SWR Class 458 to be retained

[Bikeman78]

Considering that they're getting 22-year-old cast-offs by the end of the year, 458s don't seem outlandish.

The class 377s are more than twice as reliable and can work in multi with units already there.

 

[Doomotron]

The class 377s are more than twice as reliable and can work in multi with units already there.

The 377s can't work in multiple with the 375s, so they'll only be able to run with the limited amount of 377/5s Southeastern has (which are themselves quite unreliable).

 

[Bikeman78]

The 377s can't work in multiple with the 375s, so they'll only be able to run with the limited amount of 377/5s Southeastern has (which are themselves quite unreliable).

I would argue that more of a type it already has is better than introducing another relatively small fleet. What benefit would 458s bring to South Eastern? They wouldn't replace all the Networkers and are barely any more reliable. Some figures below

Class 465/466 - vary between 10,003 and 13,251
Class 458 - 11,344
South Eastern class 377 - 22,480
Southern class 377 - 25,284

 

[Invincible]

I am not sure that Southeastern would want 25 year old cast offs. Probably their desire would be to replace the (similarly aged Networkers) with a brand new fleet. Either the Class 458/4s will be stored or scraped once the full Class 701s enter service. (Though the Arterio roll out could take many years) Maybe the Class 458/4s could be used as a testbed for battery capabilities?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Nov 2024 ==

If SWR require extra capacity on SWML services, they will probably favour the ex LNWR Class 350/2s (albeit modified for 3rd rail capabilities) As they a familiar with the Desiro range and they offer superb reliability and build quality.

Why should trains with 10 years life left be discarded.
Why not use the 458/4s as 12 cars on the Portsmouth line (as planned), and convert the 350s and some 450s to battery operation to replace some DMUs?.

 

[Doomotron]

I would argue that more of a type it already has is better than introducing another relatively small fleet. What benefit would 458s bring to South Eastern? They wouldn't replace all the Networkers and are barely any more reliable. Some figures below

Class 465/466 - vary between 10,003 and 13,251
Class 458 - 11,344
South Eastern class 377 - 22,480
Southern class 377 - 25,284

While we're heading into speculative territory here, if SE were to get the 458/4s (which I think is unlikely anyway), they'd be getting more than double the amount of 377/1s they're getting. Operationally it wouldn't be a massive challenge as they managed the similarly sized 707 fleet well. And no fleet cascade could possibly replace all the Networkers, but while the 377 cascade can replace some of the remaining 465/9s, the 458s would be able to replace all of them with a capacity buff too.

 

[Peter Sarf]

While we're heading into speculative territory here, if SE were to get the 458/4s (which I think is unlikely anyway), they'd be getting more than double the amount of 377/1s they're getting. Operationally it wouldn't be a massive challenge as they managed the similarly sized 707 fleet well. And no fleet cascade could possibly replace all the Networkers, but while the 377 cascade can replace some of the remaining 465/9s, the 458s would be able to replace all of them with a capacity buff too.

Pity they changed the seat and traction configuration away from suburban for the 458s as that is what is needed to replace the Networkers.

 

[Class450/4DES]

Why should trains with 10 years life left be discarded.
Why not use the 458/4s as 12 cars on the Portsmouth line (as planned), and convert the 350s and some 450s to battery operation to replace some DMUs?.

This would work so well! But I think passenger demand is low though.

 

[D365]

Pity they changed the seat and traction configuration away from suburban for the 458s as that is what is needed to replace the Networkers.

A pity that the 458s are going back to 4 carriage units at all, now that they're not intended for the Portsmouth line.

 

[JonathanH]

A pity that the 458s are going back to 4 carriage units at all, now that they're not intended for the Portsmouth line.

If they are going to be surplus to requirements it doesn't matter what length they are.

 

[Doomotron]

Pity they changed the seat and traction configuration away from suburban for the 458s as that is what is needed to replace the Networkers.

To be fair the 377s have a similar interior layout, but as they're replacing the /9s on the mainline routes that's a good thing.

A pity that the 458s are going back to 4 carriage units at all, now that they're not intended for the Portsmouth line.

At present anyway. I think that even SWR themselves don't know what's going to happen with them.

 

[D6130]

At present anyway. I think that even SWR themselves don't know what's going to happen with them.

I wonder whether the imminent 'renationalisation' of SWR will have any bearing on that situation?

 

[Doomotron]

I wonder whether the imminent 'renationalisation' of SWR will have any bearing on that situation?

That rather depends on the attitude (and budget) of Great British Railways' management.

 

[Goldfish62]

That rather depends on the attitude (and budget) of Great British Railways' management.

DfT Operator Ltd actually. That's the new name for Operator of Last Resort.

 

[swt_passenger]

That rather depends on the attitude (and budget) of Great British Railways' management.

They’ll just blame the Treasury…

 

[Peter Sarf]

I wonder whether the imminent 'renationalisation' of SWR will have any bearing on that situation?

