Swansea Mum's Horror as Daughter is Left Alone

[Ferret]

But, how can you be completely convinced only having heard 1 side of the story ? I wouldn't want you serving on a jury, that much is for certain !!

It's called experience I have lost count of the times I've dealt with people failing to get off at stations, and each time it's because for whatever reason, they didn't get to the door in time. Every time, they say 'the door wouldn't open' or similar. Yes - for very good reason; I'd closed them having got the tip! Thankfully I've never had a situation where there's been a young child left behind and a Mother overcarried. Still, at least I'll know what not to do when it happens eh?

Like I say, ask yourself why the experienced traincrew in this thread are saying the same thing? I don't really care why you don't believe us, but I'll bet you a pint or two that we're right!

 

[sheff1]

Now this thread has stepped into truly bizarre territory!

I thought that had happened in the first post !

 

[SETCommuter]

We might be around the railways everyday but most people aren’t. I assume she jabbed at the door button expecting it to open at any point until the train moved and became more and more worried when it didn’t. (I think we may be in agreement!)

I think this is a great point. I'm (as my name suggests) a commuter and as such I spend a reasonable amount of time on stations and trains but I think many on here assume that everyone has the same knowledge as them.

A good example I witnessed was at Ashford International when a passenger missed his train and he said to one of the (many) platform staff there that he missed his train as he didn't know where platform 5c was. Her "helpful" reply was that Platform 5a and Platform 5b were signposted so it should have been obvious. He disagreed and said he would make a complaint. She replied that he would be welcome to complain but he would look stupid because he didn't know that c came after a and b in the alphabet and that it would have been further up the platform.

That all said, there is a massive siege mentality on this forum which, as a customer, I find somewhat worrying.

 

[Ferret]

Exactly - I don’t think she would have any understanding of dispatch, interlock, railway operations and procedures. I also doubt the reporter would have either. Even if they did it is a better story without the whole truth

That is the point people need to remember. We might be around the railways everyday but most people aren’t. I assume she jabbed at the door button expecting it to open at any point until the train moved and became more and more worried when it didn’t. (I think we may be in agreement!)

And then she pulled the passcom, probably in a blind panic. I reckon we are in agreement DarloRich!

 

[SETCommuter]

It's called experience I have lost count of the times I've dealt with people failing to get off at stations, and each time it's because for whatever reason, they didn't get to the door in time. Every time, they say 'the door wouldn't open' or similar. Yes - for very good reason; I'd closed them having got the tip! Thankfully I've never had a situation where there's been a young child left behind and a Mother overcarried. Still, at least I'll know what not to do when it happens eh?

Like I say, ask yourself why the experienced traincrew in this thread are saying the same thing? I don't really care why you don't believe us, but I'll bet you a pint or two that we're right!

I'm not saying I don't believe you. I'm not saying I believe the woman in the story either. My point is that it is automatically assumed by everyone that the passenger was wrong.
Some of the things I've seen and heard on my commute over the last few years by station staff, traincrew & reo's have led me to realise that while staff are often correct, it's not the case that they're always correct.

 

[jb]

This thread is ridiculous. It is overwhelmingly likely in my opinion that Mum was mistaken, but this is nonetheless pretty much irrelevant to anything of substance.

And as for a siege mentality in favour of crew, you're having a laugh. The only siege mentality on this forum is that fighting for the rights of the (poor downtrodden) travelling public - mostly their "rights" to ignore the rules and to act senselessly, things that the vast majority of us manage to easily avoid doing.

 

[Ferret]

That all said, there is a massive siege mentality on this forum which, as a customer, I find somewhat worrying.

