SWR after May

[DM352]

"Coming soon" is a real hostage to fortune.

They forgot with focus on the 701's, an earlier BR slogan "we are getting there"

To an earlier comment on flags, they have the US ones on almost every NYC subway car which stands out on the stainless steel bodywork.

 

[The Ham]

On a SWR service earlier, the internal matrix signs were still directing to First Group's website for careers.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

On a SWR service earlier, the internal matrix signs were still directing to First Group's website for careers.

Similiar happened when SWR first started in 2017, SWT's email & Twitter addresses were still shown on the scrolling displays in the Desiros. Especially on their first week, there was very little evidence the franchise change occurred, with the Desiros still in Stagecoach colours and displaying "South West Trains" under the windows as if the change never happened, it was quite surreal.

The change from SWT to SWR obviously was gradual over the years, the SWT name fully disappeared a year later, the final Stagecoach livered Desiro got repainted a short time ago. It'll be like that with GBR, likely longer as it'll be most of England instead of one franchise region.

When you think of those upcoming new stock, these'll have to be repainted into GBR's colours especially the purple EMR ones! The new 897s ordered for the ECML could debut in the GBR livery instead of LNER's if not built yet.

 

[vuzzeho]

Interestingly enough, the SWR app's developer on the App Store is still 'First MTR South Western Trains Limited'. Of course, this isn't really something easy to change - you can't 'give' an app to a new developer. However, I'm surprised they didn't at least rename the dev profile. That said, Southeastern is still under 'The Go-Ahead Group plc', and Northern is still under 'Arriva Rail North Limited'.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interestingly enough, the SWR app's developer on the App Store is still 'First MTR South Western Trains Limited'. Of course, this isn't really something easy to change - you can't 'give' an app to a new developer. However, I'm surprised they didn't at least rename the dev profile. That said, Southeastern is still under 'The Go-Ahead Group plc', and Northern is still under 'Arriva Rail North Limited'.

At some point I expect there'll be a unification onto one of the apps and retail systems even if for now there are several branded versions of it a bit like the way Trainline does it. Until the relevant contracts expire it's probably too much effort to bother trying to shift these things around.

My suspicion would be the LNER one because it's got the most useful customisations e.g. the best seat selector by far (and really isn't that bad, I've been using it of late due to Monzo offering cashback on it).

 

[A S Leib]

I wonder what, if anything, will happen to TOC-platform specific advantages such as Club Avanti once there's a single system, if said loyalty programmes survive at all.

 

[43096]

The change from SWT to SWR obviously was gradual over the years, the SWT name fully disappeared a year later, the final Stagecoach livered Desiro got repainted a short time ago. It'll be like that with GBR, likely longer as it'll be most of England instead of one franchise region.

The SWR Desiros still have plenty of Stagecoach era signage inside. To say it was done on the cheap is an understatement.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder what, if anything, will happen to TOC-platform specific advantages such as Club Avanti once there's a single system, if said loyalty programmes survive at all.

It would be very, very nice to see a single national loyalty scheme. LNER Perks I guess would be the easiest one to roll it into if the LNER site/app was to form the basis of GBR's online retail, though I think others perhaps have more attractive features than the simple 2% cash back that offers.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 May 2025 ==

The SWR Desiros still have plenty of Stagecoach era signage inside. To say it was done on the cheap is an understatement.

WMT's 350/1s had Stagecoach signage until refurb, there's probably still some there. I assume that was because they were originally meant to be 450s.

(Curiously my old Scout hut had a toilet sign from a 350/450 on the toilet door - I have no idea who nicked it - it wasn't me! )

 

[A S Leib]

It would be very, very nice to see a single national loyalty scheme. LNER Perks I guess would be the easiest one to roll it into if the LNER site/app was to form the basis of GBR's online retail.

£1 spent = 2p returned seems a lot more understandable than Avanti's system as well (e.g. the 75-mile minimum and maximum of two qualifying journeys per day means I've split some Carlisle / Glasgow to Watford / Milton Keynes tickets at Wolverhampton or Crewe to get two which count, and I don't think Avanti's give any benefits for season ticket holders).

 

[Bletchleyite]

£1 spent = 2p returned seems a lot more understandable than Avanti's system as well (e.g. the 75-mile minimum and maximum of two qualifying journeys per day means I've split some Carlisle / Glasgow to Watford / Milton Keynes tickets at Wolverhampton or Crewe to get two which count, and I don't think Avanti's give any benefits for season ticket holders).

I think this merits its own thread:

What features should a GBR loyalty scheme have?

It would be very, very nice to see a single national loyalty scheme. LNER Perks I guess would be the easiest one to roll it into if the LNER site/app was to form the basis of GBR's online retail, though I think others perhaps have more attractive features than the simple 2% cash back that...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[OneTrackMinded]

The SWR Desiros still have plenty of Stagecoach era signage inside. To say it was done on the cheap is an understatement.

Even the interior unit numbers by the doors are in SWT blue and font.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Even the interior unit numbers by the doors are in SWT blue and font.

Why would these need to be changed?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 May 2025 ==

The SWR Desiros still have plenty of Stagecoach era signage inside. To say it was done on the cheap is an understatement.

Unless the signs actually needed changing why would you change them, it’s somewhat wasteful just for the sake of it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why would these need to be changed?

They don't need to be changed. It's only really enthusiasts in the know who would have commented on the 350/1s having SWR interior signage.

 

[Towers]

To an earlier comment on flags, they have the US ones on almost every NYC subway car which stands out on the stainless steel bodywork.

They do, but then everything in America is emblazoned with US flags, it’s a quirk of their rather insular culture. A union flag may or may not feature in any GBR livery (if there ever actually is one), but I don’t personally feel it’s essential. If it is there I only hope that its incorporation is done tastefully.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 May 2025 ==

Unless the signs actually needed changing why would you change them, it’s somewhat wasteful just for the sake of it.