First we will know about something afoot is when the sidings where the removed 458 coaches are languishing (at Stoke ?) starts to get better security

Bring back the 442s I say.

 

[Siemens Staines]

Paths are now on RTT for the penultimate 458/4 delivery to SWR next week. I do not know whether this is for the delayed delivery of 458419 or the on time delivery of 458414

Monday 9th December 2024
5Z64 0630 Leicester L.I.P. to Widnes Transport Tech

Realtime Trains | 5Z64 0630 Leicester L.I.P. to Widnes Transport Tech | 09/12/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Z64 0630 departure from Leicester L.I.P. to Widnes Transport Tech on 09/12/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

5Q64 1104 Widnes Transport Tech to Wembley Receptions 1-7

Realtime Trains | 5Q64 1104 Widnes Transport Tech to Wembley Receptions 1-7 | 09/12/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Q64 1104 departure from Widnes Transport Tech to Wembley Receptions 1-7 on 09/12/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Tuesday 10th December 2024
5X64 1221 Wembley Receptions 1-7 to Southampton Central

Realtime Trains | 5X64 1221 Wembley Receptions 1-7 to Southampton Central | 10/12/2024

Real-time train running information for 5X64 1221 departure from Wembley Receptions 1-7 to Southampton Central on 10/12/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

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5Q64 1603 Southampton Central to Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D

Realtime Trains | 5Q64 1603 Southampton Central to Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D | 10/12/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Q64 1603 departure from Southampton Central to Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D on 10/12/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

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5Z66 2008 Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D to Eastleigh East Yard

Realtime Trains | 5Z66 2008 Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D to Eastleigh East Yard | 10/12/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Z66 2008 departure from Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D to Eastleigh East Yard on 10/12/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

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Wednesday 11th December 2024
5M07 1303 Eastleigh East Yard to Leicester L.I.P.

Realtime Trains | 5M07 1303 Eastleigh East Yard to Leicester L.I.P. | 11/12/2024

Real-time train running information for 5M07 1303 departure from Eastleigh East Yard to Leicester L.I.P. on 11/12/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[mansonlo49]

Paths are now on RTT for the penultimate 458/4 delivery to SWR next week. I do not know whether this is for the delayed delivery of 458419 or the on time delivery of 458414

Monday 9th December 2024
5Z64 0630 Leicester L.I.P. to Widnes Transport Tech

Realtime Trains | 5Z64 0630 Leicester L.I.P. to Widnes Transport Tech | 09/12/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Z64 0630 departure from Leicester L.I.P. to Widnes Transport Tech on 09/12/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

5Q64 1104 Widnes Transport Tech to Wembley Receptions 1-7

Realtime Trains | 5Q64 1104 Widnes Transport Tech to Wembley Receptions 1-7 | 09/12/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Q64 1104 departure from Widnes Transport Tech to Wembley Receptions 1-7 on 09/12/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Tuesday 10th December 2024
5X64 1221 Wembley Receptions 1-7 to Southampton Central

Realtime Trains | 5X64 1221 Wembley Receptions 1-7 to Southampton Central | 10/12/2024

Real-time train running information for 5X64 1221 departure from Wembley Receptions 1-7 to Southampton Central on 10/12/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

5Q64 1603 Southampton Central to Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D

Realtime Trains | 5Q64 1603 Southampton Central to Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D | 10/12/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Q64 1603 departure from Southampton Central to Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D on 10/12/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

5Z66 2008 Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D to Eastleigh East Yard

Realtime Trains | 5Z66 2008 Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D to Eastleigh East Yard | 10/12/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Z66 2008 departure from Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D to Eastleigh East Yard on 10/12/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Wednesday 11th December 2024
5M07 1303 Eastleigh East Yard to Leicester L.I.P.

Realtime Trains | 5M07 1303 Eastleigh East Yard to Leicester L.I.P. | 11/12/2024

Real-time train running information for 5M07 1303 departure from Eastleigh East Yard to Leicester L.I.P. on 11/12/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

the move was cancelled from Leicester to widnes

 

[Pompey00]

Will 458 still be running to Portsmouth and are they going to be stored in Fratton depot?

 

[swt_passenger]

Will 458 still be running to Portsmouth and are they going to be stored in Fratton depot?

No longer likely according to what railway staff have posted earlier in this thread. Were they to be used on Portsmouth services a few, (but not all), would be stabled at Fratton overnight, but the fleet would be given routine maintainance at Bournemouth, similar to the plan for the 442s.

 

[Russel]

How much money must SWR have wasted on these projects just to scrap them, first the 442s, now the 458s...

 

[Siemens Staines]

the move was cancelled from Leicester to widnes

It looks like 57310 is now on its way to Widnes, although no onward movement from Widnes is currently shown on RTT. I imagine this delay relates to the NR problems at Polesworth.

