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Sustainable Living

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YorkshireBear

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Following on from a brief discussion with 90019 and a comment from 4SKRT i decided to create a thread about the above ^^.

Now this is not a debate/discussion on climate change as that is different. This about creating a sustainable society which regardless of climate change is important as it is about effective use of resources like water etc.

So just to start off, does anyone else do sustainable solutions (or similar) as part of their education/degree/job or just have it as a passion/interest ?
 
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Zoe

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Transport is a key area that needs to be looked at. I'm not just talking about getting people out of cars, in many cases it's possible that the need to travel could be removed completely.
 

YorkshireBear

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Transport is a key area that needs to be looked at. I'm not just talking about getting people out of cars, in many cases it's possible that the need to travel could be removed completely.

Must say i agree, some travel will always happen. But something i do believe is that home delivery has its part to play in reducing travel. Especially if it can be co-ordinated in a much better way geographically. Certain villages get deliveries at a certain time of week.
 

WestCoast

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Oil will run out eventually, and although it won't be in our lifetimes, it will happen at some point.

All modes of transport need to be coverted to run on a more sustainable source of fuel. I think that should be a top priority for all concerned, ensuring that investment is dedicated to funding vital research in this field.
 

LE Greys

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Must say i agree, some travel will always happen. But something i do believe is that home delivery has its part to play in reducing travel. Especially if it can be co-ordinated in a much better way geographically. Certain villages get deliveries at a certain time of week.

How about making sure that there is somewhere to distribute things from in each village? Like a shop with a Post Office attached.

We also need to think about not wasting energy on pointless things like floodlighting buildings just so that tourists can see them, and other little tricks like putting windows in the roofs of supermarkets so that there would be no need to have the lights on during the day.
 

Greenback

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Transport is a key area that needs to be looked at. I'm not just talking about getting people out of cars, in many cases it's possible that the need to travel could be removed completely.

This is true and it's something I've thought about quite a lot.

As I see it, we have been moving inexorably away from the way humans have lived for millennia ever since the invention of that form of personal transport known as the car.

For generations, the majority of human beings lived very close to where they work, and most people never travelled far for any reason. People, walked, cycled or even rode a horse (with or without a cart) to get to work or go about whatever their business was.

Communites were pretty much self sufficient, no one wanted to eat food that was out of season, and had been flown half way across the world. Mostly, people were so poor that they were happy to eat anything they could get!

Now, of course, we are far, far better off in so many ways. We are spoiled for choice compared to olden days about where we live, what we do for a career and what we eat. But it has all come at a price. Many illnesses and diseases that were once fatal can now be treated, and we all live longer.

But it all has a price. Population continues to increase, and there will come a point where this planet will not be able to support the amount of people living on it, never mind be able to provide the ability for large numbers of people to travel around as we have all become used to.

Can we do anything about it? The cynic in me thinks not, but I also have an idealistic side to me, which hopes that solutions can be found for the problems that will be ever more obvious in the years to come. Unofrtunately, at the moment, I can't see what those solutions might be.
 

LE Greys

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This is true and it's something I've thought about quite a lot.

As I see it, we have been moving inexorably away from the way humans have lived for millennia ever since the invention of that form of personal transport known as the car.

For generations, the majority of human beings lived very close to where they work, and most people never travelled far for any reason. People, walked, cycled or even rode a horse (with or without a cart) to get to work or go about whatever their business was.

Communites were pretty much self sufficient, no one wanted to eat food that was out of season, and had been flown half way across the world. Mostly, people were so poor that they were happy to eat anything they could get!

Now, of course, we are far, far better off in so many ways. We are spoiled for choice compared to olden days about where we live, what we do for a career and what we eat. But it has all come at a price. Many illnesses and diseases that were once fatal can now be treated, and we all live longer.

But it all has a price. Population continues to increase, and there will come a point where this planet will not be able to support the amount of people living on it, never mind be able to provide the ability for large numbers of people to travel around as we have all become used to.

Can we do anything about it? The cynic in me thinks not, but I also have an idealistic side to me, which hopes that solutions can be found for the problems that will be ever more obvious in the years to come. Unofrtunately, at the moment, I can't see what those solutions might be.

Greenback, you talk sense as ever. Actually, I sometimes wonder if choice is all it's cracked up to be. I could get by without having to decide what to have for lunch every single day.
 

