Super off peak

[L17PVL]

hi all I have purchased a super off peak for myself and partner we are travelling from Liverpool to London on Saturday can we board any train after 10am as it’s weekend are there any restrictions Thanks in advance

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Key restrictions that I can see is that the Super Off Peak is a "route WMR & LNR ONLY" ticket, so can't be used with other train operators such as Avanti, there's no break of journey permitted on the outward journey except for train connection purposes (presumably at Birmingham New Street), and you can't arrive into Euston before 1300.

When are you travelling back or have you just got a Super Off Peak Single rather than a Super Off Peak Return? Might also be additional restrictions applicable if travelling on a Saturday, mid afternoon, between 1600 and 1900.

 

[Hadders]

Assuming you've purchased a Liverpool Lime Street to London Euston route WMT&LNR only Super Off Peak ticket then the restrictions are:

Purchase flexible walk-up fares for any British train journey

Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks. Full details of all British rail fares shown, with built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

Outward Travel & Return Travel​
Mondays-Saturdays (for Sundays and Bank Holidays, see 'Notes')​
Not valid for travel on trains timed to arrive London Terminals before 13:00. Not valid for travel on northbound services timed to depart any station before 10:30. Not valid for travel on services timed to depart the origin station on the ticket after 15:59 and before 19:01 in either direction. A connecting service can be used to complete a journey begun at a valid time.

Many super off peak tickets are unrestricted on Satursdays but on this route restrictions apply. Note also that this isn't a direct train, you have to change trains, normally at Crewe or Stafford but it is a very good value fare compared to a ticket allowing travel on Avanti.

 

[JBuchananGB]

Looking at a journey planner, it would seem you can take the 0933 Liverpool to Birmingham, then the 1136 Birmingham to London arriving 1359. The services one hour earlier would arrive in London just before 1300, contrary to the ticket restrictions.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

One other thing is you can't excess the ticket to travel on Avanti, they'd require you to buy a complete new ticket.

 

[JBuchananGB]

I looked at the small print in the restrictions and it has:

Not valid to arrive​

BIRMINGHAM NEW STREET​

1115–1119​

This might mean that the earliest train you can take from Liverpool is the 10.33 followed by the 12.36 from Birmingham. Maybe that's not a problem as you were thinking of travelling after 10am anyway.

 

[nw1]

Incredibly infuriating these restrictions which just seem to get worse and worse as the years go by.

Originally restrictions were typically "after 0930 / 1000 on Mon-Fri", then they were extended to the evening peak, and now the weekend.

SWR are another example, you can only get a cheap off-peak ticket at the weekends on many routes (such as local journeys in the Solent area) if you travel after 1200 or 1300 (I forget which).

Fare rises by stealth, as the "super off peak" seem to be equivalent in price to the old "off peak" tickets.

Before too long the "off peak" will be restricted to 1300-1500 on Tuesdays in January and February.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Incredibly infuriating these restrictions which just seem to get worse and worse as the years go by.

Originally restrictions were typically "after 0930 / 1000 on Mon-Fri", then they were extended to the evening peak, and now the weekend.

Fare rises by stealth, as the "super off peak" seem to be equivalent in price to the old "off peak" tickets.

Before too long the "off peak" will be restricted to 1300-1500 on Tuesdays in January and February.

Oh, behave.

What LNR did was split their old Off Peak in half due to serious overcrowding at certain times. What you ended up with was a Super Off Peak which is very heavily restricted and an Off Peak which is much less restricted, most notably it has no evening peak restrictions and so is a bit of a halfway house "business saver" type ticket.

On balance it's saved me money, certainly, though it is one where some win and some lose.

These are extremely deep-discount tickets for LNR services only. You want to look at the interavailable Off Peak if you want to see how restrictions have really developed over time.

 

[nw1]

Oh, behave.

What LNR did was split their old Off Peak in half due to serious overcrowding at certain times. What you ended up with was a Super Off Peak which is very heavily restricted and an Off Peak which is much less restricted, most notably it has no evening peak restrictions and so is a bit of a halfway house "business saver" type ticket.

