SWR Class 458 to be retained

[D6130]

The public are paying to ride on the trains, the drivers are paid to drive the trains, a massive difference.

I've no argument with that....but, if the paying public want their trains to run safely and efficiently, the comfort and well-being of the people driving them has to be taken into account. You've obviously never driven a train with a frontal gangway connection in the depths of winter, wearing two pairs of your wife's tights under your trousers to counter the freezing draughts and Wellington boots to stop your feet from getting soaked by the ingress of water around the broken door seals....while having your backside scalded by the otherwise ineffective heater beneath the hard tip-up seat which was attached directly to the cab rear vertical bulkhead and sent the shock from every dipped rail joint straight up your spine. That was the reality of driving 156s on the Settle-Carlisle line which, despite the beautiful scenery - when you weren't in the clouds - could sometimes be absolute purgatory (and not only in winter!). I've never been in the cab of a 458 - either stationary or on the move - but ex-SWT colleagues have told me that they are horrendously uncomfortable, badly laid-out and extremely draughty. Train drivers are human beings and deserve to be treated as such. The age of steam is long gone - thank goodness - and is best left to the volunteers on heritage railways.

Very well said

Ditto.

Those drivers could also smoke and drink,

Those drivers could smoke, but were not allowed to drink on or before duty. The small minority who did so often suffered the consequences of their actions....and so, unfortunately, did their passengers on occasions (cf. Eltham Well Hall, 1972)

 

[jwhite9185]

Just seen a 458 pull into Woking, empty from Wimbledon. It’s due out again in around 15 minutes, back to Wimbledon. Again, empty.

Realtime Trains | 5Z50 1330 Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs to Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs | 24/09/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Z50 1330 departure from Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs to Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs on 24/09/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[swr444]

Just seen a 458 pull into Woking, empty from Wimbledon. It’s due out again in around 15 minutes, back to Wimbledon. Again, empty.

Realtime Trains | 5Z50 1330 Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs to Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs | 24/09/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Z50 1330 departure from Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs to Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs on 24/09/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

did you get a unit number? probably doing a test run

 

[Goldfish62]

Anyhow underlying issue here is the chasm between management and unions such that they are only consulted after it’s too late. This is down to First to manage so if I was DfT I would withhold any fees to SWR for overseeing the 458 refurbishment until they were suitable for passenger use.

The refurbishment spec would have been agreed with the DfT, as it was with the conversion of 458/0 to 458/5, which also had a lot removed from it because the DfT refused to sanction the costs, eg, cab improvements, upgraded PIS.

 

[XCTurbostar]

Due to be 50007 + 50049 dragging a class 458/4.

Realtime Trains | 5Z70 1551 Leicester L.I.P. to Widnes Transport Tech | 25/09/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Z70 1551 departure from Leicester L.I.P. to Widnes Transport Tech on 25/09/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Q62 2126 Widnes Transport Tech to Wembley Receptions 1-7 | 25/09/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q62 2126 departure from Widnes Transport Tech to Wembley Receptions 1-7 on 25/09/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5X72 1435 Wembley Receptions 1-7 to Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D | 26/09/2023

Real-time train running information for 5X72 1435 departure from Wembley Receptions 1-7 to Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D on 26/09/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[jwhite9185]

did you get a unit number? probably doing a test run

458512

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

In their current state the 458s are probably just a few years behind the 455s in terms of needing to be gotten rid of, noticeably tired and shabby compared to the 450s & 707s they work alongside on the Windsor lines. If the decision is made to throw money at these trains to add another 10 years of their life then why is it unreasonable that staff might expect improvements to their working areas too. Would you also insist that an office worker be expected to continue using their monitor from the year 2000 in 2023 because it was good enough back then?

Edit: It’s funny how unions are often accused of getting in the way of ‘progress’ and ‘modernisation’, but when they are the ones asking for these things it suddenly becomes militancy

I quite like them, much more comfortable than a 450 or 455 and the 707s are a very rare sight on the Windsor lines

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It doesn't mean that it should have been. Those drivers could also smoke and drink, shall we allow that to occur now because it did historically because it was acceptable to that period of history?