Minilad

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Can we do anything about it? The cynic in me thinks not, but I also have an idealistic side to me, which hopes that solutions can be found for the problems that will be ever more obvious in the years to come. Unofrtunately, at the moment, I can't see what those solutions might be.

Well the biggest one would be to stop people breeding
 

Nonsense

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Can we do anything about it? The cynic in me thinks not, but I also have an idealistic side to me, which hopes that solutions can be found for the problems that will be ever more obvious in the years to come. Unfortunately, at the moment, I can't see what those solutions might be.

Most of the problems are political. There is enough cultivatable land, if my source was correct, in Africa to feed entire planet, if only it could be properly managed.

I too am quite passionate about a sustainable future, and agree transport is a critical component. I am a techno-optimist and believe that the issues of over population can be overcome, and that resource scarcity is largely artificial. Thats not to say that there are infinite resources, but that cooperative practices and careful management, such as recycling, tax incentives, and wealth redistribution among others, might just make the world a better place for everyone.

My gut feeling though, is that biotech is gonna take off in ways we can't possibly imagine.
 

Ascot

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Purely the transport side of sustainable resources. This is something I am considering at work currently, moving to video conferencing and reducing travel for 1-2 hour meetings. Unfortunately though there are some things you just cannot replace and that is the face value of meeting someone in person.

We will never eliminate business travel even for this reason alone and so alternative bio-fuels do need to be sought as adding £££'s of tax will not reduce this high spending business market. Video conferencing does have its advantages with well established business links and has saved a small amount of travel already.

Unfortunately we cannot go back into time with a simple world and small communities as we have come too far to return. Many jobs are created to sustain the business travel industry alone and losing all of this would result in some markets just collapsing by Q2.

With regards to air vs rail on Anglo-Scottish, this has been done to death with thousands of different results and the fact of the matter is the business market will keep flying to save time and also costs most of the time. Yes you can work on a train but for the short amount of time it just doesn't justify the extended travel time. Getting from Heathrow to The City is easy for the true frequent flyers/commuters and security is easier still where you can arrive 30-40mins before departure at the car park and board with time to spare. Until rail can cut office to home times to 2.5hrs then it will not work. The sleeper is on life support for the MPs and I know many of them would rather be in their own bed on a Thursday night before constituency work but with the "green machine" in full public view they need them extra votes.

In conclusion I think it's bio/alternative fuels for the way forward. Travel will not stop be it air/rail/sail or business/leisure or commuting.
 

YorkshireBear

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now thats what i wanted :)

Now i personally believe bio fuels are not the way forward, take up too much land to grow, land that should be used for food. Giving an example of the phillipines, where in some places they cannot grow food as foriegn multi-national cooperations have bought all the land and are growing bio fuels. Not fair or sustainable.

Alternative fuels being hydrogen (as of yet not convinced) and for me nuclear all the way. I see no issue with nuclear so that for me is way forward specially if fusion can be mastered.
 

LE Greys

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now thats what i wanted :)

Now i personally believe bio fuels are not the way forward, take up too much land to grow, land that should be used for food. Giving an example of the phillipines, where in some places they cannot grow food as foriegn multi-national cooperations have bought all the land and are growing bio fuels. Not fair or sustainable.

Alternative fuels being hydrogen (as of yet not convinced) and for me nuclear all the way. I see no issue with nuclear so that for me is way forward specially if fusion can be mastered.

Hydrogen can work in fuel cells (which are effectively batteries) since it is storeable and provides an alternative to wiring miles and miles of country lanes for a very small number of vehicles. Otherwise, nuclear-electric makes a very effective form of power. I'd like to see fusion one day, but I'm steadily getting more and more sceptical about any chance of getting it working to an economic level (free Hydrogen is a ready byproduct of seawater electrolysis to extract deuterium for fusion). Otherwise, we're stuck with fission, and I hope that we can work on other forms of reactor, plus finally have the sense to bury the waste deep underground where it can decompose to safe levels over a few million years.
 

Greenback

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Most of the problems are political. There is enough cultivatable land, if my source was correct, in Africa to feed entire planet, if only it could be properly managed.

I too am quite passionate about a sustainable future, and agree transport is a critical component. I am a techno-optimist and believe that the issues of over population can be overcome, and that resource scarcity is largely artificial. Thats not to say that there are infinite resources, but that cooperative practices and careful management, such as recycling, tax incentives, and wealth redistribution among others, might just make the world a better place for everyone.