Siege mentality? I don't see that. There's a hell of a lot of guff written about the railways in the press though. One thing about this forum is that we can often see through the guff enough to know what's actually happened. I refer you to the AryanTony (or whatever he was called!) fiasco, where he complained to the Beeb and anyone who'd give him the time of day about being refused wheelchair access to a train. Sure enough, when subjected to scrutiny by many members of this forum, it turned out that there had been a previous incident involving him, and it was actually AryanTony that was in the wrong - the staff, who some gullible posters on here and elsewhere were ready to hang were actually looking after the interests of a young girl!

That's the most extreme example that I can think of, but there have been several others. Us staff know that other staff don't get it right all of the time, and I'm the first to criticise obvious wrongdoings - this being one such case where the Police should've been called to take care of the girl, rather than going off on one about it not being an emergency!

 

[jon0844]

But, how can you be completely convinced only having heard 1 side of the story ? I wouldn't want you serving on a jury, that much is for certain !!

If you were put on a jury, you'd get to hear both sides. This a forum and it's okay to make assumptions or share opinions - informed or not.

People who have a good reason to know how things work are very likely to be able to make very educated guesses (and as such are often the people called to be expert witnesses). Sure, it's still for a court to decide and do the necessary questioning - but I agree with the opinion that the doors were probably locked, and weren't simply not working.

If they weren't working, there would be a log somewhere that shows this; doors can't stay out of service for long before someone would notice, either at the depot or another passenger.

Thus nobody is lying or a 'moron' but that doesn't mean you can't be mistaken.

 

[table38]

It's now a story in our favouirte newspaper!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2281765/Schoolgirl-9-left-dark-platform-conductors-refuse-stop-train-let-mother-door-didnt-work.html

Schoolgirl, 9, left alone on dark platform after conductors 'refuse' to stop train to let her mother off because door didn't work

 

[ANorthernGuard]

It's now a story in our favouirte newspaper!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2281765/Schoolgirl-9-left-dark-platform-conductors-refuse-stop-train-let-mother-door-didnt-work.html

Left a comment lets see if it get puts up, I doubt it as it mentions rules and common sense, two things that the Wail fails to comprehend at times lol

 

[table38]

Left a comment lets see if it get puts up, I doubt it as it mentions rules and common sense, two things that the Wail fails to comprehend at times lol

Heh, I'll leave one that says I bet the overpaid staff drove away deliberately and she could have been abducted by tax-dodging illegal immigrants and we'll see whose gets published first

You've got to know your audience to get appreciated.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Heh, I'll leave one that says I bet the overpaid train drove away deliberately and she could have been abducted by tax-dodging illegal immigrants and we'll see whose gets published first

You've got to know your audience to get appreciated.

hmm 2 people from Stalybridge commentating on a Wail story! now thats scary lol
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
hmm lets have some pieces of enlightened reading courtesy of Daily Wail readers

How any member of the train staff could act in this manner beggers belief. They should be disciplined and the company management should be personally fined for providing inadequate training and monitoring of their staff. And the company should be fined for having a carriage in use with a faulty door.
- Jimlad37 , Beverley,UK, 20/2/2013 17:42

Another incompetant railway worker who hides behined so call rules and is not flexible to understand the dangers that the child was in. This particular individual should be sent on two courses. 1. Customer service and attitude to towards the people that are contributing to its wages. 2. Health and Safety of passengers; more especially children. It is fairly evident that the railway was at fault, the mothers door would not open. This alone was very much a serious Health and Safety issue.
- BG , Bristol, United Kingdom, 20/2/2013 17:41

Pathetic!

 

[table38]

ANorthernGuard you are "Dr Evil" and I claim my £5

No should have been "of course madam, I will move it now" and the other should have been an emergency brake and a quick reverse which would have taken a minute or so. That would have been customer service. What she received was appalling treatment. Sackings all round if I was the train company boss.
- Dr Evil , Evil Towers, 20/2/2013 17:45

 

[ANorthernGuard]

ANorthernGuard you are "Dr Evil" and I claim my £5

tut tut you are slacking I have actually mentioned what really needed to happen (permissions blah blah blah) doubt they would post it lol

 

[Greenback]

Although I said I would not speculate further, I can reveal one fact - in over six years of commuting between Swansea, Gowerton and Llanelli, never once have I encountered or heard of a door not working.

