Supermarkets discussion

[Merle Haggard]

I buy eggs from someone I know - they own a small farm and have hens normally wandering around.
Currently (or at least, the last time I bought some) , as a result of Avian Flu, poultry must be kept inside.
However, the supermarkets are selling 'free range eggs' as well as 'barn eggs' - the former, of course, at a higher price.
Makes you wonder what 'free range' means in supermarket-speak...

 

[Ediswan]

I buy eggs from someone I know - they own a small farm and have hens normally wandering around.
Currently (or at least, the last time I bought some) , as a result of Avian Flu, poultry must be kept inside.
However, the supermarkets are selling 'free range eggs' as well as 'barn eggs' - the former, of course, at a higher price.
Makes you wonder what 'free range' means in supermarket-speak...

It is allowed by law (2024)

Producers and packers will no longer need to change how eggs are labelled during mandatory bird flu housing measures. The move will reduce cost pressures on egg producers and packers and boost supply chains.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...o-support-industry-through-bird-flu-outbreaks

 

[Forty29]

I live in the South Midlands and occasionally shop in Morrisons. Having a weekend break in Yorkshire and the difference in quality and general shopping experience is second to none being much better.l know they are regarded as a northern company but still surprised at the difference.

 

[SuspectUsual]

I live in the South Midlands and occasionally shop in Morrisons. Having a weekend break in Yorkshire and the difference in quality and general shopping experience is second to none being much better.l know they are regarded as a northern company but still surprised at the difference.

Blimey. I live in North Yorkshire and I’m increasingly disillusioned with the standards in Morrisons up here.

 

[GusB]

I live in the South Midlands and occasionally shop in Morrisons. Having a weekend break in Yorkshire and the difference in quality and general shopping experience is second to none being much better.l know they are regarded as a northern company but still surprised at the difference.

Blimey. I live in North Yorkshire and I’m increasingly disillusioned with the standards in Morrisons up here.

Standards can vary quite significantly from store to store, a fact that I became acutely aware of when I worked for Safeway. I started off in a large mainstream store that had been built as a Safeway, before moving to a slightly smaller store (built by Norco and acquired by Safeway) in a smaller town. There was a huge difference in culture (and customer attitudes) and it was a much more pleasant place to work; the workforce was, on average, slightly older and it felt as if there was more pride in the shop. My final move was to a store that had just been rebranded from Presto, having originally been a Templeton's - I believe the manager came from that era, too. The less said about that experience, the better!

 

[Merle Haggard]

It is allowed by law (2024)

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...o-support-industry-through-bird-flu-outbreaks

Thanks. So labelling a product as premium when it isn't is supported by DEFRA and therefore fine.
Interesting comparison between DEFRA - in this (and other) cases supports the industry at the expense of consumers but other Departments e.g. DfT which hound the industry and support the consumer, generally speaking; or am I missing something?

 

[Hadders]

Thanks. So labelling a product as premium when it isn't is supported by DEFRA and therefore fine.
Interesting comparison between DEFRA - in this (and other) cases supports the industry at the expense of consumers but other Departments e.g. DfT which hound the industry and support the consumer, generally speaking; or am I missing something?

The DfT supporting consumers and DEFRA don’t? Can you give some examples?

 

[Merle Haggard]

The DfT supporting consumers?

Yes indeed, point taken.
But years ago when I was tangentially involved they certainly didn't support BR. For instance, simultaneously asking 'why is there no entrepreneurial spirit on BR?' and saying 'That (entrepreneurial) suggestion might possibly risk revenue so don't try it'.

 

[BuhSnarf]

Thanks. So labelling a product as premium when it isn't is supported by DEFRA and therefore fine.
Interesting comparison between DEFRA - in this (and other) cases supports the industry at the expense of consumers but other Departments e.g. DfT which hound the industry and support the consumer, generally speaking; or am I missing something?

Free-range isn't a 'premium' product. It's not the suppliers fault that they cannot let the chickens out to range freely. Whereas the supplier would have to print and order extra "non-free range" packaging which if they don't have handy might end up meaning some eggs do not get to sale. Or it means keeping back log supplies of both types of packaging.

Also, as all eggs are not free range at the minute it's not like them picking the Tesco Free Range which isn't Free Range over the "Happy Eggs Free Range" therefore meaning Tesco can sell a cheaper egg for more expensive.