My gut feeling though, is that biotech is gonna take off in ways we can't possibly imagine.

I do so hope you are right! I'm all for co-operative practices, but this does not seem to fit well with the corporate-capitalism model we have at the moment. And neither does wealth redistribution!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
now thats what i wanted :)

Now i personally believe bio fuels are not the way forward, take up too much land to grow, land that should be used for food. Giving an example of the phillipines, where in some places they cannot grow food as foriegn multi-national cooperations have bought all the land and are growing bio fuels. Not fair or sustainable.

Alternative fuels being hydrogen (as of yet not convinced) and for me nuclear all the way. I see no issue with nuclear so that for me is way forward specially if fusion can be mastered.

I also share your concerns about bio fuels. I really think we need to look at our lifestyles first.
 

YorkshireBear

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I also share your concerns about bio fuels. I really think we need to look at our lifestyles first.

This is where the biggest stumbling block is to sustainable living. Societal change, people dont want to live sustainably because it is more expensive and more inconvenient. Until people realise the scale of the problem we are facing little can be done as any government that tries will not be re-elected or even elected in first place.
By people i am referring to those that even see recycling as pointless as many do around my area.
 

Zoe

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If there is to be a sustainable future then is there really a need to build HS2? Rather than trying to build our way out of congestion why not just remove the need to travel at all. Yes by building HS2 you will get people out of cars and planes but wouldn't it be better if people didn't need to travel at all. There is little doubt that HS2 will encourage people to travel by rail but there is the possibility that it will just result in extra demand which in the long run even HS2 itself won't be able to cope with so a new line would have to be built. Is it really a good idea to keep building when it only provides a short term solution to the issue?
 

Ascot

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If there is to be a sustainable future then is there really a need to build HS2? Rather than trying to build our way out of congestion why not just remove the need to travel at all. Yes by building HS2 you will get people out of cars and planes but wouldn't it be better if people didn't need to travel at all.

See my post above.
 

Greenback

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This is where the biggest stumbling block is to sustainable living. Societal change, people dont want to live sustainably because it is more expensive and more inconvenient. Until people realise the scale of the problem we are facing little can be done as any government that tries will not be re-elected or even elected in first place.
By people i am referring to those that even see recycling as pointless as many do around my area.

We live in a world that has, in some ways, become more and more based on convenience. Convenience foods, retail parks and superstores open all hours. Yet, at the same time, people are travelling further and more often for things like medical treatment, postal services, education, and of course, work.

Decades ago, most people lived near their workplace, bought their essentials from local butchers, grocers, and newsagents. We have all this extra choice now, but it does it bring real happiness, or merely a cosmetic contentment? We all seem to crave material goods, but are we neglecting both our planet and our souls in pursuit of something we cannot achieve?
 

WestCoast

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If there is to be a sustainable future then is there really a need to build HS2? Rather than trying to build our way out of congestion why not just remove the need to travel at all. Yes by building HS2 you will get people out of cars and planes but wouldn't it be better if people didn't need to travel at all. There is little doubt that HS2 will encourage people to travel by rail but there is the possibility that it will just result in extra demand which in the long run even HS2 itself won't be able to cope with so a new line would have to be built. Is it really a good idea to keep building when it only provides a short term solution to the issue?

There would have to be radical change on all levels of society across the world for the changes of the past 100 or so years to be undone. As many quite rightly point out, a significant proportion of people in this country have to travel because they cannot reach their place of work, centre of education, relatives/friends/business partners or even local medical facilities in the immediate area where they live.

There has also been a move towards centralization of workplaces, it's becoming ever more rare for one local employer to provide employment for a village or small town. The economy has become ever more dependent on the service sector, as small-scale manufacturing has declined.

I live in Lancashire, which has a number of large former mill towns, where at one stage the mills would have provided employment and housing for up to 80% of the local population. People lived near where they worked. The kids went to school nearby.

Without returning to that, I don't really see how demand for travel can be reduced, at least not in the next 50 years or so.

Also, please don't forget that there is SO much transport demand beyond personal travel. How do products/services reach local outlets, without taking up an enormous amount of capacity on our road, rail and air network? We've become used to expecting produce to appear on the shelves out-of-season, if this didn't happen (like in many other countries - even some of our European neighbours don't like out-of-season produce) think about how much transport capacity would be saved.
 
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Greenback

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There has also been a move towards centralization of workplaces, it's becoming ever more rare for one local employer to provide employment for a village or small town. The economy has become ever more dependent on the service sector, as small-scale manufacturing has declined.

