Surely not - DfT orders 8 more carriages than proposed.

[swt_passenger]

Completely different style of Richmond seating - 350 (all models, first class), 450 (1st).

Ah right. They do look similar to the 2+2 from a distance, ie through the windows - but I haven't ever travelled in the first class. In hindsight they must be different cos they recline?

 

[Pumbaa]

Yes. They are a model up from the Std seating in the 377/1 and 377/3 (old Connex style seats), ie not very comfortable and actually less back support I feel.

 

[MCR247]

And have the most over complicated reclining system going!

 

[Chris125]

Just been looking at some stuff online from NR stating the new services will be run by 333 units. Not completely familiar with the stock situation, where would these units come from?

I think the 333 was just being used as an example for modelling purposes, same with the 350, 92 and Pendolino. While perhaps based on initial thinking at the time, i cant remember it being mentioned recently.

Chris

 

[northwichcat]

I think the 333 was just being used as an example for modelling purposes, same with the 350, 92 and Pendolino. While perhaps based on initial thinking at the time, i cant remember it being mentioned recently.

Yes I think they just picked the running costs of a modern example to weigh up the cost to benefit ratio for electrification projects. 380s are mentioned in the North TPE electrification proposal yet no tender has been issued or awarded.

 

[Class377/5]

Yes I think they just picked the running costs of a modern example to weigh up the cost to benefit ratio for electrification projects. 380s are mentioned in the North TPE electrification proposal yet no tender has been issued or awarded.

Where do they mention that? Not seen that before.

 

[northwichcat]

Where do they mention that? Not seen that before.

In the documents released by DfT when they put the press release up. I can't find it now because the DfT website is a mess, which suits the government well. However, like I said the 380s weren't listed because they are very likely to be used, but to weigh up the costs of using EMUs compared to the current class 170/185 costs.

 

[swt_passenger]

In the documents released by DfT when they put the press release up. I can't find it now because the DfT website is a mess, which suits the government well. However, like I said the 380s weren't listed because they are very likely to be used, but to weigh up the costs of using EMUs compared to the current class 170/185 costs.

I concur. There are similar 'planning assumptions' in two specific areas of the proposed list of CP5 enhancements, namely north TPE electrification and MML electrification - and in both sections the context is that they are not sure what units they should be planning for because no decision has been made.

North TPE:

...it is not possible at this stage to be definitive about the rolling stock to be used. For the purposes of power supply design, assumptions have been made regarding the types and lengths of electric rolling stock, based on the use of class 319 and class 380 units. Electrically-hauled freight services have been assumed based on use of class 92 locomotives hauling 2600 tonnes;

MML:

...For the purposes of power supply design, assumptions have been made regarding the types and lengths of electric rolling stock, based on the use of
IEP, class 323 and class 319 units. Electrically-hauled freight services have been assumed based on use of class 92 locomotives.

So I definitely wouldn't read too much about rolling stock policy there, you could use this sort of stuff to split the 319 fleet about 5 different ways...

 

[bluenoxid]

It was conceived in 2008 so it is possible that is during that funny period when they were looking to unify the West Yorkshire fleet with just one fleet of trains. All sorts were suggested including more 321's and 323's to give West Yorkshire capacity but some of the ideas included West Yorkshire losing its 333 fleet. The newly electrified line between Liverpool and Manchester would have been ideal

The main reason behind this was the bid to give LM a lot more trains than have been ordered allowing their 323's to come north.

 

[tbtc]

I think the 333 was just being used as an example for modelling purposes

Yes I think they just picked the running costs of a modern example to weigh up the cost to benefit ratio for electrification projects

They are twelve years old though; I'd have used a younger EMU type as my "benchmark"

 

[northwichcat]

It was conceived in 2008 so it is possible that is during that funny period when they were looking to unify the West Yorkshire fleet with just one fleet of trains. All sorts were suggested including more 321's and 323's to give West Yorkshire capacity but some of the ideas included West Yorkshire losing its 333 fleet. The newly electrified line between Liverpool and Manchester would have been ideal

The main reason behind this was the bid to give LM a lot more trains than have been ordered allowing their 323's to come north.

Certainly the 319s hadn't been allocated a post-Thameslink use at that time and probably most people thought they would stay in the South/East as extra capacity or to replace older EMUs.

It was also the expectation that Northern would be receiving new EMUs with the 323s going to LM as per the rolling stock allocation plans. The Yorkshire RUS recommended adding to that order for additional capacity in Yorkshire. Then that went quiet and LM proposed funding a small amount towards new EMUs and offloading their 323s to Northern, which didn't go down well with RUG and the press in Yorkshire.
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They are twelve years old though; I'd have used a younger EMU type as my "benchmark"

As it is using the 333s as the benchmark, they've used a much newer EMU then what is expected to be used on the newly electrified local routes. The 319s, some of which are almost 25 years old and won't be cascaded for a couple of years yet, are the likely stock that will be used.

I've just realised that ignoring the Pendolinos the motor vehicles on the 319s have the highest track access costs of any AC EMU. The 365s have the lowest costs.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...harges/b - track usage price list for cp4.pdf

 

[northwichcat]

A Portugese publication has reported on the order and even found a picture of a LM 350 to accompany it - better than the BBC can do:

http://www.transportesemrevista.com/Default.aspx?tabid=210&language=pt-PT&id=3709