SWR Class 159 problems

[ABDeltic]

In the last 2 months or so there have been numerous cases of short formed trains on the West of England line. There doesn't seem to be a regular pattern to this but every day trains are running 6 vice 8, 8 vice 9, 5 vice 6 and other variants, Some 159's have been running as 2 cars. I have heard there is a shortage of replacement engines at Salisbury Depot but what I find strange is that nothing has been said by SWR - no posters of apology at stations or information on the website. They even seem to have stopped showing WOE formation changes on the SWR Journey Check. Does anyone know what has gone wrong with what was once a very reliable fleet?

 

[hwl]

In the last 2 months or so there have been numerous cases of short formed trains on the West of England line. There doesn't seem to be a regular pattern to this but every day trains are running 6 vice 8, 8 vice 9, 5 vice 6 and other variants, Some 159's have been running as 2 cars. I have heard there is a shortage of replacement engines at Salisbury Depot but what I find strange is that nothing has been said by SWR - no posters of apology at stations or information on the website. They even seem to have stopped showing WOE formation changes on the SWR Journey Check. Does anyone know what has gone wrong with what was once a very reliable fleet?

I had heard reducing spares inventory to save a bit of cash and more authorisation need for some spare procurement.

The refurb/repaint programme is also like to be reducing unit availability slightly

 

[Mills444]

First group rocked up that's what happened

 

[AverageTD]

First group rocked up that's what happened

Well done, you got the right answer!!!

 

[Clarence Yard]

They changed the engine supplier and it hasn’t gone very well.

 

[bb21]

Ignoring the usual Chinese whispers, there is a supply continuity issue, which resulted in available stock being run to the max, which led to more trains failing, etc.

A couple of 159s were running around without the 58 car for a while but at least one is now fixed.

The rejig is trying to spread the shortage out as thinly as possible, but doesn't always work. This is likely to continue for a good while to go yet.

 

[LowLevel]

They changed the engine supplier and it hasn’t gone very well.

Moved to using a certain 2 letter group instead of sticking to paying for the original manufacturer?

 

[embers25]

SWR no longer keep spare engines or other parts on standby in Salisbury so when anything breaks it can mean long downtime. A First decision to save money.
The latest refurb variant is also a cost saving measure as off grey on the outside with no livery is cheaper. Although the reason the SWT signs have been left on all internal doors is just pure incompetence! This whole situation will get so much worse if First ever get their new timetable allowed which removes all padding and results in higher usage of units. You'll have a completely screwed up WoE line timetable plus short forms....actually hang on that's the current service most days now since sensible regulation at Honiton went out the window and some days services are held there 30 minutes despite only being 10 minutes late.

 

[paul1609]

SWR no longer keep spare engines or other parts on standby in Salisbury so when anything breaks it can mean long downtime. A First decision to save money.
The latest refurb variant is also a cost saving measure as off grey on the outside with no livery is cheaper. Although the reason the SWT signs have been left on all internal doors is just pure incompetence! This whole situation will get so much worse if First ever get their new timetable allowed which removes all padding and results in higher usage of units. You'll have a completely screwed up WoE line timetable plus short forms....actually hang on that's the current service most days now since sensible regulation at Honiton went out the window and some days services are held there 30 minutes despite only being 10 minutes late.

In all fairness in 2018 it shouldn't be necessary to hold spare engines in the depot. It does however depend on your supplier being able to supply the engines or part just in time

 

[Journeyman]

It's a bit depressing to hear this. SWT were getting absolutely miraculous reliability out of these trains, they were about the best in the country.

 

[superkev]

It's a bit depressing to hear this. SWT were getting absolutely miraculous reliability out of these trains, they were about the best in the country.

So sad the short sighted jobsworths in suits and red braces seem to have taken over. As a retired engineer we used to call it the unstoppable march of the clerks
K

 

[bb21]

These are decisions taken far above the level of "march of the clerks".

In fact some such people in the industry started off as your ordinary guard, driver, fleet engineer, etc.

