Super OffPeak 9F restrictions

[miami]

Looked a bit closer into restrictions and see if there's a cheaper way of getting between the North West and London after my recent voyage further up north

Best I can get at the moment is throwing away the outbound of an off peak return (I gather I can't excess the outbound to stop short in Manchester or similar)

Normal ticket
Manchester-Euston SOS £156
Euston-Manchester SVH - £40.80

Total £196.80, and a restriction on the return to 1900 or later

Euston to Lancaster Off Peak return, allowing me to travel Manchester to London arriving 1006 (or later) - £90.60
Lancaster to Euston Off Peak return allowing travel on any train in the afternoon - £90.60

Total £181.20, which saves £15 and gives more flexibility on the return

However a Euston to Haymarket SUPER OFFPEAK R 9F ticket seems to

1) Allow Break of journey (thus ending short in Manchester, Stockport, or other places, and starting short in the same places)
2) Allow departures from LONDON EUSTON after 09:05
3) Allow arrives into LONDON EUSTON after 10:05 (i.e. on the 10.06 arrival)

Total £134.20

Saving £50 over the Lancaster option with the same flexibility.

Am I missing something?

 

[onlinespotting]

Looked a bit closer into restrictions and see if there's a cheaper way of getting between the North West and London after my recent voyage further up north

Best I can get at the moment is throwing away the outbound of an off peak return (I gather I can't excess the outbound to stop short in Manchester or similar)

Normal ticket
Manchester-Euston SOS £156
Euston-Manchester SVH - £40.80

Total £196.80, and a restriction on the return to 1900 or later

Euston to Lancaster Off Peak return, allowing me to travel Manchester to London arriving 1006 (or later) - £90.60
Lancaster to Euston Off Peak return allowing travel on any train in the afternoon - £90.60

Total £181.20, which saves £15 and gives more flexibility on the return

However a Euston to Haymarket SUPER OFFPEAK R 9F ticket seems to

1) Allow Break of journey (thus ending short in Manchester, Stockport, or other places, and starting short in the same places)
2) Allow departures from LONDON EUSTON after 09:05
3) Allow arrives into LONDON EUSTON after 10:05 (i.e. on the 10.06 arrival)

Total £134.20

Saving £50 over the Lancaster option with the same flexibility.

Am I missing something?

I'm sure they would expect you to go direct via Crewe and Penrith without changing to get to Haymarket wouldn't they on VT

 

[OwlMan]

What times do you need to travel?

 

[miami]

Arrive London 1006 or later
Depart London at some point between 1630 and 2300

 

[sheff1]

I'm sure they would expect you to go direct via Crewe and Penrith without changing to get to Haymarket wouldn't they on VT

Why are you sure that 'they' (whoever they are) would do anything another than allow travel via a permitted route - map 'LM' in the case of a London to Haymarket ticket.

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm sure they would expect you to go direct via Crewe and Penrith without changing to get to Haymarket wouldn't they on VT

Doesn't matter what they expect as long as your on a permitted route you can go any way you want to get to the destination on your ticket. If break of journey is permitted then you can also start or finish your journey anywhere you like as long as it's on a permitted route.

Doesn't matter what you're expected to do with it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Am I missing something?

I don't think so! I quick look at the routeing guide shows that it's a mapped route and I can't find any negative 'easements' which would prevent it. Crazy but it seems to be fine.

 

[miami]

I'm sure they would expect you to go direct via Crewe and Penrith without changing to get to Haymarket wouldn't they on VT

The shortest route from Euston is actually via Stoke and Manchester at 405.25 miles (Euston-Rugby-Tamworth-Stoke-Stockport-Picadilly-OxfordRoad-Bolton-Chorley-Preston-Penrith-Lockerbie-Haymarket). At 405.5 miles goes via Willesden Jn, Gospel Oak, Finsbury Park, Stevenage, Doncaster, York, Berwick.

The route via Crewe is Rugby/Tamworth/Stafford/Crewe/Wilmslow/Stockport and above 410 miles.