5Z64 0630 Leicester L.I.P. to Widnes Transport Tech

Realtime Trains | 5Z64 0630 Leicester L.I.P. to Widnes Transport Tech | 10/12/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Z64 0630 departure from Leicester L.I.P. to Widnes Transport Tech on 10/12/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Apparently a 458 caught on fire at waterloo earlier

 

[DelW]

How much money must SWR have wasted on these projects just to scrap them, first the 442s, now the 458s...

Plus the 456s had a full refurbishment by SWT near the end of their tenure, only for SWR to scrap the lot a few years later*. Had they been kept, they could now be alleviating the overcrowding on metro routes caused by SWR / DfT's slashing of the timetables.

*Per Wikipedia, refurbished 2014-5, withdrawn at the beginning of 2022.

 

[Goldfish62]

Plus the 456s had a full refurbishment by SWT near the end of their tenure, only for SWR to scrap the lot a few years later*. Had they been kept, they could now be alleviating the overcrowding on metro routes caused by SWR / DfT's slashing of the timetables.

*Per Wikipedia, refurbished 2014-5, withdrawn at the beginning of 2022.

I dare say the DfT forced SWR to get shot of the 456s when they did. Of course had the 701s been introduced when planned the 456s wouldn't have lasted as long as they did.

 

[RacsoMoquette]

Apparently a 458 caught on fire at waterloo earlier

Interesting any news reports published regarding said fire? It unfortunately may be another detrimental blow for the possible future of the Class 458/4s and may result in premature withdrawal! Any talk of them possibly doing diagrams on the SWML is now out of the window!

 

[nctd2306]

Interesting any news reports published regarding said fire? It unfortunately may be another detrimental blow for the possible future of the Class 458/4s and may result in premature withdrawal! Any talk of them possibly doing diagrams on the SWML is now out of the window!

Not necessarily, 458501 as it was then caught fire at Windsor shortly after re-entering service as a 5 car but that didn't stop the rest of the /5 program from happening

 

[TEW]

I dare say the DfT forced SWR to get shot of the 456s when they did. Of course had the 701s been introduced when planned the 456s wouldn't have lasted as long as they did.

Also at the time SWR were struggling with a shortage of maintenance staff at Wimbledon. Withdrawing the 456s allowed more 455s to be in traffic which increased the overall capacity. By the time of their withdrawal they were only really operating in 8-car formations anyway; the last 10-car formation I had was in September 2021. At the time it was probably thought sufficient capacity until the 701s entered service.

 

[DelW]

I dare say the DfT forced SWR to get shot of the 456s when they did. Of course had the 701s been introduced when planned the 456s wouldn't have lasted as long as they did.

It's hard for an outsider to judge whether SWR or DfT is the more incompetent at forward planning. I suspect that if either of them organised a p*ss-up in a brewery, it would be entirely suitable for teetotallers to attend.

It takes a spectacular degree of incompetence to:
* offload your newest fleet to another company (707s)
* scrap two recently rebuilt fleets (442s and 456s)
* expensively rebuild a fleet to make it less suitable for your current use of it (458s)
* spend five years abjectly failing to introduce the replacements you ordered, partly because you made such a mess of the spec'

and then to whine that you can't do anything to improve the rubbish timetable and endemic overcrowding, because your company is short of rolling stock.

 

[Russel]

It's hard for an outsider to judge whether SWR or DfT is the more incompetent at forward planning. I suspect that if either of them organised a p*ss-up in a brewery, it would be entirely suitable for teetotallers to attend.

It takes a spectacular degree of incompetence to:
* offload your newest fleet to another company (707s)
* scrap two recently rebuilt fleets (442s and 456s)
* expensively rebuild a fleet to make it less suitable for your current use of it (458s)
* spend five years abjectly failing to introduce the replacements you ordered, partly because you made such a mess of the spec'

and then to whine that you can't do anything to improve the rubbish timetable and endemic overcrowding, because your company is short of rolling stock.

It makes you realize, SWT really wasn't that bad!

 

[Goldfish62]

It's hard for an outsider to judge whether SWR or DfT is the more incompetent at forward planning. I suspect that if either of them organised a p*ss-up in a brewery, it would be entirely suitable for teetotallers to attend.

It takes a spectacular degree of incompetence to:
* offload your newest fleet to another company (707s)
* scrap two recently rebuilt fleets (442s and 456s)
* expensively rebuild a fleet to make it less suitable for your current use of it (458s)
* spend five years abjectly failing to introduce the replacements you ordered, partly because you made such a mess of the spec'

and then to whine that you can't do anything to improve the rubbish timetable and endemic overcrowding, because your company is short of rolling stock.

I think in this case whatever the truth and reasons there's that saying: "The optics don't look good."

I say that after enduring another rammed and late running Reading line AM peak train in the knowledge that we're not getting 10 coach trains back until June and then only on one service in each peak. Grrrr.