It's not a great situation - but think it's the most sensible - avoiding extra costs which would end up getting passed to the consumer anyway. Most stores I've been in have a sign up anyway saying that "free range doesn't mean free range currently."

 

[styles]

It's not a great situation - but think it's the most sensible - avoiding extra costs which would end up getting passed to the consumer anyway. Most stores I've been in have a sign up anyway saying that "free range doesn't mean free range currently."

Agreed.

I've even seen some catering outlets putting temp posters up saying their eggs may not be truly free range due to the restrictions.

Also in all honesty if you're going to eat meat and animal products, an element of suffering is a necessary trade-off. Obviously you want to minimise that, but if you were a truly animal rights advocate, you'd probably be vegan anyway. The minimum requirements for 'free range' are not exactly amazing.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Free-range isn't a 'premium' product. It's not the suppliers fault that they cannot let the chickens out to range freely. Whereas the supplier would have to print and order extra "non-free range" packaging which if they don't have handy might end up meaning some eggs do not get to sale. Or it means keeping back log supplies of both types of packaging.

Also, as all eggs are not free range at the minute it's not like them picking the Tesco Free Range which isn't Free Range over the "Happy Eggs Free Range" therefore meaning Tesco can sell a cheaper egg for more expensive.

It's not a great situation - but think it's the most sensible - avoiding extra costs which would end up getting passed to the consumer anyway. Most stores I've been in have a sign up anyway saying that "free range doesn't mean free range currently."

But supermarkets charge more for 'free range' than 'barn eggs'...
Interested that there's now the category 'non-free range'. How is this different from 'barn'?

 

[styles]

But supermarkets charge more for 'free range' than 'barn eggs'...
Interested that there's now the category 'non-free range'. How is this different from 'barn'?

There is no such category.

I don't know if you've read the rules or not but hens which were caged before still can't be called free-range. They can't just be 'upgraded'. It's a temporary relaxation on labeling free-range eggs to account for temporary indoor restrictions.

I doubt the average consumer even knows the definitions. 9 hens per metre squared is hardly a thriving environment, but it is the minimum requirement for free range.

Also a significant proportion of eggs used in catering are not free range, so if you ever happen to visit that burger van on the industrial estate, probably caged.

 

[Mojo]

But supermarkets charge more for 'free range' than 'barn eggs'...
Interested that there's now the category 'non-free range'. How is this different from 'barn'?

When people say ‘Non-free range’ they are just probably talking about battery hens with very little space and are very constrained, whereas barn eggs come from hens that can move around, albeit still crowded inside a barn.

 

[Merle Haggard]

There is no such category.

I don't know if you've read the rules or not but hens which were caged before still can't be called free-range. They can't just be 'upgraded'. It's a temporary relaxation on labeling free-range eggs to account for temporary indoor restrictions.

I doubt the average consumer even knows the definitions. 9 hens per metre squared is hardly a thriving environment, but it is the minimum requirement for free range.

That's what I thought, but it was an expression used in the reply to my post.

Free-range isn't a 'premium' product. It's not the suppliers fault that they cannot let the chickens out to range freely. Whereas the supplier would have to print and order extra "non-free range" packaging which if they don't have handy might end up meaning some eggs do not get to sale. Or it means keeping back log supplies of both types of packaging.

Also, as all eggs are not free range at the minute it's not like them picking the Tesco Free Range which isn't Free Range over the "Happy Eggs Free Range" therefore meaning Tesco can sell a cheaper egg for more expensive.

It's not a great situation - but think it's the most sensible - avoiding extra costs which would end up getting passed to the consumer anyway. Most stores I've been in have a sign up anyway saying that "free range doesn't mean free range currently."

I can't understand the difficulty in packaging them as 'barn eggs'.

//

I doubt the average consumer even knows the definitions. 9 hens per metre squared is hardly a thriving environment, but it is the minimum requirement for free range.

//

Perhaps not available in your area, but local smallholdings around here sell 'free range eggs' where, like my source, a small number of hens (and a cock) wander around the yard and into the livestock field and are fed. Even kept if they have periods of not laying. A small sign by the entrance is the clue.

 

[BuhSnarf]

I can't understand the difficulty in packaging them as 'barn eggs'.

