Some useful discussion in this thread.
Firstly, this sectuion of the forum contains some real experts, from different life experiences both inside and outside the industry. Collectively we given thousands of people seeking our help good advice in helping them to resolve their cases. I doubt there's another forum quite like this one!
The people seeking our advice normally know they've done something wrong. They want good, pragmatic advice on how they can best resolve their case without it having to go to court and the possibility of a criminal record. I'm sure that the vast majoroty of the population don't realise that railway ticketing offences are criminal law and not a civil matter.
It's worth remembering that what we do is:
- Establish what happened
- Check that the train company has followed the correct procedure
- Advise the OP of the possible consequences
- Tell them how the train company is likely to deal with the issue and how they can obtain a favourable outcome and what it is likely to cost
We've got a really good track record of doing this. We don't often call it wrong and if we do it's normally because we weren't given the full facts at the start. Sometimes we've discovered that train companies haven't always followed the correct procedures. Many times in the past I've though 'I wish this person would let this case go to court as they'd stand a good chance of winning', but we do need to remember (with some notable exceptions) that most people seek our advice because they want to avoid court.
It seems to me that our first priority should be to help posters respond clearly and honestly, so the railway can understand what they're getting at. Then we should be looking at tone - is the response convincingly apologetic and courteous (a point that cuts both ways - excessive courtesy and apologies may be as bad as inadequate ones)?
Agreed. A short, concise reply that hets to the point is best. A long rambling reply isn't really helpful to anyone.
The one thing I’ve often thought might be helpful would be if we could create some sort of database of previous cases to help identify the most relevant experience we have (eg type of issue, TOC involved etc)
A few years ago I did start to keep a tally of cases and the outcome. It was a bit of a ballache to do and didn't really tell me anything I didn't already know. For example:
GTR and Northern had the most cases
We never (and still don't) see any cases from c2c
TfL take a harder line etc etc
we don’t get to know the outcome in many cases
It's frustrating not to find out but we can't compel people to tell us how their case ended up.
This can be achieved if we rename threads with the outcome, companies involved etc after the case is resolved. Then it's at least easier to filter and does not require external resources.
This would be a lot for work for the Moderating Team to do. We're a group of volunteers who do all of this in our spare time. To be honest I'd rather soend the time giving advice to people.
I think ultimately once people get the outcome, that is the end of the matter for them. The vast majority of people make an account simply to get advice from the experienced forum users here and will never come back and is rather a time they would like to close off. The vast majority are not "railway people" and we can't really compel them to come back.
Agreed!
I sometimes wonder if the advice given is to send a ‘forum standard’. reply is noticed by the TOC revenue and prosecutions team
and they think.
Only a small number of caes end up on here but I do know that TOCs are aware of this forum and the advice we give.
Let’s look and see what else they have been up to
TOCs already know many people have been up to other stuff without having to read about it on here.
We have seen some cases where passengers have made their own response and then had to dig themselves back out of the hole
One case that springs to mind was when a decent response had been proof read by us but instead the OP decided to send a letter suggested by a friend who was apparently a solicitor. It ended up with them having to engage a specialist solicitor at considerable cost to extract themselves from the mess.
Hi, I made a bit of a stupid decision in January as I was caught with the wrong ticket. I was in a financial pickle and couldn't afford the full fare from St Albans to Farringdon, so bought a return to Radlett instead as I could just afford that and it would mean I could make it into work as...
www.railforums.co.uk
So we don't need to micromanage what a passenger is planning to post. Keeping a light eye on length, tone and clarity will generally be good enough. And we do have @Hadders ' oft-repeated and excellent advice to fall back on.
It's not really our job to write letters for people. My view is they should write something themselves and allow us to proof read it for them and suggest amendments. A short, concise reply mentioning the following points will normally achieve a favourable outcome with most train companies:
- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter
Some of the best help I see on here is through the dialogue as those seeking help work through the challenges that posters provide. Watching people horribly out of their depth getting onto a track where they can deal with the situation they're in and therefore mitigate the harm their conduct has caused them can be extremely rewarding.
Agreed. Often you can see the penny dropping as we talk them through what has happened and how they can resolve it.
While it may appear repetitive, it's worth remembering that those responding on here have a much broader awareness of fares issues than those seeking help. Where panic is involved, we should also be aware that the ability to absorb information is compromised and what may appear daft questions are often the flailing of someone deep in a situation far from their previous experience.
We should always remember that we're experts on here and know what's probably going to happen in most cases and how to achieve it. The people seeking our advice don't know this. Many find writing letters and explaining what has happened difficult, and cannot afford to get specialist help.