Via Warrington is Crewe/Warrington/Preston 413.75 miles. From Kings Cross it's only 394 miles.

(Distances from http://www.bukitlawang.com/routes/routes.aspx and the Network Rail timetable)

Either way, in practice the ticket was questioned at the barrier but upon me telling them Haymarket was in Scotland, I was let through. No ticket check on the train of course.

 

[yorkie]

I'm sure they would expect you to go direct via Crewe and Penrith without changing to get to Haymarket wouldn't they on VT

They can expect whatever they want; the permitted routes are those defined in the Routeing Guide* and I would imagine via Manchester would be a regulated/protected route

(*in addition to direct trains and the shortest route)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Via Warrington is Crewe/Warrington/Preston 413.75 miles. From Kings Cross it's only 394 miles.

Not so. Euston-Edinburgh is 399.5 miles via Warrington, 398.25 to Haymarket.
9.5 miles further via Birmingham.
It's also not shorter via Manchester - it's 7.5 miles further via Hixon/Macc and 11 miles further via Wilmslow/Stockport.
Not that it matters, as your Haymarket ticket would be valid on any of these routes.

 

[miami]

First issue I've had this evening. No barrier at platform 5 at Euston, so boarded the train. Figured there may be entertainment as the guard (Ge***) said over the tannoy after departure that this was a peak time train (what's a peak time train?)

Shortly before the first stop, Crewe, he checks tickets. The partial list of excuses why my ticket wasn't valid:

This is a peak time train and an offpeak ticket isn't valid
I didn't have a reservation so the ticket wasn't valid
This ticket was sold by east coast so isn't valid on "Virgin" (it was sold by thetrainline as it happens)
It is valid, but only if I change at crewe
It's valid for break of journey, but only en route, Manchester isn't en route from London to Edinburgh
The only super off peak ticket valid on any Virgin train is one from huddersfield, and only because it says "Valid via Manchester"
I'd have to travel from Manchester on trans pennine express, and it isn't be valid on TPE trains

Finally he said that he would let me off and wouldn't stamp my ticket.

During all this he said he had no manual with fare restrictions in, and made two phone calls to "the ticket office". I did hear him on the phone explaining the restriction code (albeit restriction code F9 - not sure what nottingham would have to do with anything!)

A mildly entertaining 10 minutes, however my time isn't free. Should I send a bill for £15 plus an admin fee to Virgin?

If he had insisted that my ticket wasn't valid, what should I have done
1) Waited for the BTP and gone about my lawful business
2) Requested an unpaid fare notice
3) Just ignored him and carried on watching Dr Who?

 

[ainsworth74]

A mildly entertaining 10 minutes, however my time isn't free. Should I send a bill for £15 plus an admin fee to Virgin?

No, whilst it might be tempting I do not think sending a bill will be at all constructive. However, I would write in to Virgin letting them know about this incident and asking that they ensure that their staff are fully trained regarding ticket restrictions.

If he had insisted that my ticket wasn't valid, what should I have done
1) Waited for the BTP and gone about my lawful business
2) Requested an unpaid fare notice
3) Just ignored him and carried on watching Dr Who?

I would be wary about requesting a UPFN as that might make the guard think you're doing something wrong (why would a 'normal' passenger know enough about not having a valid ticket that they know what an UPFN is) silly but it is something to bear in mind.

 

[yorkie]

This is a peak time train and an offpeak ticket isn't valid

His level of knowledge may be good enough for Virgin, but he'd not get away with that on this forum It's nonsense; there is no such thing as a "peak time train".

Is your ticket on new style or old style stock? New style stock makes it very clear how to locate the restrictions

I didn't have a reservation so the ticket wasn't valid

Virgin don't have compulsory reservations

This ticket was sold by east coast so isn't valid on "Virgin" (it was sold by thetrainline as it happens)

Again, nonsense. There is now only one 'Virgin Trains' for marketing purposes and he really needs to look at Reason 10 here and, more importantly, should be familiar with NRCoC Condition 10. However, as we already know, Virgin don't require their Guards to be fully familiar with the NRCoC.