I live in Lancashire, which has a number of large former mill towns, where at one stage the mills would have provided employment and housing for up to 80% of the local population. People lived near where they worked. The kids went to school nearby.

Without returning to that, I don't really see how demand for travel can be reduced, at least not in the next 50 years or so.

Also, please don't forget that there is SO much transport demand beyond personal travel. How do products/services reach local outlets, without taking up an enormous amount of capacity on our road, rail and air network? We've become used to expecting produce to appear on the shelves out-of-season, if this didn't happen (like in many other countries - even some of our European neighbours don't like out-of-season produce) think about how much transport capacity would be saved.

You are correct. But we may not have a choice. Things may have to be manufactured closer to where people live, and we may all have to live simpler lives. Basically, our expectations may have to change to be mor ein line with what our great grandparents might have experienced (hopefully without the abject poverty and high death rates at work).

I'm not at all sure that this would be a bad thing.
 

WestCoast

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You are correct. But we may not have a choice. Things may have to be manufactured closer to where people live, and we may all have to live simpler lives. Basically, our expectations may have to change to be mor ein line with what our great grandparents might have experienced (hopefully without the abject poverty and high death rates at work).

I'm not at all sure that this would be a bad thing.

Potentially, but I don't think this will be a factor in our lifetimes, but the generation one or two times down the line may well face some tough decisions.

It's a global problem and with the BRIC economies (Brazil-India-China-Russia) expanding rapidly and approaching European/North American living standards, it's not something that can be tackled by the UK alone.
 

Ascot

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You are correct. But we may not have a choice. Things may have to be manufactured closer to where people live, and we may all have to live simpler lives. Basically, our expectations may have to change to be mor ein line with what our great grandparents might have experienced (hopefully without the abject poverty and high death rates at work).

I'm not at all sure that this would be a bad thing.

How would this be enforced though without communism? Even with a natural progression the working class may well be forced to stop (I don't think it will but I'll stick with the scenario) but there will be people with a greater sum of money.

Let's say all them people with a greater sum of money do video conferencing, what's to stop Mr B from capitalising on this and thinking "well if everyone is video conferencing I'll go one step further and meet face to face". He'll take all the contracts and in effect hold all causing a global crisis.

Now the social side, how many teachers, mechanics and skilled trades would you need to run local businesses and where would they be trained or learn from? Families are divided now with people in the UK with strong ties to Australia so how would this play a part? More importantly how would we be able to get the global money to distribute to all these communities as we have some very well off and very poor areas with money not evenly spread out.
 

90019

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I also share your concerns about bio fuels.

My concerns about biofuels are slightly different*.
It's mainly about the effect of biofuels on engines. The current levels we are at are fine, and there's not much problem, but the plans are to increase the amounts of ethanol in fuels, which is bad news for older cars - because more ethanol is bad for older engines, it wears out parts more quickly and decreases the lifetime of some internal parts. It's fine for newer engines that have been designed for it, but older ones may not be able to cope. Additives might help, but to what extent, I don't know. The result of this would be an increase in the number of cars simply being scrapped much sooner than they would have been as they wear out quicker, which then causes an increase in production of new cars to replace them.
Ah, you may say, but these new cars will have cleaner and more efficient engines that are fine with the fuel, which is indeed the case, but what seemingly a lot of people don't realise is that the majority of emissions from a car over it's full life cycle come from the production and disposal - all of these new cars being produced is bad news for environmentalists, even though they may have cleaner engines. It's the same problem that the scrappage scheme had especially when they tried to brand it as the best thing for the environment (that made me laugh) - which took perfectly servicable cars off the roads and replaced them with newer models that all had to be produced somewhere first, meaning an extra set of production and disposal costs for the environment.
If you want to run a clean car, buy an old diesel and run it on used veg oil (most pre-common rail diesel engines can run on it with little or no modification needed), if you want to help prop up the local economy, get it serviced at the garage down the road.


*I'm something of a petrolhead, I make no bones about it. :lol:
 

Greenback

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Potentially, but I don't think this will be a factor in our lifetimes, but the generation one or two times down the line may well face some tough decisions.

It's a global problem and with the BRIC economies (Brazil-India-China-Russia) expanding rapidly and approaching European/North American living standards, it's not something that can be tackled by the UK alone.