Point is every new generation of train has both improved the safety aspects and working environment for drivers and rightly so but they didn’t stop driving the old trains. 458s have much better crash worthiness credentials and driver reps would have been involved in the ergonomic layout and are driving them now so not unreasonable cabs are left unchanged although given age at least a refurbishment should have been included along with any non structural improvements. As an aside given a 701 has vastly superior crash worthiness protection for driver as well as better working environment to a 455 why have the unions frustrated their introduction.

 

[Russel]

I haven't read all 60+ pages of this thread, but in summary, am I right in thinking the 458's are being refurbished to SWR spec, but SWR don't actually have any plans to use them?

What I'm reading here is getting confusing.

 

[7031]

I haven't read all 60+ pages of this thread, but in summary, am I right in thinking the 458's are being refurbished to SWR spec, but SWR don't actually have any plans to use them?

What I'm reading here is getting confusing.

Same question here.

It sounded like at one point that the 458s were likely to be marketed to other operators as soon as they were refurbished, but now it's sounding potentially more likely that SWR do in fact intend to use them?

 

[pigs bay]

I've no argument with that....but, if the paying public want their trains to run safely and efficiently, the comfort and well-being of the people driving them has to be taken into account. You've obviously never driven a train with a frontal gangway connection in the depths of winter, wearing two pairs of your wife's tights under your trousers to counter the freezing draughts and Wellington boots to stop your feet from getting soaked by the ingress of water around the broken door seals....while having your backside scalded by the otherwise ineffective heater beneath the hard tip-up seat which was attached directly to the cab rear vertical bulkhead and sent the shock from every dipped rail joint straight up your spine. That was the reality of driving 156s on the Settle-Carlisle line which, despite the beautiful scenery - when you weren't in the clouds - could sometimes be absolute purgatory (and not only in winter!). I've never been in the cab of a 458 - either stationary or on the move - but ex-SWT colleagues have told me that they are horrendously uncomfortable, badly laid-out and extremely draughty. Train drivers are human beings and deserve to be treated as such. The age of steam is long gone - thank goodness - and is best left to the volunteers on heritage railways.

Ditto.

Those drivers could smoke, but were not allowed to drink on or before duty. The small minority who did so often suffered the consequences of their actions....and so, unfortunately, did their passengers on occasions (cf. Eltham Well Hall, 1972)

I totally agree with this statement. As a former bus driver we were always told in the training school, that a comfortable driver was a SAFE driver and the same should apply for train drivers and they have far more lives, and going at a lot faster speeds than most road vehicles are permitted. I for one give these drivers my full support in getting a better, safer working environment.

 

[AndrewP]

I don't understand why if you are refurbishing a train at a significant cost this wouldn't include at least a minor cosmetic refurbishment of the staff areas - the cost difference would be minimal and I would expect pay for itself with morale improvements.

However what do I know - I work in property

 

[Western Sunset]

Wonder if the 50s will work down to Bournemouth?

 

[Russel]

Wonder if the 50s will work down to Bournemouth?

50s?

This thread gets more confusing with every post.

 

[Western Sunset]

50s?

This thread gets more confusing with every post.

See post #1805

 

[TEW]

I haven't read all 60+ pages of this thread, but in summary, am I right in thinking the 458's are being refurbished to SWR spec, but SWR don't actually have any plans to use them?

What I'm reading here is getting confusing.

That is the current state of play. SWR will carry out the required fault free running though.

 

[Invincible]

So all 36 SWR 458s are to be binned then?

Probably (as well as acceptance by drivers) depends on future passenger projections?.
On one view companies are still encouraging people back to offices, rather than homeworking, and off peak leisure travel will increase, so SWR will need a full set of rolling stock.

On another view passenger levels will not get back to pre pandemic and brexit figures, also: delays due to strikes, track problems, improvements on the A3 road (a lot of money is currently being spent on the A3 and M25 junction), etc, so there will be too many new 701s and refurbished 458s, 450s and 444s, and so some trains will have to be binned?.