It is valid, but only if I change at crewe
It's valid for break of journey, but only en route, Manchester isn't en route from London to Edinburgh

Is he familiar with the existence of the Routeing Guide? If not, he should just admit this rather than make up his permitted routes.

The only super off peak ticket valid on any Virgin train is one from huddersfield, and only because it says "Valid via Manchester"

If I made up such rubbish in my job, I'd expect to be in a lot of trouble.

I'd have to travel from Manchester on trans pennine express, and it isn't be valid on TPE trains

Condition 10 of the NRCoC again.

Finally he said that he would let me off and wouldn't stamp my ticket.

Ah, the "let you off" excuse. I'd rather he just admitted he didn't know the rules and would try to find out! :roll:

A mildly entertaining 10 minutes, however my time isn't free. Should I send a bill for £15 plus an admin fee to Virgin?

You could try that. I'd start with £10 as that's their standard admin fee which they charge customers who waste their staff's time under certain circumstances.

If he had insisted that my ticket wasn't valid, what should I have done
1) Waited for the BTP and gone about my lawful business
2) Requested an unpaid fare notice
3) Just ignored him and carried on watching Dr Who?

Depends on what you want to achieve.

The best result may be to cough up, write to the Company at the highest level, and if suitable compensation and assurances of adequate training are not forthcoming, refer a breach of consumer law to the ORR and a breach of franchise commitments to the DfT. If Virgin treated it seriously the Guard could then regret making that decision.

Unfortunately there are a small minority of Guards who go round making up rules like this. There are not enough safeguards in place to prevent it. Not enough mystery shopping takes place, and there appears to be no requirement for Guards to be fully trained on the NRCoC.

This is the standard your Guard should have met (I've highlighted some relevant parts in bold, and the commitment in red which Virgin do not keep when it comes to ticketing matters)

http://www.virgintrainscareers.co.uk/VacancyInformation.aspx?VId=52669

Overview

An opportunity exists for this demanding position on our West Coast Trains operating out of Manchester Piccadilly Station. To fill such a challenging role you will need the ability to deal with all kinds of customers, ensuring that they are relaxed and enjoy travelling with us. You will also hold customer safety as our number one priority.

We are looking for an enthusiastic and forward-thinking approach. Full training will be provided.

Accountabilities

Applicants should possess an outgoing personality, fantastic customer service skills and high standards of personal presentation. You will provide a high standard of customer service and safety at all times and ensuring that we always provide a winning position for our business and develop a strong competitive advantage.

If only they ensured all their TMs met this job description. Yes, most do, but that is not good enough.

 

[sheff1]

The partial list of excuses why my ticket wasn't valid:
This is a peak time train and an offpeak ticket isn't valid
I didn't have a reservation so the ticket wasn't valid
This ticket was sold by east coast so isn't valid on "Virgin" (it was sold by thetrainline as it happens)
It is valid, but only if I change at crewe
It's valid for break of journey, but only en route, Manchester isn't en route from London to Edinburgh
The only super off peak ticket valid on any Virgin train is one from huddersfield, and only because it says "Valid via Manchester"
I'd have to travel from Manchester on trans pennine express, and it isn't be valid on TPE trains

He must have a very fertile imagination to come up with so many fake rules, so quickly. Perhaps he should consider a career writing fairytales.

 

[onlinespotting]

On an earlier post I said 'they' wouldn't like it. This is what I meant.

NB I'm aware that it is allowed, I just saw this coming!

 

[gray1404]

Please do complain to Virgin. This type of treatment of passengers and a guard making up the rules as he goes is not acceptable. It needs to be challenged.

 

[Wolfie]

Please do complain to Virgin. This type of treatment of passengers and a guard making up the rules as he goes is not acceptable. It needs to be challenged.

Indeed.. and the likely £50 worth of vouchers from customer services can go towards your next trip...

 

[paul1609]

This forum must be saving the TOCs millions in consultants fees. Why employ expensive consultants when you can just wait for a Geeks forum to reveal all the loop holes you need to close in the next edition of the routing guide?