Supermarkets discussion

[Russel]

I didn't claim or even imply that there was a connection. Try somebody else.

I'm asking you, as it was you that, by asking for evidence, suggests you dispute my post about self checkouts not making people redundant...

 

[AM9]

I'm asking you, as it was you that, by asking for evidence, suggests you dispute my post about self checkouts not making people redundant...

It was to question whether your assertive statement: "no one is being made redundant because of them", was just a personal opinion or had any credible backing. From your response, it was the former. I have no information either way to warrant making such a public statement so so I didn't nor will I.

 

[jon81uk]

I always much preferred them to the competition and was, on the whole, sad to see them go.

The Safeway in my hometown hadn't long been refurbished just before Morrisons took over and had lots of new things like a stone-baked pizza oven and other hot takeaway food options. Morrisons of course ripped all that out to put a pie shop in. The stonebaked pizza vs pieshop very much felt like a north vs south thing!

 

[Cambrian359]

This is another one of those nonsense reasons for not using self checkouts, no one is being made redundant because of them, shopping habits change and the till staff displaced end up doing other roles such as, as you say, home delivery driving, or click and collect picking...

Not nonsense, not every store has a home delivery operation particularly the smaller ones. So yes while in the bigger stores staff might be re assigned to pick online orders, in the smaller stores the headcount will reduce over time.
Also if staff are redeployed from tills to home delivery then there’s less need to hire home delivery staff for a period of time, again the headcount slowly reduces.
People might not be made redundant but the headcount will go down.

 

[Lewisham2221]

It was to question whether your assertive statement: "no one is being made redundant because of them", was just a personal opinion or had any credible backing. From your response, it was the former. I have no information either way to warrant making such a public statement so so I didn't nor will I.

For what it's worth, a quick Google search doesn't return anything particularly meaningful to suggest that they are causing redundancies; nothing from USDAW (the union that represents retail workers), but does suggest an almost 5 year old article from The Guardian, claiming that there are 75,000 less jobs for women. Despite the headline, the majority of the article refers to online shopping - with self checkouts only getting a fleeting mention, mid-article. It goes on to basically imply that women are incapable of anything other than manning a till - which, I'm sure we're all in agreement, is completely and utter nonsense.

Edit: The Guardian article, for those interested

Shop closures and self-checkouts cost tens of thousands of women's jobs

75,000 retail posts held by women have gone as online shopping rises, study says

www.theguardian.com

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2024 ==

Not nonsense, not every store has a home delivery operation particularly the smaller ones. So yes while in the bigger stores staff might be re assigned to pick online orders, in the smaller stores the headcount will reduce over time.
Also if staff are redeployed from tills to home delivery then there’s less need to hire home delivery staff for a period of time, again the headcount slowly reduces.
People might not be made redundant but the headcount will go down.

Yes, but that's not "people losing their jobs". And as the home delivery roles were largely new roles, a rather moot point IMO, as nobody was being employed in those roles before they existed!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In the past, has anyone on this thread shopped at Kwik Save?

 

[takno]

In the past, has anyone on this thread shopped at Kwik Save?

Not for about 30 years now. I quite liked it - it was pleasingly old-fashioned even back then

 

[Darandio]

In the past, has anyone on this thread shopped at Kwik Save?

Remember it well. Very, very cheap as well compared to other stores at the time.

 

[Cambrian359]

In the past, has anyone on this thread shopped at Kwik Save?

Currently work in a building that was built by kwik save, also shopped there with my parents as a child!

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm sure a supermarket (Sainsbury's maybe?) has recently signed a deal to trial an image recognition system on the self checkouts to try and reduce erroneous bagging approvals and approximate age so that approval isn't needed for restricted purchases if it thinks you're old enough.

Sainsbury’s is doing a remote age approval trial to simply get into some of the (locked) cabinets containing certain products in the booze aisle which have high levels of ‘shrinkage’, particulalry Jack Daniels and certain champagnes.

Tesco have been doing remote approval for a long time - I was approved that way last year.

Agreed.

I always use the staffed checkouts because I want to keep the people in their jobs.

This is a thought I have had.

It is an example of saving on cost but risks ending up paying more in taxes to keep someone on benefits. Risk it breeds complacency BUT keeping someone gainfully employed keeps them out of trouble.

