SWR Class 458 to be retained

[Snow1964]

Also would anybody bear footage of the Class 458/0s in their first years of service? such as 2002/2005? I am intrigued to see the appalling build quality of the units, before they were withdrawn in 2005. Also according to Wikipedia the units leaked water in to the saloons. Would anybody recount their experiences of this when the Class first entered service.

I was commuting daily from Richmond to Waterloo from 2000 to 2003 before moving to North Kingston.

I remember them having lots of creaking when crush loaded in early years, and on one crush loaded service door failed (right next to where I was squashed in vestibule) and was stuck open at Putney, guard and platform staff all tried to close it, including locally at the door for about 10 minutes, but seemed door motor had failed and was jammed open. They made everyone get off (and it took about 12 mins to clear the platform as was only one footbridge then). Clearly if have to be turfed off, then not the best.

 

[Carlisle]

but seemed door motor had failed and was jammed open.

That must’ve been an extremely rare type of failure, 95 % of the time on all the types of train I’ve used faulty doors have been locked & labeled out of use in a few minutes

 

[43096]

It makes you realize, SWT really wasn't that bad!

Some of us said it when the franchise changed to SWR. Stagecoach understood what was important to keep the railway moving (well, moving most of the time), such as fleet reliability. They didn't win all those Golden Spanners for no reason - they knew the impact that fleet incidents have on the timetable into and out of Waterloo, particularly during the peaks. It is striking the number of "broken down train" reports there are on JourneyCheck now compared with the days of SWT.

 

[RacsoMoquette]

I was commuting daily from Richmond to Waterloo from 2000 to 2003 before moving to North Kingston.

I remember them having lots of creaking when crush loaded in early years, and on one crush loaded service door failed (right next to where I was squashed in vestibule) and was stuck open at Putney, guard and platform staff all tried to close it, including locally at the door for about 10 minutes, but seemed door motor had failed and was jammed open. They made everyone get off (and it took about 12 mins to clear the platform as was only one footbridge then). Clearly if have to be turfed off, then not the best.

Interesting! I always thought that the electrically driven door systems on Coradia Juniper classes to be quicker and more reliable than those slow pneumatic doors of the Desiro. Did any other glaring gremlins of the (then new) Class 458 show theirselves during your commutes on them?

 

[Goldfish62]

Interesting! I always thought that the electrically driven door systems on Coradia Juniper classes to be quicker and more reliable than those slow pneumatic doors of the Desiro. Did any other glaring gremlins of the (then new) Class 458 show theirselves during your commutes on them?

Talking of the doors they didn't have an auto-close function until converted to 458/5. They would therefore sit at Reading station on a hot summer's day for up to 30 minutes with all doors open while trying to air-condition the whole of Reading. Even with auto-close now fitted there's no obstacle detection system so if you get in the way once the close sequence has started you simply get shut in the doors.

I went to a presentation soon after SWT ordered the trains and they admitted to making sure they were specified to be as basic as possible within the regulations, the claimed excuse being that passengers didn't want flashy stuff, but in reality more likely to be to save money.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Apparently a 458 caught on fire at waterloo earlier

This was 458426

 

[Transilien]

I went to a presentation soon after SWT ordered the trains and they admitted to making sure they were specified to be as basic as possible within the regulations, the claimed excuse being that passengers didn't want flashy stuff, but in reality more likely to be to save money.

Why were the 458s ordered then? Couldn’t SWT have waited to order more 450s for a standardised fleet?

 

[Wolfie]

Why were the 458s ordered then? Couldn’t SWT have waited to order more 450s for a standardised fleet?

Pretty sure that the 450s were ordered after the 458s proved unreliable. The original plan was many more 458s.

 

[boiledbeans2]

It's hard for an outsider to judge whether SWR or DfT is the more incompetent at forward planning. I suspect that if either of them organised a p*ss-up in a brewery, it would be entirely suitable for teetotallers to attend.

It takes a spectacular degree of incompetence to:
* offload your newest fleet to another company (707s)
* scrap two recently rebuilt fleets (442s and 456s)
* expensively rebuild a fleet to make it less suitable for your current use of it (458s)
* spend five years abjectly failing to introduce the replacements you ordered, partly because you made such a mess of the spec'

and then to whine that you can't do anything to improve the rubbish timetable and endemic overcrowding, because your company is short of rolling stock.

Please add the Island Line to the list.

Pre-upgrade: 2tph. Post-"upgrade": 1tph

 

[Doomotron]

How much money must SWR have wasted on these projects just to scrap them, first the 442s, now the 458s...