 

[43096]

In all fairness in 2018 it shouldn't be necessary to hold spare engines in the depot. It does however depend on your supplier being able to supply the engines or part just in time

The evidence says otherwise.

 

[JohnR]

Surely ultimately, part of the problem is that the stock is nearly 30 years old? Which is older than Pretty much everything else that had gone before.

 

[InOban]

Maybe age is finally catching up on them, but these units have always been by far the most reliable BR-era dmus in the annual Modern Railways statistics, while the various 158 fleets always came at the bottom.

I had always assumed that, because of the disruption that would be caused by a failure on the lines out of Waterloo, these units had all the failure-prone components replaced by higher quality ones; after all these fleets were built down to a price dictated by Treasury.

However, I am told that there are other reasons. They operate only one route, past the depot. Minor faults can be sorted on the fly; units which are 'unwell' can be swapped out before they fail, and the depot is staffed largely by ex-army engineers with an esprit de corps. They must be devastated by the situation, and since these skills are highly transferrable, they will leave.

In a fair world, the accountants who took the decision to, they thought, cut costs would be responsible for the consequences. Pigs might fly.

 

[winks]

JohnR I would agree with you on this perhaps more effort should have been given to replace these trains. I emailed swt in 2016 and there were no plans to replace. But I do think First will cut back on almost everything !

 

[pompeyfan]

Walk through 3rd rail flirts? They seem to be order of the day at the moment.

 

[paul1609]

The evidence says otherwise.

No, the evidence says that the new supply chain isn't working not that it's using the wrong methodology.

 

[A0]

SWR no longer keep spare engines or other parts on standby in Salisbury so when anything breaks it can mean long downtime. A First decision to save money.
The latest refurb variant is also a cost saving measure as off grey on the outside with no livery is cheaper. Although the reason the SWT signs have been left on all internal doors is just pure incompetence! This whole situation will get so much worse if First ever get their new timetable allowed which removes all padding and results in higher usage of units. You'll have a completely screwed up WoE line timetable plus short forms....actually hang on that's the current service most days now since sensible regulation at Honiton went out the window and some days services are held there 30 minutes despite only being 10 minutes late.

I'm sure there are many reasons why those signs have been left in situ - but I very much doubt it is "incompetence".

This is one of those dreadfully over-used emotive words, usually used by people who either can't think of anything more sensible or suitable to use or are just narcissistic and want people to look at them - so which are you? And what is your professional competence to judge whether this is "incompetence" ?

 

[winks]

A guards manager told me aswell when we had the bad floods a couple of years ago the Diesels come in handy as they can still run. Re the internal signage it does actually match the SWR brand so why change it

 

[TEW]

A guards manager told me aswell when we had the bad floods a couple of years ago the Diesels come in handy as they can still run. Re the internal signage it does actually match the SWR brand so why change it

Internal signs with South West Trains on them match the SWR brand? Really?

 

[samuelmorris]

JohnR I would agree with you on this perhaps more effort should have been given to replace these trains. I emailed swt in 2016 and there were no plans to replace. But I do think First will cut back on almost everything !

If the units had best in class (by which I mean all DMUs, not just BR-era ones) reliability before First took over, I think that demonstrates that new stock is not required for reliability, nor is it likely to achieve it. This anecdotal issue may well have been something SWT would have had similar problems with but I'm somewhat sceptical based on what I've heard that it would have hit quite as hard.

 

[Helvellyn]

I had always assumed that, because of the disruption that would be caused by a failure on the lines out of Waterloo, these units had all the failure-prone components replaced by higher quality ones; after all these fleets were built down to a price dictated by Treasury.

Whatever criticisms people liked to throw at Stagecoach fleet reliability was one area they never skimped on. There are reasons they won so many Golden Spanners over the years for the in-house maintained fleets (159s, 455s, 458s).

 

[samuelmorris]

I don't remember hearing similar about East Midlands' 158s, though. Was it not that there was an exceptionally good depot at Wimbledon, that still could be if not for cutbacks?

