SWR Class 458 to be retained

[spark001uk]

5Q95 looks to be back on with 57305 hauling, VSTP in for tomorrow (Monday):
.

Realtime Trains | 5Q95 2047 Woking Up Yard Recp. to Widnes Transport Tech | 07/10/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Q95 2047 departure from Woking Up Yard Recp. to Widnes Transport Tech on 07/10/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[D365]

Apologies if I've missed anything. My understanding is that the 458/4s will no longer be operating to Portsmouth as was originally mooted when the 442s were canned. So is there anything actually gained in reducing them from 5 cars?

 

[Zeremony]

Apologies if I've missed anything. My understanding is that the 458/4s will no longer be operating to Portsmouth as was originally mooted when the 442s were canned. So is there anything actually gained in reducing them from 5 cars?

Used on Hounslow loop temporarily due to stock shortages to reduce short-forms and cancellations.
Will be deployed elsewhere once 701s take over.

 

[SWT_USER]

Apologies if I've missed anything. My understanding is that the 458/4s will no longer be operating to Portsmouth as was originally mooted when the 442s were canned. So is there anything actually gained in reducing them from 5 cars?

Yes, a tidy profit for the company carrying out the conversion, and presumably also for the ROSCO who got the lease extended.

No benefit for passengers though.

 

[spark001uk]

Apologies if I've missed anything. My understanding is that the 458/4s will no longer be operating to Portsmouth as was originally mooted when the 442s were canned. So is there anything actually gained in reducing them from 5 cars?

The obvious thing to do would be put them on Portsmouth - comfortable 2+2 seating, carpet, tables, all conducive to the longer journey, and take the higher capacity 450s that they displace and put those on the suburban instead - until the 701s are ready to replace them of course.
But hey let's not get silly now and assume they'd go with that.!!

 

[Goldfish62]

The obvious thing to do would be put them on Portsmouth - comfortable 2+2 seating, carpet, tables, all conducive to the longer journey, and take the higher capacity 450s that they displace and put those on the suburban instead. But hey let's not get silly now and assume they'd go with that.!!

There are more than sufficient 701s to cover all suburban work. More likely I'd say would be a number of 450s going off-lease.

 

[Bumpkin]

There are more than sufficient 701s to cover all suburban work. More likely I'd say would be a number of 450s going off-lease.

Don't forget though that most 450s that operate the Alton and Basingstoke stoppers are now 8 450 instead of 12 as before. The same goes for the Portsmouth via Eastleigh which often use 450s.

 

[Goldfish62]

Don't forget though that most 450s that operate the Alton and Basingstoke stoppers are now 8 450 instead of 12 as before. The same goes for the Portsmouth via Eastleigh which often use 450s.

But there are copious numbers of 450s on the suburban network, (very rough guess - around 40 units inc Windsor lines?), all of which will be displaced by 701s eventually, plus we're talking about displacement from Portsmouth line fast services. At a guess I'd say in that scenario there would be more than enough to convert all the above to 12 coaches and still have a lot surplus.

 

[DMckduck]

There are more than sufficient 701s to cover all suburban work. More likely I'd say would be a number of 450s going off-lease.

450s will still be required on some suburban services, Weybridge and reading specifically. Unless SWR plan to have basing sign 701s which is extremely unlikely or lose via Chertsey as a diversionary route.

 

[Goldfish62]

450s will still be required on some suburban services, Weybridge and reading specifically. Unless SWR plan to have basing sign 701s which is extremely unlikely or lose via Chertsey as a diversionary route.

That's a surprise! So there'll be a even larger surplus of 701s than there are already going to be. The number ordered was based on the defunct bid timetable with, as I understand, 100% of services on the Windsor lines using them.

So 701s or 450s off-lease or both? Something would have to give. Another possibility would be replacing 450s on Basingstoke stoppers and other mainline secondary services. SWR stated earlier this year that they consider the 701s to be go-anywhere trains and they won't necessarily be confined to their initial routes.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

That's a surprise! So there'll be a even larger surplus of 701s than there are already going to be.

No, that's not really what is meant. When he says "some" services will have to be 450s, he only really means some, only a few a day. So the 701s will still have the large majority to cover.