That is, of course, correct. I am not talking about soemthing happening in the next decade or two, it is more long term than that. And it's something that can would only happen across the board, not by individual countries, and probably not by choice.

How would this be enforced though without communism? Even with a natural progression the working class may well be forced to stop (I don't think it will but I'll stick with the scenario) but there will be people with a greater sum of money.

It wouldn't be enforced though. The internet hasn't been enforced, it just 'came along' and we have adapted to it gradually over a relatively short time period.

The point is, that there ar efinite resources, and an ever increasing population. Something will have to give!

Let's say all them people with a greater sum of money do video conferencing, what's to stop Mr B from capitalising on this and thinking "well if everyone is video conferencing I'll go one step further and meet face to face". He'll take all the contracts and in effect hold all causing a global crisis.

You are assuming that the current model will continue. Human evolution suggests that might not be the case. Look back 100 years. There were certain certainties that people believed would never change. The class system for instance, or the continuation of Empire. They could not have ever imagined that scantily clad young females would be on the streets at 0200, or that a footballer could be one of the richest in the land.

Now the social side, how many teachers, mechanics and skilled trades would you need to run local businesses and where would they be trained or learn from? Families are divided now with people in the UK with strong ties to Australia so how would this play a part? More importantly how would we be able to get the global money to distribute to all these communities as we have some very well off and very poor areas with money not evenly spread out.

Families were divided in the 19th Century too, but they accepted they would probably never see each other again when they moved away, even if it was just to another part of the country. I saw the Portillo programme where an irish woman left for New York in the 1950's, and her father said he would never see her again. It was just accepted.

I'm not talking about stopping travel, or enforcing anything. It's just a possibility that resources will become so limited that travel on the scale we know today will simply not be possible.
 

Rhydgaled

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Oil will run out eventually, and although it won't be in our lifetimes, it will happen at some point.

All modes of transport need to be coverted to run on a more sustainable source of fuel. I think that should be a top priority for all concerned, ensuring that investment is dedicated to funding vital research in this field.
Very true. Something the government seems to have failed to realise is this is made much easier if you can generate huge modal shift to public transport. Think about it, bus and rail services can be planned so the vehicles can refuel at a few depot points. Therefore it is easier to introduce Hydrogen filling stations in bus and rail depots than to try and roll out nationwide charging/hydrogen stations for motorists who could run out of juice anywhere and need to be able to refuel/charge their vehicle.

But it all has a price. Population continues to increase, and there will come a point where this planet will not be able to support the amount of people living on it, never mind be able to provide the ability for large numbers of people to travel around as we have all become used to.
Well said. Even now, I think if we generate the ammount of modal shift (and some reduction of demand to travel) that is needed the population is just too big for us to get within safe limits of greenhouse gas emmisions. And that's before you start worrying about food and water supplies, factor that in and once you try to produce food more eccologically (don't forget the chemical fertilises we have been using have a negative impact too, and I think many are made from oil, hastening the date we will run out of it) even the current population is a big problem.

Well the biggest one would be to stop people breeding
That is, I believe, the only way forward that does not lead to either a climate-change induced mass-extiniction or massive reduction of the human population through starvation/dehydration or something like that. When the population of a species that does not have a natural predator starts to get too high and endangers other species that feeds on we would conduct a cull to try and keep both species alive. Our own species is having an impact on many others, but there's no way a cull of humans would be morally acceptable so limiting our breeding is the only way.

Most of the problems are political. There is enough cultivatable land, if my source was correct, in Africa to feed entire planet, if only it could be properly managed.

I too am quite passionate about a sustainable future, and agree transport is a critical component. I am a techno-optimist and believe that the issues of over population can be overcome, and that resource scarcity is largely artificial. Thats not to say that there are infinite resources, but that cooperative practices and careful management, such as recycling, tax incentives, and wealth redistribution among others, might just make the world a better place for everyone.
I don't agree, as I said farming more eccologically and trying to make transport sustainable is at least near-impossible with our current population. The human population growth must stop.

Now i personally believe bio fuels are not the way forward, take up too much land to grow, land that should be used for food. Giving an example of the phillipines, where in some places they cannot grow food as foriegn multi-national cooperations have bought all the land and are growing bio fuels. Not fair or sustainable.
Agreed, bi-fuels are near useless.