I don't think it is possible that a door would be working at Swansea, fail at Gowerton and be operational at all the other stations on the line, but I could be wrong as I am not technically minded.

 

[trainophile]

Anyone else join me in clicking the red arrows against all the bull$h!t comments? It's good fun .

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Anyone else join me in clicking the red arrows against all the bull$h!t comments? It's good fun .

yep all of them except one lol

 

[JGR]

Woe betide anyone who gets between an emotional parent and their kid.
It's hardly surprising that she get a bit flustered when they were separated. Paranoia over child welfare has never been higher, after all.

Whether the door didn't work or not is not especially relevant. That the kid and parent ended up separated is the key event.

 

[swj99]

This thread is ridiculous. It is overwhelmingly likely in my opinion that Mum was mistaken, but this is nonetheless pretty much irrelevant to anything of substance.

And as for a siege mentality in favour of crew, you're having a laugh. The only siege mentality on this forum is that fighting for the rights of the (poor downtrodden) travelling public - mostly their "rights" to ignore the rules and to act senselessly, things that the vast majority of us manage to easily avoid doing.

The complete opposite of that could just as easily be said, as follows,

....And as for a siege mentality in favour of passengers, you're having a laugh. The only siege mentality on this forum is that fighting for the rights of the (poor downtrodden) railway employees - mostly their "rights" to ignore the rules and to act senselessly, things that the vast majority of us manage to easily avoid doing.

And it still wouldn't make for a balanced argument.

From reading the comments on the DM article about this incident, I think I understand why so many people end up thinking the worst of TOCs when things like this happen.

It seems that situations where train doors close before people have finished getting on or off a train, and problems with train doors in general, are quite common, and following on from this, maybe the issue needs to be looked at with a view to finding a solution before something worse happens.

 

[BestWestern]

Although I said I would not speculate further, I can reveal one fact - in over six years of commuting between Swansea, Gowerton and Llanelli, never once have I encountered or heard of a door not working.

I don't think it is possible that a door would be working at Swansea, fail at Gowerton and be operational at all the other stations on the line, but I could be wrong as I am not technically minded.

No, you're absolutely right.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Whether the door didn't work or not is not especially relevant. That the kid and parent ended up separated is the key event.

However, that event is unlikely to have been the fault of the railway or anybody working on it.

 

[gswindale]

That the kid and parent ended up separated is the key event.

And dare anybody ask whose fault that is?

When I was a child; I seem to recall that under no circumstances did I leave the side of my parents or other family members when on a train.

Let's look at this a slightly different way - if the girl had been playing with a friend who was getting off the stop before; then she might easily have got off the train to say goodbye. The train crew could then have started the despatch procedures which would result in the same outcome - except this time the parent may not realise for somewhat longer; however the child would be with people she knew (although if a school friend - not sure how well the parents would be known).

Would this parent now be claiming that the TOC were negligent in allowing her daughter to leave the train in the company of others?


I accept that, from the initial report, that it appears that the train crew could have handled things better; however we don't know the full story; however I do feel that the mother does need to take some responsibility for her actions as I fully believe that the whole incident could have been avoided had the parent had their child under control & supervision.

 

[sheff1]

And dare anybody ask whose fault that is?

Taking the report at face value it was the trolley attendant who prevented the child reaching the mother, and vice versa, as the train approached Gowerton.

... I fully believe that the whole incident could have been avoided had the parent had their child under control & supervision.

Control and supervison does not mean handcuffing oneself to a 9 year old child. The child being in view a couple of rows away and being called back as they approached the station sounds like reasonable supervison to me ..... but what do I know, the OP has already made it clear that I am a moron !