On balance it's saved me money, certainly, though it is one where some win and some lose.

These are extremely deep-discount tickets for LNR services only. You want to look at the interavailable Off Peak if you want to see how restrictions have really developed over time.

OK, admittedly I was basing my comments on other TOCs (not LNWR) such as SWT/SWR where the "super off peak" seemed to have similar prices to the old "off peak", whereas the new "off peak", introduced about 10-15 (?) years ago or so (London arrivals 1000-1200) was hiked up.

Similarly the current confusingly named SWR "evening out return" (the one valid after 1200 or 1300 at the weekend) is similarly-priced to the old off-peak return - whereas you have to get an inflated-price ticket for the privilege of departing at 1155 on a lightly-loaded local stopping service at the weekend.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, some other TOCs are using it as a big money raising exercise. What LNR did was more like what LNER has (inherited from GNER) but adding Saturday restrictions, and was more done because the Crewe in particular was unusably overcrowded on mornings, particularly Saturday mornings, and was then rolled out to other routes which had similar but slightly lesser issues.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

A further question. Can the OP actually get back from Euston to Liverpool Lime Street, if travelling there and back on the same Saturday, without excessing up to an Off Peak Return (route WMR & LNR Only)?

 

[Bletchleyite]

A further question. Can the OP actually get back from Euston to Liverpool Lime Street, if travelling there and back on the same Saturday, without excessing up to an Off Peak Return (route WMR & LNR Only)?

Yes, but they'd only get a couple of hours in London (so it'd be fine for those who are just bashing 350s but not for a day out). While the planners don't implement it because they can't, which has been an issue for the 20 or so years these fares have existed in some form, the textual restriction contains the line "A connecting service can be used to complete a journey begun at a valid time", which has no practical effect* southbound, but northbound means you only need to consider the restrictions applying to Euston, thus you can take the closest Brum or Crewe before 1559 and change as needed, with the blanket restriction not applying to the connection. Guards and RPIs know about this and won't give you any hassle despite the fact you can't get an itinerary respecting this.

You can't however get back if you leave after restrictions end, as the last Crewe doesn't have a connection to Liverpool.

* Well, if you wanted to be finiticky you could argue it means you could travel any time you like southbound because the first train you use has no restrictions, so the journey was begun at a valid time, as the southbound restrictions for tickets to Euston describe only trains that end their journey there, but this, unlike what I outline above, is definitely not the intention, and I suspect it's one you'd find you needed to argue in Court if you refused to pay the excess. This is what you get when you try to get one restriction code doing too much.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Apr 2023 ==

I looked at the small print in the restrictions and it has:

This might mean that the earliest train you can take from Liverpool is the 10.33 followed by the 12.36 from Birmingham. Maybe that's not a problem as you were thinking of travelling after 10am anyway.

While the encoded restrictions would prevent an itinerary being issued breaching this, the restriction wording doesn't mention it, so it wouldn't actually apply. The only outbound morning peak restriction is on the time you arrive at Euston on a train that actually terminates there, though outbound break of journey is prohibited so you'd just have to sit around in New Street so I doubt they'd expect many to actually do it, and without Break of Journey being specifically defined any more there would be scope for the TOC to argue that travelling early on the first leg was that even though you haven't left the station premises, so it may be best not to if you want to avoid hassle from staff.

 

[Benjwri]

Well, if you wanted to be finiticky you could argue it means you could travel any time you like southbound because the first train you use has no restrictions, so the journey was begun at a valid time, as the southbound restrictions for tickets to Euston describe only trains that end their journey there, but this, unlike what I outline above, is definitely not the intention, and I suspect it's one you'd find you needed to argue in Court if you refused to pay the excess. This is what you get when you try to get one restriction code doing too much.