Alternative fuels being hydrogen (as of yet not convinced) and for me nuclear all the way. I see no issue with nuclear so that for me is way forward specially if fusion can be mastered.
More nuclear power yes, but only as a stop gap until we get enough wind/tidal stream generation online. As for hydrogen, I think the university of Glamorgan are trying to find micro-organisims that produce it (hence avoiding the need to use quite a lot of energy to extract it by electrolosis). If they succed, then hydrogen would probablly be a good fuel for buses, the (hopefully far fewer) remaining cars and the few (rural) railways which don't warrant electrification.

If there is to be a sustainable future then is there really a need to build HS2? Rather than trying to build our way out of congestion why not just remove the need to travel at all.

Is it really a good idea to keep building when it only provides a short term solution to the issue?
I don't think you can completly remove the need to travel, you can reduce it certainly, but with the modal-shift we need to achive the current population is still too high. I agree though that building infrastructure to increase capcity is only a short-term solution unless the population growth can be stopped in it's tracks (and, ideally, reversed as this will help cut greenhouse gas emmisions).

It's the same problem that the scrappage scheme had especially when they tried to brand it as the best thing for the environment (that made me laugh) - which took perfectly servicable cars off the roads and replaced them with newer models that all had to be produced somewhere first, meaning an extra set of production and disposal costs for the environment.
Another good point. That's one reason why I'd like to see new diesel locos resuse the body shells (and anything else that can continue to work reliably) from class 47s etc, rather than building whole new locos.
 
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There would have to be radical change on all levels of society across the world for the changes of the past 100 or so years to be undone. As many quite rightly point out, a significant proportion of people in this country have to travel because they cannot reach their place of work, centre of education, relatives/friends/business partners or even local medical facilities in the immediate area where they live.

There has also been a move towards centralization of workplaces, it's becoming ever more rare for one local employer to provide employment for a village or small town. The economy has become ever more dependent on the service sector, as small-scale manufacturing has declined.

I live in Lancashire, which has a number of large former mill towns, where at one stage the mills would have provided employment and housing for up to 80% of the local population. People lived near where they worked. The kids went to school nearby.

Without returning to that, I don't really see how demand for travel can be reduced, at least not in the next 50 years or so.

Also, please don't forget that there is SO much transport demand beyond personal travel. How do products/services reach local outlets, without taking up an enormous amount of capacity on our road, rail and air network? We've become used to expecting produce to appear on the shelves out-of-season, if this didn't happen (like in many other countries - even some of our European neighbours don't like out-of-season produce) think about how much transport capacity would be saved.

In some respects, the old steam age railway network provided a good start for integrated transport in this country, but the chance was lost after WW2 when political views prevailed.

The post war Labour administration could have restricted road transport (both goods and passenger) to linking with train services from local stations, but I suspect the Tories would have just privatised the lorry and bus services as they did anyway, and the effort may have fallen apart.

Now we have competition, which to right wingers is seen as the answer to everything. But is it really sensible to have parcel delivery vans from about 10 different companies all passing along my street every day, delivering to adjacent addresses, all with their own drivers and fuel consumption?

Similarly with supermarkets. Yes, many more people will shop online, but if five neighbours all choose different shops, then we are going to have another five separate vans delivering similar items to houses next door to each other.
 

Zamracene749

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East Durham
I think that a good percentage of our problems are down to excessive consumerism and waste, ie our throw away society.

The western world needlessly uses/discards massive amounts of meat, veg, plastic, paper, furniture, carpets, paints, building materials, electronic goods, clothing etc etc.

The amount of energy and raw materials used/ consumed just to bring that food to your home, make and transport that plastic, cloth, trendy phone or tv, new car, grow and machine that timber or plasterboard and so on would i suspect shock some folk.

We need to reduce demand, make do and mend, build to last.

Recycling is not always the answer since the processing and transport can use as much energy or chemicals as manufacturing fresh material!

The problem is, say we did turn away suddenly from excessive food, inbuilt obsolescence and constant new fashions what would happen to the economy?

Freefall in demand= drop in production= massive depression= massive unemployment= discontent= leaders out of work or even wars.

PS the fact that we are using electricity whilst we talk about this is not lost on me lol........
 

Greenback

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I think that a good percentage of our problems are down to excessive consumerism and waste, ie our throw away society.

The western world needlessly uses/discards massive amounts of meat, veg, plastic, paper, furniture, carpets, paints, building materials, electronic goods, clothing etc etc.