 

[spark001uk]

There are more than sufficient 701s to cover all suburban work. More likely I'd say would be a number of 450s going off-lease.

I was more referring to the decision they made at the point when the 458/4 became available. Obviously once the 701 come out to play en masse it will no longer be a problem, as you say.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

458/4s are not suitable for metro/suburban routes, especially during busy times.
Today I boarded a /4, around 3pm, and the doorway was completely full, to the point where we were all squashed together like sardines. Yet, the train really wasn't that busy. There was a lot of space further down the carriage. The problem is that because the train is in a regional configuration, there's no grab handles past the vestibule, and therefore no one moves down. It's an odd sight really.
This is not at all helped by the small aisle thanks to the larger seats.
I hate to think of what it's like when the train is actually busy...

 

[swr444]

450s will still be required on some suburban services, Weybridge and reading specifically. Unless SWR plan to have basing sign 701s which is extremely unlikely or lose via Chertsey as a diversionary route.

This isn't true. TPU have already put in 5S and 5C services for drivers to have route retention on, which have been running every day for the past year or so. Guards will probably just be made to watch a video every 6 months if they lapse on the route knowledge. I have linked one as an example.

Realtime Trains | 5C99 2145 London Waterloo to Woking | 07/10/2024

Real-time train running information for 5C99 2145 departure from London Waterloo to Woking on 07/10/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Oct 2024 ==

There are more than sufficient 701s to cover all suburban work. More likely I'd say would be a number of 450s going off-lease.

450s are currently running on a higher lease cost to cover the extra miles they're doing because they're being stretched to their limits. Once the 701s are all in service, they can go back down to normal lease costs and not get worked to the bone. They are also due a refresh / refurb which was meant to be done with the original works when SWR took over. The PIS was meant to be completely renewed.

 

[Goldfish62]

This isn't true. TPU have already put in 5S and 5C services for drivers to have route retention on, which have been running every day for the past year or so. Guards will probably just be made to watch a video every 6 months if they lapse on the route knowledge. I have linked one as an example.

Realtime Trains | 5C99 2145 London Waterloo to Woking | 07/10/2024

Real-time train running information for 5C99 2145 departure from London Waterloo to Woking on 07/10/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Oct 2024 ==


450s are currently running on a higher lease cost to cover the extra miles they're doing because they're being stretched to their limits. Once the 701s are all in service, they can go back down to normal lease costs and not get worked to the bone. They are also due a refresh / refurb which was meant to be done with the original works when SWR took over. The PIS was meant to be completely renewed.

Thanks for the info - much appreciated.

Yes, it'll be good to get the 450 refurb actually finished!

 

[DMckduck]

This isn't true. TPU have already put in 5S and 5C services for drivers to have route retention on, which have been running every day for the past year or so. Guards will probably just be made to watch a video every 6 months if they lapse on the route knowledge. I have linked one as an example.

Realtime Trains | 5C99 2145 London Waterloo to Woking | 07/10/2024

Real-time train running information for 5C99 2145 departure from London Waterloo to Woking on 07/10/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Oct 2024 ==


450s are currently running on a higher lease cost to cover the extra miles they're doing because they're being stretched to their limits. Once the 701s are all in service, they can go back down to normal lease costs and not get worked to the bone. They are also due a refresh / refurb which was meant to be done with the original works when SWR took over. The PIS was meant to be completely renewed.

What is the current plan then? All suburban guards and commercial guards will sign off 450/444 and be 701 only?

 

[swr444]

What is the current plan then? All suburban guards and commercial guards will sign off 450/444 and be 701 only?

No one knows really, I think metro will keep desiro competency for when the Byfleet curve needs working during engineering work. But we’ll see

 

[SWT_USER]

No one knows really, I think metro will keep desiro competency for when the Byfleet curve needs working during engineering work. But we’ll see

It will be interesting to see. The trend across other TOC seems to be give up diversionary knowledge, fail to provide adequate rail replacement and tell passengers not to travel during engineering work. Given the financial situation that's the cheapest option.

 

[Nogoohwell]

Be good to put the 458/4’s on the Weymouth line. The 1/3 & 2/3 doors makes them much more suitable west of Bournemouth.

