technical modifications that may be required.

I agree, a 4 car in the peaks (core peaks in particular) is undesirable, but sometimes this is because there is nothing left that is serviceable at the time required. So a choice is made - run with what is available, or cancel the train. That is the hard fact.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Sep 2025 ==

Assuming the peak service you referred to was 2C20, that is usually the best of the alternatives.

I see from the latest CWN 2C20 is booked for a 5 car 458, so from my past experience the timing of same would explain that choice as the least worst option, in the current circumstances. So if a 5 car is unavailable on any given day, I suspect the view is taken (to which I would agree) that a 4 car is better than a cancellation. The nearer London one is, the more options exist, as unpalatable as some of these may be to some?

 

[Boalbads]

First point, the planner responsible is known to me and is a very competent person. I will assume your comment is more of a 'generic' nature, which I do understand, so I don't take offence.

My apologies, I did not mean offence, I presume there is an operational reason, however, a five car does not cope with capacity at all, it was full and standing by Vauxhall when I was on it. It is definitely an upgrade over a 4 car however...

 

[Big Jumby 74]

My apologies, I did not mean offence,

No worries at all my friend, no offence taken.

New stock cascades are a minefield to understand, and that applies to many on the job (outside of the planning team) as well. During the SWT 10 car plan I had to reduce the odd service from 12 (450) to 10 car (458) for a matter of months, as a result of platform capacity/availability at Waterloo. The other option I had was to cancel a train from the perm morning peak timetable (0641 Woking to Waterloo), so instead I altered the stock formation, that only lasted (as planned) for less than a year, when other alterations (formations and platform usage at Waterloo) allowed for the wider 10 car plan to bed in, and the 0641 ex Woking reverted to 12 car 450, as it had been planned to do so in the first place back in the original overall roll out plan of 2007 etc.

Those who are quick to complain (on here) should understand that stock/diagram content will very likely be fluid throughout the 701 introduction, and changes to formations will be varied until all 701's are in service and all 455/458 are displayed displaced.
Once all 455/458 are gone from the suburban area, a more realistic thread can then discuss the pro's and con's of same perhaps.?

 

[TEW]

458529 is working Chessington/ Guildford via Epsom all day today as a 5-car.

 

[Snow1964]

My apologies, I did not mean offence, I presume there is an operational reason, however, a five car does not cope with capacity at all, it was full and standing by Vauxhall when I was on it. It is definitely an upgrade over a 4 car however...

As they are now down to just four remaining 458/5, I guess there has to be a reason for running a double set, single set and a spare instead of choosing a double set, a 701and having 2 spares.

I don't want to offend anyone either, but perhaps a little more clarity and explanation on the reasoning for needing to schedule a 5car train, when normal length is 8 or 10car (rather than wanted to keep just one spare, rather than have 2 spares) would have provided a fuller answer to the question.

Clearly it a temporary solution, whilst the 458/5 fleet is wound down, and obviously they are continuing because their remaining mileage to next overhaul exceeds some of the 455s, some of which are being stopped as run out of miles unless overhauled.

 

[Siemens Staines]

In the May LTP diagrams, this diagram (0620 Waterloo- Reading etc) was going to be 8-car 458, but in practice was always STP altered to be 5-car 458. The planned 8-car 458 went over to work the 0633 Waterloo - Windsor diagram which had been LTP planned to be 701, as it had been in last winters diagrams. The July LTP diagrams saw these STP changes become the LTP diagrams. Ironically, the only period when this peak hours train in to Reading was an 8-car 458 was during the August timetable reduction, but I suspect that was because the following even busier peak hours service in to Reading (0650 Waterloo - Reading) did not run at all.

 

[Stephen42]

As they are now down to just four remaining 458/5, I guess there has to be a reason for running a double set, single set and a spare instead of choosing a double set, a 701and having 2 spares.

There are various constraints on running more 701s and it won't be as simple as running an extra 701. The choice would be a double set and an extra pair of 455s somewhere which could impact their withdrawal.

I don't want to offend anyone either, but perhaps a little more clarity and explanation on the reasoning for needing to schedule a 5car train, when normal length is 8 or 10car (rather than wanted to keep just one spare, rather than have 2 spares) would have provided a fuller answer to the question.

Clearly it a temporary solution, whilst the 458/5 fleet is wound down, and obviously they are continuing because their remaining mileage to next overhaul exceeds some of the 455s, some of which are being stopped as run out of miles unless overhauled.