To be clear, there has been no mention of 458s actually being scrapped.

 

[Russel]

To be clear, there has been no mention of 458s actually being scrapped.

I meant the projects being scrapped, not the trains!

 

[DelW]

To be clear, there has been no mention of 458s actually being scrapped.

I meant the projects being scrapped, not the trains!

At one stage, SWR was intending not to use the 458/4s at all; post conversion, they would be stored unused for the minimum duration of the lease, then scrapped. It was only when the continuing lack of 701s led to stock shortages so severe that even SWR couldn't pretend otherwise, that they changed tack and put the /4s into use on metro services (instead of the mainline service that they'd been converted for).

It was all covered earlier in this thread.

 

[Invincible]

At one stage, SWR was intending not to use the 458/4s at all; post conversion, they would be stored unused for the minimum duration of the lease, then scrapped. It was only when the continuing lack of 701s led to stock shortages so severe that even SWR couldn't pretend otherwise, that they changed tack and put the /4s into use on metro services (instead of the mainline service that they'd been converted for).

It was all covered earlier in this thread.

But the contract for the 458 refurb for the Portsmouth line (rather than use 422s) was April 2020,

Refurbishment for SWR's Class 458 trains thanks to new contract between Porterbrook and Alstom

Porterbrook has announced that South Western Railway's (SWR) fleet of Modern Railway’s ‘Golden Spanner awards’ winning Class 458 will undergo major improvements following a new deal with Alstom.

www.railadvent.co.uk

so the reduction in passenger numbers due to COVID restrictions would have been known, so the contract could have been stopped?
Maybe they were expecting passengers to return and use the 458s on the Portsmouth line, which they didn't?
Also seem to remember the drivers objected to the 458 cabs.

 

[WarrenTManager]

Some of us said it when the franchise changed to SWR. Stagecoach understood what was important to keep the railway moving (well, moving most of the time), such as fleet reliability. They didn't win all those Golden Spanners for no reason - they knew the impact that fleet incidents have on the timetable into and out of Waterloo, particularly during the peaks. It is striking the number of "broken down train" reports there are on JourneyCheck now compared with the days of SWT.

The amount of times, the train has ‘broken down’ and it’s had a key left in it, someone never pressed a button long enough, run out of sand, had shoegear knocked off, or had someone break the doors over the years…..

 

[The_Train]

It looks like 57310 is now on its way to Widnes, although no onward movement from Widnes is currently shown on RTT. I imagine this delay relates to the NR problems at Polesworth.

5Z64 0630 Leicester L.I.P. to Widnes Transport Tech

Realtime Trains | 5Z64 0630 Leicester L.I.P. to Widnes Transport Tech | 10/12/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Z64 0630 departure from Leicester L.I.P. to Widnes Transport Tech on 10/12/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Did anything move out of Widnes following this move up there?

 

[LUYMun]

But the contract for the 458 refurb for the Portsmouth line (rather than use 422s) was April 2020, so the reduction in passenger numbers due to COVID restrictions would have been known, so the contract could have been stopped?

No, SWR would’ve had to pay a penalty fee if they cancelled the refurbishment project halfway through, as part of the lease deal.

 

[DelW]

But the contract for the 458 refurb for the Portsmouth line (rather than use 422s) was April 2020 [...] so the reduction in passenger numbers due to COVID restrictions would have been known, so the contract could have been stopped?
Maybe they were expecting passengers to return and use the 458s on the Portsmouth line, which they didn't?
Also seem to remember the drivers objected to the 458 cabs.

April 2020 was early in Covid, when many expected it to be a brief few weeks of restrictions, then everything back to normal.
(Edit: That date has been corrected to 2021)

No, SWR would’ve had to pay a penalty fee if they cancelled the refurbishment project halfway through, as part of the lease deal.

I remember it being said at the time that it was cheaper to carry on with the refurb (and then not use the trains) than it would have been to stop the work, odd though that sounds.

 

[Wolfie]

But the contract for the 458 refurb for the Portsmouth line (rather than use 422s) was April 2020,

Refurbishment for SWR's Class 458 trains thanks to new contract between Porterbrook and Alstom

Porterbrook has announced that South Western Railway's (SWR) fleet of Modern Railway’s ‘Golden Spanner awards’ winning Class 458 will undergo major improvements following a new deal with Alstom.

www.railadvent.co.uk

so the reduction in passenger numbers due to COVID restrictions would have been known, so the contract could have been stopped?
Maybe they were expecting passengers to return and use the 458s on the Portsmouth line, which they didn't?
Also seem to remember the drivers objected to the 458 cabs.