The difficulty in packaging them as 'barn eggs' is that supplier A who has been selling Free Range Eggs to the supermarkets for years will have stock piles of egg boxes printed that say 'free range' eggs on them. If they only do free range eggs they likely only have stock of 'free range' egg boxes.

When the government enforces a mandatory stay inside order they would either have to go and print / buy a seperate run of 'barn eggs' boxes which would only be used for x months until it's all over. It just adds an unecessary cost and extra pressure to an industry that alreay operates on thin margins. Stores would have re-label SELs/branding etc to remove free-range wording. It just creates a lot of extra work for the whole supply chain for a short termpoary period.

 

[Belperpete]

Perhaps not available in your area, but local smallholdings around here sell 'free range eggs' where, like my source, a small number of hens (and a cock) wander around the yard and into the livestock field and are fed. Even kept if they have periods of not laying. A small sign by the entrance is the clue.

Do they not have to obey a "stay inside" order?

 

[Merle Haggard]

Do they not have to obey a "stay inside" order?

Sorry yes, they do at the moment because of Avian Flu. Indeed, visiting the farm was how I first found out about the restrictions preventing free range.
My comment was about the normal situation, a comparison with the legislation quoted by Styles - 9 hens per square metre allows the eggs to be called 'free range' in the supermarket. I don't know much about hens, but the ones on the small holding are big! In rows of three hens in an area of one metre there wouldn't be much space (if any) between them.

 

[styles]

Perhaps not available in your area, but local smallholdings around here sell 'free range eggs' where, like my source, a small number of hens (and a cock) wander around the yard and into the livestock field and are fed. Even kept if they have periods of not laying. A small sign by the entrance is the clue.

Yes, agreed, and I personally like the idea of 'cutting out the middle person' and supporting the farmers directly. It does unfortunately mean driving around multiple farms though as, unlike Clarkson's Farm, I find most farmers do a small number of things. Some literally just do eggs. Others do honey and eggs. Others just dairy and beef, etc.

It would be nice if we happened to have a butchers, greengrocers, fishmonger, bakers, nearby, but sadly not. The convenience of the supermarket wins for 99.9% of people.

 

[Belperpete]

Yes, agreed, and I personally like the idea of 'cutting out the middle person' and supporting the farmers directly. It does unfortunately mean driving around multiple farms though as, unlike Clarkson's Farm, I find most farmers do a small number of things. Some literally just do eggs. Others do honey and eggs. Others just dairy and beef, etc.

Lots of people busy driving around multiple farms purchasing small numbers of items does not seem very "green" to me.

It would be nice if we happened to have a butchers, greengrocers, fishmonger, bakers, nearby, but sadly not. The convenience of the supermarket wins for 99.9% of people.

Agreed. When I moved to my small town, probably nearly twenty years ago, we had three greengrocers, two butchers, a fishmongers, two florists - in addition to the Co-Op, Safeway and Sommerland supermarkets. The local greengrocers were considerably cheaper than the supermarkets, with better quality. However, by the time I moved away, it was down to one greengrocer, with no butcher, fishmonger or florist - plus the same number of supermarkets, albeit now the Co-Op, Morrisons, and Aldi. People's shopping habits have changed. They prefer to buy all their food in one go from the supermarkets, and then wander around looking in charity shops and buying coffees.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

People's shopping habits have changed. They prefer to buy all their food in one go from the supermarkets, and then wander around looking in charity shops and buying coffees.

They prefer to buy all their food in one go from the supermarkets, and then wander around looking in charity shops and buying coffees.... moaning about how dead the town centre is, why doesn't the council do something to rejuvenate it, it's all coffee shops and charity shops nowadays!

 

[Belperpete]

They prefer to buy all their food in one go from the supermarkets, and then wander around looking in charity shops and buying coffees.... moaning about how dead the town centre is, why doesn't the council do something to rejuvenate it, it's all coffee shops and charity shops nowadays!

Rejuvenate it how? Bring back the cordwainers and haberdashers? There is no point wailing against the prevailing wind, spending money on something nobody wants any more. Nowadays, most people do most of their shopping in supermarkets and on-line. Charity shops and coffee shops only move in because other businesses can't survive.