But this is a fallacy. Self checkouts (and many other labour saving devices) improve productivity, and make us all, on average, better off. For example, do you only buy insurance at an insurance broker to keep people in insurance broking jobs? Do you always use the operator to connect a phone call to keep people in telecoms jobs? Do you always eat out at places that don’t have a dishwasher to keep kitchen hands in jobs? Do you only buy clothes that have been hand made to keep people in these jobs? The list is endless. Automating a till is no different to automating all manner of things in life, which has been going on for centuries, and made us all considerably better off.

 

[Lewisham2221]

In the past, has anyone on this thread shopped at Kwik Save?

Yes. With the walkthrough chiller section (complete with plastic "curtains") and the separate butchers counter, greengrocer and off-licence located after the checkouts. I think they were the only supermarket to charge for carrier bags at the time? Almost the Aldi of their time. They had quite a lot of stores around here, most are now Heron Foods, Farmfoods, Asda (via Netto), B&M or Home Bargains stores.

 

[jon81uk]

In the past, has anyone on this thread shopped at Kwik Save?

Around 30 years ago.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2024 ==

Yes. With the walkthrough chiller section (complete with plastic "curtains") and the separate butchers counter, greengrocer and off-licence located after the checkouts. I think they were the only supermarket to charge for carrier bags at the time? Almost the Aldi of their time. They had quite a lot of stores around here, most are now Heron Foods, Farmfoods, Asda (via Netto), B&M or Home Bargains stores.

Kwik Save even went further than Lidl & Aldi with the short tills and had checkouts where they packed your shopping into the trolley from the previous shopping after ringing it up on till.

 

[Trackman]

Yes. With the walkthrough chiller section (complete with plastic "curtains") and the separate butchers counter, greengrocer and off-licence located after the checkouts. I think they were the only supermarket to charge for carrier bags at the time? Almost the Aldi of their time. They had quite a lot of stores around here, most are now Heron Foods, Farmfoods, Asda (via Netto), B&M or Home Bargains stores.

Let's have it right, not an off-licence but 'LiquorSave'.
Now I have the 'Do yourself a favour, be a liquor saver' advert jingle in my head. thanks.

 

[Peter Sarf]

It's not uncommon for such comments, - usually directed at those who don't/can't use electronic payments or tickets and want what is convenient to themselves mandated for all. Soch comments are worthless and consequently ignored by most others.

Its always a bit sad to see comments refuted in such a dismissive way without much reasoning.

Ah, Safeway. I remember their introduction in the late 1960s and the one opposite Bromley South Station which happened to be about 300 yards from the family home, and also opposite an equally large (for the era) Tesco. They were definitely a cut above the quality of Tesco and carried much more of what were then quite exotic foodstuffs like avacado pears. I always much preferred them to the competition and was, on the whole, sad to see them go.

Safeway were renowned for good vegetables. My missus believes that Morrisons are better for vegetables than the competition. But I see Morrisons going down hill since taken over by their American owners (untidy and staff complain of a noticeable reduction in hours worked).

In the past, has anyone on this thread shopped at Kwik Save?

Yes occasionally - I often walked past Kwik Save in Croydon not sure why but seemed over priced to me.

Going further back how about Presto - my local in Kings Heath (Birmingham) and frequently visited in the early 80s !. In my head - "that's the Presto manifesto".

Further back in the 70s ? "Key Markets" - istr "the Key Market Cops" enforcing cheap prices.

Sainsbury’s is doing a remote age approval trial to simply get into some of the (locked) cabinets containing certain products in the booze aisle which have high levels of ‘shrinkage’, particulalry Jack Daniels and certain champagnes.

Tesco have been doing remote approval for a long time - I was approved that way last year.





But this is a fallacy. Self checkouts (and many other labour saving devices) improve productivity, and make us all, on average, better off. For example, do you only buy insurance at an insurance broker to keep people in insurance broking jobs? Do you always use the operator to connect a phone call to keep people in telecoms jobs? Do you always eat out at places that don’t have a dishwasher to keep kitchen hands in jobs? Do you only buy clothes that have been hand made to keep people in these jobs? The list is endless. Automating a till is no different to automating all manner of things in life, which has been going on for centuries, and made us all considerably better off.

That was what happened with computers allegedly taking peoples jobs - as a computer programmer I encountered some rather militant people !. What actually happened was billing etc got more complicated and the information available more interesting, I would suggest it created jobs. Without computers for example mobile phones would never have existed. Is that progress - maybe not !. But I cannot imagine coordinating family without mobiles. Back in the last century we planned better though rather than people meeting up ad hoc.