Once a contract is signed the contractor themselves will enter financial commitments for parts, possibly additional staff etc. Yes in theory a contract could be broken at that point but it certainly would not be cost-free and could actually in some circumstances cost more than continuing.

 

[Invincible]

No, SWR would’ve had to pay a penalty fee if they cancelled the refurbishment project halfway through, as part of the lease deal.

But should they have started it during COVID and passenger numbers were down with stiff cancellation terms?, anyway past history now.

 

[Wolfie]

But should they have started it during COVID and passenger numbers were down with stiff cancellation terms?, anyway past history now.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing....

 

[Invincible]

Probably a good business case at the time, but during COVID the risk management section could have been better?.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Dec 2024 ==

April 2020 was early in Covid, when many expected it to be a brief few weeks of restrictions, then everything back to normal

 

[43096]

The amount of times, the train has ‘broken down’ and it’s had a key left in it, someone never pressed a button long enough, run out of sand, had shoegear knocked off, or had someone break the doors over the years…..

So question on that: was it much more rigorous in terms of accurate reporting and attribution under SWT?

 

[Nogoohwell]

Pretty sure that the 450s were ordered after the 458s proved unreliable. The original plan was many more 458s.

458s were ordered with before 450s.
458 reliability issues were said to resolve around the coupling used when delivered. As I remember, they were supposed to couple to 411s and 423s for rescue purposes.
As the coupling allowed a small amount of movement, it would break the electrical connections between units.
Cant find details on dates but when this was swapped out, the units relatability rapidly improved.

 

[swt_passenger]

Why were the 458s ordered then? Couldn’t SWT have waited to order more 450s for a standardised fleet?

Later on…

The ITT SWT issued for “10 car suburban” stock, that eventually became the 458/5 conversion from 460s, and the 456 transfer, was originally written to “hint at” more 450s, or at least some sort of Desiros. IIRC they weren’t allowed to explicitly specify that Siemens stock was the only possibility, but used some weasel words about 10 car formations ‘able to work in multiple with existing trains’ or something like that, quantity was between 120 and 180 vehicles. (From memory, numbers may have been slightly different.)

What they ended up with was a way for the Rosco to keep 108 x 460/456 vehicles in service, somewhat less in number than originally asked for. I always thought it was a bit of a lash up.

The 707s of course came a bit later once they realised they still needed yet more stock.

 

[Goldfish62]

Pretty sure that the 450s were ordered after the 458s proved unreliable. The original plan was many more 458s.

Yes, the 30 458/0s were ordered in 1997 and well before Siemens decided to offer a Desiro UK design. The order was as compensation for poor performance in the early days of the franchise and also as a condition for allowing Stagecoach's purchase of Porterbrook.

Alstom later offered "Juniper 2" for SWT's slam door replacement programme, but as SWT had such a poor experience with the 458s they instead went to Siemens, placing the initial order for 450s and 444s in 2001.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

The amount of times, the train has ‘broken down’ and it’s had a key left in it, someone never pressed a button long enough, run out of sand, had shoegear knocked off, or had someone break the doors over the years…..

Vereinbaren !

 

[Bikeman78]

But the contract for the 458 refurb for the Portsmouth line (rather than use 422s) was April 2020,

Refurbishment for SWR's Class 458 trains thanks to new contract between Porterbrook and Alstom

Porterbrook has announced that South Western Railway's (SWR) fleet of Modern Railway’s ‘Golden Spanner awards’ winning Class 458 will undergo major improvements following a new deal with Alstom.

www.railadvent.co.uk

so the reduction in passenger numbers due to COVID restrictions would have been known, so the contract could have been stopped?
Maybe they were expecting passengers to return and use the 458s on the Portsmouth line, which they didn't?
Also seem to remember the drivers objected to the 458 cabs. date says April 2021

Minor detail, the date on the news item says April 2021.

 

[Siemens Staines]

Did anything move out of Widnes following this move up there?

Nothing shown as yet.

 

[The_Train]

Nothing shown as yet.

Thank you

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

April 2020 was early in Covid, when many expected it to be a brief few weeks of restrictions, then everything back to normal.


I remember it being said at the time that it was cheaper to carry on with the refurb (and then not use the trains) than it would have been to stop the work, odd though that sounds.

The OP quoted wrong. It was April 2021.