Looking at the shorter diagrams, there are two scheduled in the metro area for 5 cars or less. One is the 5-car 458/5 and the other is a single 4-car 455. Both go to Weybridge and cannot run as 8-car 455s due to lack of SDO and short platform. All the 12 pairs of 458/4s make use of their SDO somewhere and assuming 701 deployment is maximised that leaves the 450s. The 450s have different stock rotation to the 455s which complicates swapping a pair of 450s out with 455s. It's also probably not a coincidence that every route is diagrammed to have some non-701 and non-455 stock as that would allow some non-701 trained crew to be around at the point the 455s are fully retired.

The 10-car 458/5s on the Shepperton would be easiest to replace with 8-car 455s. That diagram was likely switched from 8-car 455s for a reason though and may have more adverse impact than 4/5 cars on some of shoulder peak services.

 

[Goldfish62]

In the May LTP diagrams, this diagram (0620 Waterloo- Reading etc) was going to be 8-car 458, but in practice was always STP altered to be 5-car 458. The planned 8-car 458 went over to work the 0633 Waterloo - Windsor diagram which had been LTP planned to be 701, as it had been in last winters diagrams. The July LTP diagrams saw these STP changes become the LTP diagrams. Ironically, the only period when this peak hours train in to Reading was an 8-car 458 was during the August timetable reduction, but I suspect that was because the following even busier peak hours service in to Reading (0650 Waterloo - Reading) did not run at all.

I agree. Plus, with the first Up off-peak service from Reading (0839) being withdrawn during the Summer (sneaky one, SWR...) that would have forced those who needed to be in London by a certain time on to the 0809 from Reading. I very much doubt a 5-car train would have coped at all as a result.

 

[Boalbads]

Some of the windows on 529 do appear to be either rotting or moulding, not particularly sure how to describe it...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Sep 2025 ==

According to https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/swr-metro-fleet-withdrawals.224866/page-98#post-7470885 458529 is now withdrawn, which lowers the total to 3...

 

[craigybagel]

Apologies for the slight deviation on this thread but SWR have launched their apprenticeship openings for 2026.

Including Train Planning and Fleet Planning. Plus lots of other disciplines. Some are 18+ for Graduate Apprenticeships.

Please note you will need to be aged 16–18 on 1 September 2026 to be considered for this opportunity.
Closes 31/10/2025.

Have a spy

Pretty daft to restrict certain apprenticeships to 16-18 ages only when a greater pool of people who seek a career in the rail industry (myself included) would be willing to go via any entry paths for these pretty lucrative roles like Rail Technicians or Train Planning. But hey ho, much like in any industry that’s recruitment for you.

No, it’s the government changing the rules about how Apprenticeship funding can be used. It’s supposed to safeguard the funding for school leavers but just restricts opportunities for others.

Restricting to 16-18 means you can pay them less, a lot less...!

What has any of this got to do with 458s?

 

[Invincible]

On the private SWR Enthusiasts Facebook group it was claimed the other day that as soon as the 455s are all displaced the 458s will be next (rather than the 450s), so that's well before all the 701s are introduced.

The current 4581/4 lease +and Alstom support contract) expires 2027

Refurbishment for SWR's Class 458 trains thanks to new contract between Porterbrook and Alstom

Porterbrook has announced that South Western Railway's (SWR) fleet of Modern Railway’s ‘Golden Spanner awards’ winning Class 458 will undergo major improvements following a new deal with Alstom.

www.railadvent.co.uk

Presumably if the 458/4s were to be used on the PDL as 12 car units as planned (replacing some 459s) the lease would have been renewed?
But if they are never to be used on the PDL (if the cost of modifying track and signalling is high) then will be returned to Porterbrook?

 

[TrainLifeGB]

The current 4581/4 lease +and Alstom support contract) expires 2027

Refurbishment for SWR's Class 458 trains thanks to new contract between Porterbrook and Alstom

Porterbrook has announced that South Western Railway's (SWR) fleet of Modern Railway’s ‘Golden Spanner awards’ winning Class 458 will undergo major improvements following a new deal with Alstom.

www.railadvent.co.uk

Presumably if the 458/4s were to be used on the PDL as 12 car units as planned (replacing some 459s) the lease would have been renewed?
But if they are never to be used on the PDL (if the cost of modifying track and signalling is high) then will be returned to Porterbrook?

The plan is to withdraw them once the 701s have taken over as of now. Supposedly. It'd be easier to continue using 12 car 450s.

 

[DelW]

The plan is to withdraw them once the 701s have taken over as of now. Supposedly. It'd be easier to continue using 12 car 450s.

Perhaps their 2+2 seats could be recovered when the 458/4s are scrapped, and used to produce a sub fleet of 2+2 seated 450s that are actually suitable for Portsmouth services.

Otherwise we're lumbered with another 20 years of cramped and uncomfortable seating on many class 1 as well as class 2 services to Portsmouth.

 

[Boalbads]

Noticed 458530 stopped today after 2C34, was covered by 455713 for the rest of the day, wonder if it broke?