Whether this is progress with self checkouts I don't know for sure. But if it is allowing other jobs to come into existence then not a bad thing. I still prefer the human interaction personally.

---

As for online orders. My local Morrisons is rather busy in the aisles with people collecting for orders !. I have a few ex colleagues picking orders and they prefer it to the factory work they did before (it is less repetitive). I evaded the production work for maintenance. Of course it is all service industry rather than making something to actually export out of the country.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

In the past, has anyone on this thread shopped at Kwik Save?

Kwik Save failed as recently as mid 2007. Thought it was longer ago than that. Its market share having evaporated.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Kwik Save failed as recently as mid 2007. Thought it was longer ago than that. Its market share having evaporated.

Oh, as late as 2007. Perhaps the rise of Lidl and Aldi stole their market.

 

[johntea]

I was only thinking of Kwik Save the other day as at work we had a fancy new heat chamber air conditioning thing put in our server room and the 'chamber' reminded me of the frozen aisle

Albeit slightly more fancy with sliding doors rather than plastic curtains!

 

[gswindale]

That is somewhat heartless considering that there are people with certain medical infirmities who are helped by the chckout operator (some who also pack) and those people of all ages who do not easily adapt to technology owing to problems of cognitive understanding, who still want to live a somewhat normal life.

I don't think it's heartless. If you've got say 16 manned checkouts available but only 3 are staffed, with only 1 person in each queue, but the self serve checkout area is queuing half way round the store, then logic says that more self serve checkouts is the way forward.

When I used to do regular shops at our local supermarket before the introdu of of the time-saver checkouts, you had to pick your checkout carefully. One you'd be there for about 5 minutes whilst the operator scanned everything excruciatingly slowly and on another you needed to be lightening fast to bag stuff up before the packing area was full.

At least doing it myself means I can pack in a sensible order.

My only issue with the self serve checkouts in our local Sainsbury is that they've decided that everyone who shops there is a criminal and now insist on printing you a receipt to scan to let you out of the checkout area.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I don't think it's heartless. If you've got say 16 manned checkouts available but only 3 are staffed, with only 1 person in each queue, but the self serve checkout area is queuing half way round the store, then logic says that more self serve checkouts is the way forward.

.

The last time that a kind neighbour (in her 70s) took me to do a weekly shop, about a month ago when none of my twins were available to take me, noting my medical infirmaties and the fact that I have not driven since my stroke in 2012, she uses the manned checkouts at the large Sainsburys supermarket at Cheadle Royal. There were only two manned checkouts operating at 11:00 there. One had a queue of four and the other had a queue of three. all with full shopping trollies.

 

[takno]

I don't think it's heartless. If you've got say 16 manned checkouts available but only 3 are staffed, with only 1 person in each queue, but the self serve checkout area is queuing half way round the store, then logic says that more self serve checkouts is the way forward.

When I used to do regular shops at our local supermarket before the introdu of of the time-saver checkouts, you had to pick your checkout carefully. One you'd be there for about 5 minutes whilst the operator scanned everything excruciatingly slowly and on another you needed to be lightening fast to bag stuff up before the packing area was full.

At least doing it myself means I can pack in a sensible order.

My only issue with the self serve checkouts in our local Sainsbury is that they've decided that everyone who shops there is a criminal and now insist on printing you a receipt to scan to let you out of the checkout area.

My local Sainsbury's seem to have always liked putting a mix of fiercely competent and extremely challenged people on their tills. Generally it was easy to spot the problem tills and avoid them, but it's got a lot harder because they have so few tills open now, and they mostly haven't kept the fiercely competent people on them.

Since most of the self service tills take cash there I'm more than happy using them, and then tailgating somebody else out to save me from having to faff with my receipt.

 

[E27007]

Are there any figures anywhere which show the number of supermarket employees made redundant as a direct result of self-checkouts being installed? My local supermarkets always seem to be advertising for home delivery drivers and staff to pick the home delivery/click & collect orders, so it doesn't seem like employment opportunities are in short supply.

Regarding redundancy, the local Tesco employed many checkout staff on zero-hours contracts of employment, transfer from a zero-hours contract to a guaranteed hours contract was very rare according to an employee.
In the situation of a zero-hours employee, Tesco could simply cut hours or even reduce an employees hours to zero long-term. Can a zero-hours employee be made redundant?