I actually don’t think it does in this case. It very specifically mentions:

the origin station on the ticket

On the return portion of the ticket the origin would be listed as Euston, so the restriction would apply from Euston.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I actually don’t think it does in this case. It very specifically mentions:

On the return portion of the ticket the origin would be listed as Euston, so the restriction would apply from Euston.

I'd suggest re-reading what I posted, specifically this:

* Well, if you wanted to be finiticky you could argue it means you could travel any time you like southbound because the first train you use has no restrictions, so the journey was begun at a valid time, as the southbound restrictions for tickets to Euston describe only trains that end their journey there, but this, unlike what I outline above, is definitely not the intention, and I suspect it's one you'd find you needed to argue in Court if you refused to pay the excess. This is what you get when you try to get one restriction code doing too much.

Last time I checked, Liverpool to London was southbound, i.e. the outward journey, whereas London to Liverpool was northbound

However as said I would not actually do it, as it's clear what the restriction is meant to mean, which is:

1. You can go from Liverpool to London in the morning using any combination of WMT trains* provided the one you use that goes to Euston itself doesn't arrive at Euston before the specified time and you don't break your journey (definition of that for debate).

2. You can go from London to Liverpool in the evening provided the WMT train you take from Euston doesn't depart between the specified times, but then you can change as desired onto whatever WMT trains you like, including as soon as Harrow and Wealdstone if you really want.

(I've ignored the evening restriction southbound and the morning one northbound because it isn't applicable to the OP, and I'll not address starting short because it has all manner of complexities involving whether staff believe you did or not and exactly how to interpret the restrictions when you do)

Thus if you did use that argument you would likely need to argue it in Court.

* I was going to say "on a Permitted Route", but I don't think, unless you went for a jolly round the West Midlands or a RRB ride to Bedford and back on the side, there's any way to *not* be on a Permitted Route for that journey on WMT trains only.

 

[setdown]

Remember on a Saturday you can also use the 1846 from Euston on a super off-peak ticket:

On Saturdays customers travelling to stations between Nuneaton and Crewe can use the 1846 train from London

You'll be travelling to Stafford or Crewe on that train from London, so the easement applies. At least it's been fine when I've used it!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Remember on a Saturday you can also use the 1846 from Euston on a super off-peak ticket:

You'll be travelling to Stafford or Crewe on that train from London, so the easement applies. At least it's been fine when I've used it!

Where's that? I can't see it in restriction LF as applies to the ticket under discussion. Though it does strike me that I have seen it before somewhere.

Perhaps it was on the earlier version when the 1846 was the last train of the day. There's now one much later but you can't get to Liverpool without the involvement of a taxi.

 

[Benjwri]

Perhaps it was on the earlier version when the 1846 was the last train of the day. There's now one much later but you can't get to Liverpool without the involvement of a taxi.

It was present till NFM32, after that the restriction was changed to similar to its current state.

 

[gray1404]

I looked at the small print in the restrictions and it has:

This might mean that the earliest train you can take from Liverpool is the 10.33 followed by the 12.36 from Birmingham. Maybe that's not a problem as you were thinking of travelling after 10am anyway.

This is part of the unpublished electronic restrictions of the ticket, which is implemented by journey planners, and does not form part of the published restrictions.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Perhaps @L17PVL (who's not been back on here since posting earlier this morning) could advise us of their actual intended itinerary, both outward from Liverpool Lime Street (travelling at or after 10:00 on a Saturday) and return (if any) from London Euston, and we could advise whether a Super Off Peak Single/Return ticket that they've already purchased is actually valid without any need for an excess.

 

[route101]

What is the point of a Super Off Peak ticket if the times are restrictive?

 

[ThameslinkUser]

What's the point of off-peak? It's cheaper to encourage use on (supposedly) quieter trains in a pre-pandemic mind

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What is the point of a Super Off Peak ticket if the times are restrictive?

Headline low prices that looks good in publicity material or on price comparison sites?

Liverpool Lime Street -> London Euston (from £41 rtn - terms and conditions apply).