 

[ANorthernGuard]

oooo I made the worst rated...I am honoured lol

 

[PHILIPE]

I was waiting to board a train today at Lymington Town and waiting behind a woman and her daughter and realised they were still standing there when the light was displayed on the Open Button, The daughter was helping her mother on with her luggage but when the doors went "beep,beep......" before departure the daughter took no notice so had to go to Brockenhurst and come back again.

 

[JGR]

And dare anybody ask whose fault that is?

When I was a child; I seem to recall that under no circumstances did I leave the side of my parents or other family members when on a train.

Let's look at this a slightly different way - if the girl had been playing with a friend who was getting off the stop before; then she might easily have got off the train to say goodbye. The train crew could then have started the despatch procedures which would result in the same outcome - except this time the parent may not realise for somewhat longer; however the child would be with people she knew (although if a school friend - not sure how well the parents would be known).

Would this parent now be claiming that the TOC were negligent in allowing her daughter to leave the train in the company of others?


I accept that, from the initial report, that it appears that the train crew could have handled things better; however we don't know the full story; however I do feel that the mother does need to take some responsibility for her actions as I fully believe that the whole incident could have been avoided had the parent had their child under control & supervision.

My point is that whose "fault" it is doesn't matter that much.
Nobody appears to have been grossly negligent, it's just an unfortunate combination of otherwise harmless circumstances.

Even if we could suppose that the mother had been entirely and unambiguously at fault for dallying or whatever, it would still be prudent for some manifestation of "The Railway" to render assistance if required to a vulnerable passenger (the kid) (ie. arrange for the BTP to deal with it, if it was/had been necessary), exactly the same as if the doors had inexplicably failed.

 

[table38]

oooo I made the worst rated...I am honoured lol

Aww... I've clicked on

for you

 

[gswindale]

My point is that whose "fault" it is doesn't matter that much.
Nobody appears to have been grossly negligent, it's just an unfortunate combination of otherwise harmless circumstances.

Even if we could suppose that the mother had been entirely and unambiguously at fault for dallying or whatever, it would still be prudent for some manifestation of "The Railway" to render assistance if required to a vulnerable passenger (the kid) (ie. arrange for the BTP to deal with it, if it was/had been necessary), exactly the same as if the doors had inexplicably failed.

I think that we are agreed on that point to some extent. We don't know exactly what the reaction of "The Railway" was - we just know what one person's interpretation of their reaction was...

Control and supervison does not mean handcuffing oneself to a 9 year old child.

I never said it did.

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

Not so much about the delay minutes for me, but the risks involved in arranging an unsignalled wrong-direction movement* back to the platform, even if the Rule Book did allow it (which it doesn't) are significant!

* - I don't know the arrangements here, other than that I think it's on a single line, so the above may or may not apply!

Really? Pull up a controlled signal in rear, reminder on, points checked (if applicable), clear understanding with the driver, job done! The only time I wouldn't consider it is if a level crossing was involved that required local control. I've had an almost identical scenario happen on my panel and the driver requested to set back. I know what the rules say but the welfare of a young child being left on an isolated station late at night was too overwhelming for me to ignore. If anything had happened to her due to my unwillingness to bend the rules then I could not look myself in the eye again. For the avoidance of doubt I recorded it all in the TRB and my LOM was aware. Yes I still have a job, and no I didn't get med-screened or spoken to! Occasionally common sense does prevail... In the end the total delay to the train was 8 or 9 minutes I think. A price worth paying.

As to the isolated comments about it being fine to to abandon 9 year olds late at night I find that deeply disturbing...

 

[trainophile]

Where do you draw the line? A 12 year old? A 16 year old? It's possible the train staff didn't even know the age of the girl, which would be understandable as she was clearly old enough to have been exiting the train separately from her parent.

We do only have the mother's version of events.

 

[455driver]

Is it at all possible that we can have a rational discussion on what happened,

On here?

You are joking of course, thats why I dont post anymore!