 

[jon81uk]

Kwik Save failed as recently as mid 2007. Thought it was longer ago than that. Its market share having evaporated.

Oh, as late as 2007. Perhaps the rise of Lidl and Aldi stole their market.

Somerfield bought Kwik Save and then badly managed it, moving some stores to the more expensive Somerfield brand which then didn’t perform well. They meddled too much rather than leaving Kwik Save to run as a discounter. Then Lidl & Aldi took the discount market and Co-Op bought Somerfield killing the brand completely.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Are there any figures anywhere which show the number of supermarket employees made redundant as a direct result of self-checkouts being installed? My local supermarkets always seem to be advertising for home delivery drivers and staff to pick the home delivery/click & collect orders, so it doesn't seem like employment opportunities are in short supply.

This is another one of those nonsense reasons for not using self checkouts, no one is being made redundant because of them, shopping habits change and the till staff displaced end up doing other roles such as, as you say, home delivery driving, or click and collect picking...

Do you have evidence of this?

Of course not.

Do you have evidence that the installation of self checkouts has resulted directly in the loss of someone's job?

Staff churn in retail is above average so redundancies when a store continues to trade but requires fewer staff are almost unheard of - any required reduction almost always comes from not replacing staff who leave

 

[Peter Sarf]

Staff churn in retail is above average so redundancies when a store continues to trade but requires fewer staff are almost unheard of - any required reduction almost always comes from not replacing staff who leave

Indeed, thanks for reminding me. It is well known that staff move onwards and upwards from Retail and Catering to (physically) less demanding jobs. I have encountered recruiters saying they will always pick someone who has learnt to graft in Retail and/or Catering, they will stick at most other jobs more reliably. That is not to say leaving retail guarantees a job if there are not vacancies around.

Amazon seems to be another place of work to graduate up from !. I suppose that is retail competing with supermarkets.

 

[sprunt]

Can a zero-hours employee be made redundant?

Yes, although I'd imagine it's rare for them to have been in post long enough to qualify for redundancy pay. Where they did, the pay would be based on the average weekly pay they'd received over the previous [some number I'm unsure of] weeks.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Yes, although I'd imagine it's rare for them to have been in post long enough to qualify for redundancy pay. Where they did, the pay would be based on the average weekly pay they'd received over the previous [some number I'm unsure of] weeks.

12 weeks, but only if the person concerned is classified as an employee rather than a worker

 

[Bald Rick]

I have encountered recruiters saying they will always pick someone who has learnt to graft in Retail and/or Catering, they will stick at most other jobs more reliably.

Thats interesting, I didnt know that. My first full time job was in Retail, my second in Catering, the third Railways. The first two involved shift working, anti social hours, dirty work, and occaisonal dealings with the public… (insert own punchline)

 

[takno]

Thats interesting, I didnt know that. My first full time job was in Retail, my second in Catering, the third Railways. The first two involved shift working, anti social hours, dirty work, and occaisonal dealings with the public… (insert own punchline)

I don't actively prefer people who've done retail, but it's pretty common for people who have worked retail or catering to be less trouble to motivate and manage. I always enjoyed those kinds of jobs over less intensive ones. The absolute worst job I ever did was working for Severn Trent, where we used to put in about an hour of work in a typical day - finding ways to waste the other 7 hours was basically torture.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I don't actively prefer people who've done retail, but it's pretty common for people who have worked retail or catering to be less trouble to motivate and manage. I always enjoyed those kinds of jobs over less intensive ones. The absolute worst job I ever did was working for Severn Trent, where we used to put in about an hour of work in a typical day - finding ways to waste the other 7 hours was basically torture.

Indeed, being busy is easier than trying to look busy.

 

[Busaholic]

I don't actively prefer people who've done retail, but it's pretty common for people who have worked retail or catering to be less trouble to motivate and manage. I always enjoyed those kinds of jobs over less intensive ones. The absolute worst job I ever did was working for Severn Trent, where we used to put in about an hour of work in a typical day - finding ways to waste the other 7 hours was basically torture.

I had that with London Transport as first a management trainee, then when I got a non-job, My colleagues, of whom there were far too many, thought I was mad to quit such a cushy job, But at 24 and married I needed motivation and pride that I was working hard in a worthwhile job.