Where I live now thankfully has a fairly thriving high street, but that is largely because we have tourists who have time to spend browsing the shops, and spending money in them. Without them, I suspect it would be as dead as most other high streets.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Rejuvenate it how? Bring back the cordwainers and haberdashers? There is no point wailing against the prevailing wind, spending money on something nobody wants any more. Nowadays, most people do most of their shopping in supermarkets and on-line. Charity shops and coffee shops only move in because other businesses can't survive.

Where I live now thankfully has a fairly thriving high street, but that is largely because we have tourists who have time to spend browsing the shops, and spending money in them. Without them, I suspect it would be as dead as most other high streets.

I'm not suggesting it can be. Rather I was highlighting the issue of those people who do all their shopping in out of town retail parks then moaning about the death of the high street, as though the two are unconnected.

 

[DoubleLemon]

Was doing a Sainsburys self-scan shop and the device died. Was told to just scan the nectar on another device and it will pick up where it left off. That is a very good bit of design but not sure is well known.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Stores would have re-label SELs/branding etc to remove free-range wording. It just creates a lot of extra work for the whole supply chain for a short termpoary period.

The last time it happened, shops were allowed to put explanatory signs up at the point of sale (i.e. an online notice or a notice on the shelf).

 

[GusB]

The last time it happened, shops were allowed to put explanatory signs up at the point of sale (i.e. an online notice or a notice on the shelf).

There should at the very least be some point of sale material indicating that the product isn't "what it says on the tin". Customers might not necessarily be aware that birds currently have to be kept indoors and should be informed.

It may impractical to modify the packaging, but the addition of a sticky label at the point of production isn't too onerous a task.

 

[Merle Haggard]

There should at the very least be some point of sale material indicating that the product isn't "what it says on the tin". Customers might not necessarily be aware that birds currently have to be kept indoors and should be informed.

It may impractical to modify the packaging, but the addition of a sticky label at the point of production isn't too onerous a task.

Shopping in Tesco today (not for eggs!) I noticed that there were eggs branded as free range at prices a factor of 2 to nearly 3 above that of the barn ones. There is no indication in the shop of the reality - nor is there when buying on the web. It would be interesting to know how many shoppers are aware of the situation

Coincidentally, Tesco have managed to alter the packaging of barn eggs, and they're now available only in packs of 6.

 

[cactustwirly]

My local Sainsbury's (a newish build - opened in the 2010s) is pretty good, I don't recognise any of the comments about out of date food or poor cleaning. If anything there're too well staffed, the speed at which they get cages out in the evening is impressive!

It really does depend on the store I think, the one I think Bald Rick is referring to is in much better shape than the one near where my parents recently moved (from St Albans to High Wycombe). Neither the Morrisons or Sainsbury's in central High Wycombe are very good.

My local Sainsbury's is decent, it's looking a bit tired. More the worn out flooring, the actual shelves are good and the store is clean (unlike Asda down the road)

It's currently undergoing a refurbishment with early closing and parts of the store closed off.
I noticed there is a licensing application to stay open until midnight too.

Anyone know how long refurbishments last? Has been going on for months and only a small area is completed

 

[BuhSnarf]

My local Sainsbury's is decent, it's looking a bit tired. More the worn out flooring, the actual shelves are good and the store is clean (unlike Asda down the road)

It's currently undergoing a refurbishment with early closing and parts of the store closed off.
I noticed there is a licensing application to stay open until midnight too.

Anyone know how long refurbishments last? Has been going on for months and only a small area is completed

How long is a piece of string?

It really depends how in depth the refurb is. If it's a simple relay (moving fixtures/fittings or simple changes to layout etc.) this can normally be done within a few weeks. But if it's a full refurb with lots of behind the scenes things happening then it can take much longer.

For example on a full refurbishment it might include re-siting the fridge/freezers which will mean all the ducting for the fans/cool air/power will need to be moved, or it could include relaying floors or deep cleaning various areas.

 

[davews]

Our latest Tesco refurbishment took around 4 months. The one before some years back when they extended the shop took over a year. Yes, as long as a piece of string.

 

[davehsug]

Just a minor irritation, McCoys 6 pack cheese & onion are consistently unavailable in Morrisons & Asda, at least the one I use. Lots of other flavours, but almost never cheese & onion!