The amount of energy and raw materials used/ consumed just to bring that food to your home, make and transport that plastic, cloth, trendy phone or tv, new car, grow and machine that timber or plasterboard and so on would i suspect shock some folk.

We need to reduce demand, make do and mend, build to last.

Recycling is not always the answer since the processing and transport can use as much energy or chemicals as manufacturing fresh material!

The problem is, say we did turn away suddenly from excessive food, inbuilt obsolescence and constant new fashions what would happen to the economy?

Freefall in demand= drop in production= massive depression= massive unemployment= discontent= leaders out of work or even wars.

PS the fact that we are using electricity whilst we talk about this is not lost on me lol........

You have made some excellent points there, and the point about consumerism and the effect on the economy is exactly why I think we will need to have a different economic system.

I am sure it will be evolution not revolution, but we need to work in a more co-operative manner, rather than everything being geared towards profit, which is one of the reasons for the rampant consumerism and throw away society in the first place.
 

Nonsense

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20 Oct 2009
Messages
293
I don't agree, as I said farming more eccologically and trying to make transport sustainable is at least near-impossible with our current population. The human population growth must stop.

I'm not sure you understand my point.

The problems of scarcity have nothing to do with there not being enough. The practice of Set-Aside payments in the EU continues while millions live in food poverty.

It costs too much to ship surplus grain to where its needed, in Africa, for example, but an I-phone can be air-freighted halfway round the world, from the poisonous sweatshop it was made in, to be given away free with an 18 month contract.

The world isn't short of anything, it just isn't shared out fairly.

I have to disagree about farming ecologically though. Organic foods are superior, but they are labour and land intensive. GM foods and mechanisation is really the only way to ensure that everyone is fed.
 

LE Greys

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Hitchin
I'm not sure you understand my point.

The problems of scarcity have nothing to do with there not being enough. The practice of Set-Aside payments in the EU continues while millions live in food poverty.

It costs too much to ship surplus grain to where its needed, in Africa, for example, but an I-phone can be air-freighted halfway round the world, from the poisonous sweatshop it was made in, to be given away free with an 18 month contract.

The world isn't short of anything, it just isn't shared out fairly.

I have to disagree about farming ecologically though. Organic foods are superior, but they are labour and land intensive. GM foods and mechanisation is really the only way to ensure that everyone is fed.

Great way to ensure that Humanity is fed but everything else starves. I've lived in intensively-farmed land all my life, and it's a dull, sterile environment (although that's changed in the last decade or so, since it became less intensive). That's actually part of the problem, there is not enough insect life to pollinate some crops, and not enough living in the soil to break it up properly, so yields gradually tail off. That also requires fertilizer to replace all the lost nutrients, creating a whole industrial process. Then there's the fuel costs and manufacture of all the machinery.

I suppose we have the luxury of being able to care whether or not we see a Grey Partridge or hear a Skylark, but I'd rather have them than not. I'd also rather know that there will still be food grown on this land in 200 years rather than the dustbowl that is likely to result. Trying to wring every last ton out of the soil might work for a while, but it's not that sustainable.
 

Nonsense

Member
Joined
20 Oct 2009
Messages
293
Great way to ensure that Humanity is fed but everything else starves. I've lived in intensively-farmed land all my life, and it's a dull, sterile environment (although that's changed in the last decade or so, since it became less intensive). That's actually part of the problem, there is not enough insect life to pollinate some crops, and not enough living in the soil to break it up properly, so yields gradually tail off. That also requires fertilizer to replace all the lost nutrients, creating a whole industrial process. Then there's the fuel costs and manufacture of all the machinery.

I suppose we have the luxury of being able to care whether or not we see a Grey Partridge or hear a Skylark, but I'd rather have them than not. I'd also rather know that there will still be food grown on this land in 200 years rather than the dustbowl that is likely to result. Trying to wring every last ton out of the soil might work for a while, but it's not that sustainable.

Intensive farming doesn't have to be destructive in the long term. Crop rotation and fallow periods can still be followed. Soil erosion can be avoided with natural vegetation windbreaks. With centrally managed food production, biodiversity can flourish away from the intense agricultural areas.

High yield GM crops, and dare I say it, slaughterless meat and other latent food technologies, promise to solve world hunger, but only that is desired. Without a major paradigm shift its all Pie in the Sky.

It goes without saying that an increasing global population is gonna cause issues. The size of the population isn't the problem to address (there are plenty of undesirable solutions to that one) the problem is feeding and clothing and housing that growing population.
 
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