Therefore some (8?) 458s will be scrapped after 701s are introduced, and the 28, to be refurbished, and so far reliable, 458/4s will likely to be in sidings in Bournemouth until future passenger numbers are confirmed?.
Possible ScotRail could use some to boost their current Juniper fleet?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Probably (as well as acceptance by drivers) depends on future passenger projections?.
On one view companies are still encouraging people back to offices, rather than homeworking, and off peak leisure travel will increase, so SWR will need a full set of rolling stock.

On another view passenger levels will not get back to pre pandemic and brexit figures, also: delays due to strikes, track problems, improvements on the A3 road (a lot of money is currently being spent on the A3 and M25 junction), etc, so there will be too many new 701s and refurbished 458s, 450s and 444s, and so some trains will have to be binned?.

Therefore some (8?) 458s will be scrapped after 701s are introduced, and the 28, to be refurbished, and so far reliable, 458/4s will likely to be in sidings in Bournemouth until future passenger numbers are confirmed?.
Possible ScotRail could use some to boost their current Juniper fleet?

Are 458s easy to convert to 25KV AC ?.

 

[Doomotron]

Are 458s easy to convert to 25KV AC ?.

The ones kept have pantograph wells but I'm not sure of the exact process. It's a good thing they're not trying to do it with the ex-460s as they had no pantograph wells at all.

 

[swt_passenger]

Are 458s easy to convert to 25KV AC ?.

Modern Railways reported years ago that it was a theoretical possibility, but when they were originally proposed for withdrawal by SWT it wasn’t considered to have a good business case. But nowadays there are other newer 4 car AC emu fleets out of use that are already AC ready. I’d suggest there’s no chance of AC conversion.

 

[Goldfish62]

Modern Railways reported years ago that it was a theoretical possibility, but when they were originally proposed for withdrawal by SWT it wasn’t considered to have a good business case. But nowadays there are other newer 4 car AC emu fleets out of use that are already AC ready. I’d suggest there’s no chance of AC conversion.

Plus Scotrail's rolling stock strategy plans on binning the 334s (and 318/320) in due course anyway.

 

[swt_passenger]

Plus Scotrail's rolling stock strategy plans on binning the 334s (and 318/320) in due course anyway.

Yes, I think that was about the only suggestion way back then, to use them as 334 augmentation. Water under the bridge now.

 

[Snow1964]

Probably (as well as acceptance by drivers) depends on future passenger projections?.
On one view companies are still encouraging people back to offices, rather than homeworking, and off peak leisure travel will increase, so SWR will need a full set of rolling stock.

On another view passenger levels will not get back to pre pandemic and brexit figures, also: delays due to strikes, track problems, improvements on the A3 road (a lot of money is currently being spent on the A3 and M25 junction), etc, so there will be too many new 701s and refurbished 458s, 450s and 444s, and so some trains will have to be binned?.

Therefore some (8?) 458s will be scrapped after 701s are introduced, and the 28, to be refurbished, and so far reliable, 458/4s will likely to be in sidings in Bournemouth until future passenger numbers are confirmed?.
Possible ScotRail could use some to boost their current Juniper fleet?

Daily Mail (ok, don't laugh), has a new article on commuting, which includes some SWR figures, basically at 68% of 4 years ago. But Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday almost back, whereas Monday and Friday low.

Apart from question of if Mon & Fri timetables need amending to match Saturday, or if Mon, Fri shouldn't have peak fares (probably for another thread), it does raise question about how much rolling stock is needed for 3 busy days

Going to be very hard to justify new trains for one morning trip, and one evening trip about 156 days per year, so really they might need them as peak hour extras Tuesday-Thursday. But if going to be used as crowdbusters, perhaps they should have retained 2+3 seating and be used in way 4VEPs were for peak hour extras

What happened to London's post Covid return to the office?