 

[cjmillsnun]

Surely ultimately, part of the problem is that the stock is nearly 30 years old? Which is older than Pretty much everything else that had gone before.

Sorry I disagree. It is clearly a maintenance issue. You don't suddenly go from the best reliability in the business to crap. It would've been a slow decline. Whilst age doesn't help, the maintenance is obviously not being done to the standard it once was. As it is the same people doing the maintenance, it's down to one thing. Bean counters.

And as for someone saying not replacing SWT signage with SWR is not incompetence. I have to disagree. A company's brand is its image. It is their identity. It took some time, but the branding is on the outside of every train. The inside could and should have had the same basic rebranding at the same time. A more thorough job can then be done on the refresh.

 

[embers25]

I'm sure there are many reasons why those signs have been left in situ - but I very much doubt it is "incompetence".

This is one of those dreadfully over-used emotive words, usually used by people who either can't think of anything more sensible or suitable to use or are just narcissistic and want people to look at them - so which are you? And what is your professional competence to judge whether this is "incompetence" ?

Wow, someone got out the wrong side of bed, over-reaction or what?!

So when a coach is refurbed and the SWT wifi stickers, the welcome to SWT door stickers and the SWT maps are left in the advertising boards that's not incompetence and laziness? What is it then? If you are refurbing a carriage surely the 6 stickers and piece of cardboard should be factored in. Even if you haven't made the replacement sticker yet for the door sticker, you should at least remove the wifi ones. Name one reason why the SWT wifi stickers should have been left and can you imagine Stagecoach refurbishing a bus they had bought second hand and putting the bus on the road saying 'Welcome to First'?

Also the change to blue in second class is causing much confusion as most WoE guards announce First as blue and Standard as red and now you get people complaining all the time that why is First so busy, only to be told it's Standard!

As for the 159's, Salisbury depot did perform miracles but were given the tools to perform miracles with. First have taken those tools away (and key staff have left too, not wanting to deal with First destroying their depot). The internal cleanliness has dropped off dramatically too since SWR took over, but then the number of on-train cleaners also seems to have dropped. The 159's are gradually dropping down to GWR 158 level which is not a step forwards.

The decisions on holding trains are also getting more ridiculous with trains being held at Tisbury even though they could've reached Gillingham, similarly at Chard instead of Axminster and Honiton instead of Pinhoe. All of which immediately results in one train being delayed 40 minutes and often all trains for the next few hours being unnecessarily late.

The WoE line was generally a line staff could be proud of, and were, but not any more, and that's before the ridiculous timetable changes come in next May (possibly) that will destroy the line completely. People want a reliable service, missing stops to save 5 minutes when your train is always 20 minutes late is rather academic.

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought the ‘ridiculous timetable changes’ in the franchise proposals for the WofE had been binned after consultation? This probably isn’t the right thread for a timetable discussion though...

 

[WarrenTManager]

Moved to using a certain 2 letter group instead of sticking to paying for the original manufacturer?

All the problems are with the older engines. 15x engines and these are no exception have 500,000 mile warranties so there will be a legacy of engines with the previous supplier until they each reach 500k.

And as for deliberately not keeping spares. Absolute BS. I’ve heard that the engine reliability is so bad they aren’t touching the ground long enough to be in stock.

Stagecoach were going to replace the 15x fleets if they won in 2017. It was between Stadler units and 68s with Mk 5s.

SWR no longer keep spare engines or other parts on standby in Salisbury so when anything breaks it can mean long downtime. A First decision to save money.

 

[samuelmorris]

I’ve heard that the engine reliability is so bad they aren’t touching the ground long enough to be in stock.

Stagecoach were going to replace the 15x fleets if they won in 2017. It was between Stadler units and 68s with Mk 5s.

This despite the 6-figure MTIN as recently as 2017? Outdoing all but the very best EMUs as 25-year old DMUs is very impressive.

 

[MatthewRead]

What about the plans to turn them into diesel electric hybrids using Kieppe traction equipment will that improve their reliability?