Indeed, there are stations - including some major ones - still carrying signage from long defunct former TOCs because they aren’t due new signage yet!

 

[OneTrackMinded]

New article from RAIL where Lord Hendy talks about the issues facing SWR at the time of nationalisation:

Lord Hendy outlines work to do to improve renationalised South Western operation

South Western Railway became the first of ten operators to be nationalised as part of Labour's rail reform plans.

www.railmagazine.com

Speaking about South Western he added: “There’s a bit to do.

“It is, frankly, not perfect at the moment. Punctuality is not bad; cancellations are too high. They have a shortage of drivers. They have to get the new trains into service, because many have been sitting around for years.”

Hendy told RAIL: “If you’re a short-term franchise, you don’t necessarily think of the long-term health of the railway. Things are put off for the next people to deal with. Even on the South Western, franchise changeovers have not gone smoothly.”

He warned: “We will have to pay particular attention to cost, because it is too high. The bottom line is the net cost to the taxpayer and the best possible service to passengers. For the first time in 30 years, somebody will be in charge of both the operations and infrastructure, and be held accountable for the whole way the South Western will be run. That’s a really important moment.”

“They will have to sort the Arterios, some of which require repairs due to degradation before they’ve carried a passenger. Sort the union relationship. Run longer trains. Then have the first timetable recast since Andrew Haines did it more than 20 years ago, when he ran SWT (South West Trains), because the pattern of passenger demand is different now.

Interesting to see the timetable recast mentioned, which relies on the Arterios being ready.

 

[Sealink]

London to Bournemouth / Portsmouth / Southampton / Weymouth is just as "intercity" of a service as London to Dover / Hastings / Margate / Ramsgate is and they no longer have first class. It is not really a proper long distance intercity. Getting rid of First Class on SWR would add some much needed extra capacity.

Not that much, given that SWR changed the seating configuration from 2-1 to 2-2. I suppose they could remove some tables. What the train really need is luggage space, it's atrocious on the 444s.

 

[[.n]]

Not that much, given that SWR changed the seating configuration from 2-1 to 2-2. I suppose they could remove some tables. What the train really need is luggage space, it's atrocious on the 444s.

The changes SWR made on the 444 were definitely a step backwards from the SWT days - but they are still way better than so many other more "modern" trains

 

[swt_passenger]

The changes SWR made on the 444 were definitely a step backwards from the SWT days - but they are still way better than so many other more "modern" trains

AIUI from earlier threads it was SWT and DfT came up with the seating capacity modifications for 444 and 450, and the incoming SWR ran with what had already been decided.

 

[Sealink]

The changes SWR made on the 444 were definitely a step backwards from the SWT days - but they are still way better than so many other more "modern" trains

I still miss the Wessex Electrics.

 

[moley]

AIUI from earlier threads it was SWT and DfT came up with the seating capacity modifications for 444 and 450, and the incoming SWR ran with what had already been decided.

The DTF asked SWT how standard class capacity could be increased on both 444s and 450s. SWT came back with the changes possible and the DfT then put this in the franchise specification.

In fairness, on a 12 carriage 450, the guard had 3 seats whilst some passengers had none. Those changes were sensible. The changes on the 444s were a bit more marmite.

 

[Snow1964]

The tender results for the diesel fleet have been released,
covers 10 x 2car, 158, 29 x 3car 159 (107 vehicles)
5 years,
£78,901,800

Quite a lot per vehicle per year for trains that are 33-37 years old, but clearly wasn't a lot (actually none) alternatives that would be cheaper.

1 buyer​

• South Western Railway London

1 supplier​

• Porterbrook Leasing Derby

Description​

Direct award of a 5 year contract for the leasing of 10 x 2 car units of Class 158 rolling stock and 29 x 3 car units of Class 159 rolling stock . The lease of the rolling stock is on the basis that the contracting authority (rather than the supplier) is responsible for all maintenance of the vehicles. The Lease also contains a right to transfer or sub-let the contract to certain third parties and an obligation for the supplier to enter into a direct agreement with the Secretary of State in parallel to the Lease. The direct agreement permits the Secretary of State to call for a New Contract in the event of the termination or expiry of the contracting authority's services agreement with the Secretary of State. The duration of the New Contract would typically be up to 3 years and the terms of the New Contract and the circumstances in which the direct agreement can be relied upon are all unambiguously set out in the direct agreement. The Lease also contains provisions addressing adjustments to monthly rentals on the basis specified in the Lease if certain modifications to the rolling stock are required which are to be funded by the Lessor. In the event that the contract is transferred or sub-let to a third party, a direct agreement is relied upon by the Secretary of State or modifications to the rolling stock are required and are to be funded by the Lessor, it is considered that these would be permitted modifications provided for in the contract.

Award Detail​

1	Porterbrook Leasing (Derby) Lease for Class 158/159 rolling stock Reference: 1 Value: £78,901,800

​

https://bidstats.uk/tenders/2025/W27/849740150

 

[Kite159]

Would be nice if it included upgrades to have USB/3 pin plugs in standard class, similar to the other 158s.

 

[The Ham]

The tender results for the diesel fleet have been released,
covers 10 x 2car, 158, 29 x 3car 159 (107 vehicles)
5 years,
£78,901,800

Quite a lot per vehicle per year for trains that are 33-37 years old, but clearly wasn't a lot (actually none) alternatives that would be cheaper.

https://bidstats.uk/tenders/2025/W27/849740150

That works out as about £148,000 per coach per year. Given that the historical (circa 2015) value for leasing a DMU was £110,000 per coach per year, so probably not that bad.