Millions of train journeys that took commuters in and out of the capital during the week are no longer taking place, prompting fears that the drive to return workers to London is failing.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Bumpkin]

But if going to be used as crowdbusters, perhaps they should have retained 2+3 seating

The 458s haven't had 2+3 since they were converted to 5 cars back in 2012/13 though. 2+3 gets more people in seats but leads to a decrease in standing space, so fewer people actually fit in, not ideal as 'crowdbusters'.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Daily Mail (ok, don't laugh), has a new article on commuting, which includes some SWR figures, basically at 68% of 4 years ago. But Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday almost back, whereas Monday and Friday low.

Apart from question of if Mon & Fri timetables need amending to match Saturday, or if Mon, Fri shouldn't have peak fares (probably for another thread), it does raise question about how much rolling stock is needed for 3 busy days

Going to be very hard to justify new trains for one morning trip, and one evening trip about 156 days per year, so really they might need them as peak hour extras Tuesday-Thursday. But if going to be used as crowdbusters, perhaps they should have retained 2+3 seating and be used in way 4VEPs were for peak hour extras

What happened to London's post Covid return to the office?

Millions of train journeys that took commuters in and out of the capital during the week are no longer taking place, prompting fears that the drive to return workers to London is failing.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I can see a solution being for people to travel in for work :-
50% Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday (early in and early home).
50% Wednesday (late in and late home), Thursday and Friday.
So with the Wednesday travel being staggered.
This is becasue people seem to like their four day weekends so the pattern being established of everyone getting the same four days off needs to be broken.

The above would give a regular use for extra stock for five days per week however it would be less extra stock needed than the current situation. It would however rely on a longer morning and evening "rush-hour" on Wednesday.

The big problem is it would not do much for season ticket revenue unless peak hours were made longer as people basically do not seem to need to travel in the pre-Covid peak hours.

I can remember years ago people wishing for more staggered commuting to get rid of the peaks. Well here is the opportunity.

 

[DelW]

Going to be very hard to justify new trains for one morning trip, and one evening trip about 156 days per year, so really they might need them as peak hour extras Tuesday-Thursday. But if going to be used as crowdbusters, perhaps they should have retained 2+3 seating and be used in way 4VEPs were for peak hour extras

Surely the plan (at one stage anyway) was that the 458s would move to the Direct to provide 2+2 seating on its long distance trains. That would have released 450s with 2+3 seating for the additional outer suburban seats you suggest, as well as removing inappropriate and unpopular high density stock from Portsmouth services.
I've no idea what the current plan might be, if indeed there is any actual planning happening at all. I have a feeling that the Direct will be lumbered with 450s for decades to come.

 

[Goldfish62]

Surely the plan (at one stage anyway) was that the 458s would move to the Direct to provide 2+2 seating on its long distance trains. That would have released 450s with 2+3 seating for the additional outer suburban seats you suggest, as well as removing inappropriate and unpopular high density stock from Portsmouth services.
I've no idea what the current plan might be, if indeed there is any actual planning happening at all. I have a feeling that the Direct will be lumbered with 450s for decades to come.

That's exactly what they're supposed to be for, but as discussed in the past few days on this thread they won't actually be used in service because the cabs haven't been refurbished and that's not acceptable to ASLEF (quite reasonably I reckon).

How many years has the Portsmouth Direct had 450s now? At least 15 if I'm not mistaken.

 

[JonathanH]

How many years has the Portsmouth Direct had 450s now? At least 15 if I'm not mistaken.

Yes, the 442s were progressively withdrawn during the latter part of 2006 as the extra 450s and the 458s were put back into service, with 444s moving off the Portsmouth line to backfill the removal of the 442s.

The original expectation had been that the 17 extra 450s would see off the 458s.

 

[Snow1964]

How many years has the Portsmouth Direct had 450s now? At least 15 if I'm not mistaken.

Nearer 19 years since they took over from some 4VEP and 4CIGs

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Nearer 19 years since they took over from some 4VEP and 4CIGs

It had very few 450s prior to the withdrawal of 442s first time around. It was literally just a handful.