Wonder if they draw less power then 444? Wasn’t that an issue with them running in pairs past Bournemouth?

 

[Bessie]

How many original 458/5 sets are still working? Also have any 458/4 sets travelled out to Reading. I can’t recall seeing any west of Virginia Water.

 

[Siemens Staines]

How many original 458/5 sets are still working? Also have any 458/4 sets travelled out to Reading. I can’t recall seeing any west of Virginia Water.

Six are active today 458514,529,530,533,535,536. The only other 458/5 is 458519 but I think that may have been stood down in readiness for its move to Widnes when 458402 is completed.

458/4 are not cleared to work to Reading so you won't see them west of Virginia Water. There was mention earlier in this thread that they will be cleared to work to Wokingham at some point in the future.

 

[spark001uk]

458/4 are not cleared to work to Reading so you won't see them west of Virginia Water. There was mention earlier in this thread that they will be cleared to work to Wokingham at some point in the future.

Is this just down to the new dampers?
Kind of ironic that the first time I ever remember seeing a 458(0) was at Reading.

 

[Goldfish62]

There haven't been any further 458/4 diagrams introduced for a while. I think we're up to 6 of the previously stated planned 8. Are any more planned or is 6 now the final number?

 

[SWT_USER]

There haven't been any further 458/4 diagrams introduced for a while. I think we're up to 6 of the previously stated planned 8. Are any more planned or is 6 now the final number?

Possibly the current staffing pressures have slowed things down? The additional stock is still desperately needed.

 

[Goldfish62]

Possibly the current staffing pressures have slowed things down? The additional stock is still desperately needed.

Yes, the rolling stock shortage seems to be getting worse if anything.

 

[Bikeman78]

Six are active today 458514,529,530,533,535,536. The only other 458/5 is 458519 but I think that may have been stood down in readiness for its move to Widnes when 458402 is completed.

458/4 are not cleared to work to Reading so you won't see them west of Virginia Water. There was mention earlier in this thread that they will be cleared to work to Wokingham at some point in the future.

What will that achieve, as opposed to signing them off all the way to Reading? There are no trains booked to terminate at Wokingham. The three short workings to Bracknell all come straight back from there. In any case, they are formed off trains that come in from Reading or Portsmouth so cannot be 458/4s.

 

[Siemens Staines]

What will that achieve, as opposed to signing them off all the way to Reading? There are no trains booked to terminate at Wokingham. The three short workings to Bracknell all come straight back from there. In any case, they are formed off trains that come in from Reading or Portsmouth so cannot be 458/4s.

FO the 2250 Waterloo - Bracknell runs ECS to Wokingham where it reverses. In some variants of the diagrams during the summer, the 2250 was a pair of 450s off 2103 Weybridge - Waterloo plus other Weybridge/Hounslow loop trains although, as you point out, it isn't at present. I can only assume this version of the diagram was being considered as going over to 458/4 which would be by Wokingham and not Reading was being considered. But operational flexibility would surely make clearing them for the last 7 miles to Reading a more logical idea?

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

I really like these trains, admittedly I travell off peak where the 8 car 2x2 seating doesn't cause a problem. They are the most comfortable trains on the Windsor lines. I can't speak for how they compare to 158/9s and 444s.

 

[WarrenTManager]

519 is awaiting a trip to Bournemouth.
514/529/530 are still in service

This morning 514 was marked as next but tonight it has switched to 519


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2024 ==

Six are active today 458514,529,530,533,535,536. The only other 458/5 is 458519 but I think that may have been stood down in readiness for its move to Widnes when 458402 is completed.

458/4 are not cleared to work to Reading so you won't see them west of Virginia Water. There was mention earlier in this thread that they will be cleared to work to Wokingham at some point in the future.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2024 ==

There haven't been any further 458/4 diagrams introduced for a while. I think we're up to 6 of the previously stated planned 8. Are any more planned or is 6 now the final number?

12 diagrams/6 pairs this week

 

[Siemens Staines]

514 is awaiting a trip to Bournemouth.
519/529/530 are still in service

Thank you very much for the update. 514 was still active on passenger duties with 529 vice 458/4 at the time of my post, so it must have been stopped within the last 24 hours