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Super Off Peak on Southern

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James Wake

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Hi all,
On my regular 1740 Clapham to Crawley tonight the conductor said super off peak tickets were not valid, however wasn't there a case a little while ago on here about the fact that a Poole to East Croydon was valid starting South, Southerns conductors haven't been great lately, like on Monday on this train the conductor misunderstood about why we were 25 mins late, he said congestion, signaller routed us via Redhill by mistake and we got stuck behind slow trains. I still think c2c are better for reliability and a better seat chance as there is no first class.
 
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yorkie

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Hi all,
On my regular 1740 Clapham to Crawley tonight the conductor said super off peak tickets were not valid.
Super Off Peak tickets are valid on the 1740 Clapham to Crawley unless stated otherwise in the restriction code, so such a statement is meaningless and a cause of potential confusion. I'd write to the Company regarding this.
 

James Wake

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Super Off Peak tickets are valid on the 1740 Clapham to Crawley unless stated otherwise in the restriction code, so such a statement is meaningless and a cause of potential confusion. I'd write to the Company regarding this.

Apologies, perhaps the conductor was misunderstood, anyway tonight the conductor has managed to check the Southampton portion by Crawley, normally they stay down the other end, nice work to today's conductor, but not the announcement.
 

SickyNicky

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Super Off Peak tickets are valid on the 1740 Clapham to Crawley unless stated otherwise in the restriction code, so such a statement is meaningless and a cause of potential confusion. I'd write to the Company regarding this.

Agreed. There are many examples of Super Off Peak tickets* that are valid on EVERY train on that line, so any annoucement to the contrary is very misleading.

* for example, Hereford to Crawley, a ticket that I have myself on a number of occasions with no problems, even at the unmanned Crawley down gate barriers where you have to show your ticket to a camera to get access.
 

LexyBoy

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This is quite common on FGW in the morning too, despite many (Super) Off Peak tickets being valid between Didcot/Reading & London.
 

NSEFAN

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Presumably these announcements are aimed at people with super off peak tickets to/from London terminals, which probably are restricted quite heavily and also quite common?
 

Hadders

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VTEC make similar misleading announcements in the evening peak at Kings Cross. I've heard them say 'super off peak and off peak tickets are not valid on this train and you will be required to purchase a new ticket at the full price...'

Most misleading, especially when the train stops at Stevenage.
 

yorkie

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Presumably these announcements are aimed at people with super off peak tickets to/from London terminals, which probably are restricted quite heavily and also quite common?
Do you have some examples?

Edit: okay I found some, by putting London as a destination (not origin), and these seem to be Travelcards, so would be valid out of Clapham Junction on this train as far as East Croydon.

So an announcement stating "Some Super Off Peak tickets are not valid on this train once we depart East Croydon" would be far more accurate than the alleged misleading wording that was used.
 

bb21

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To be fair, I think saying "some" tickets would not be valid, while accurate, is worse than saying nothing, if not listing which tickets the "some" refers to, as it tells no one any useful information.
 

yorkie

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We had this discussion before, and suffice to say no consensus was reached!
 

FenMan

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Being a good chap, a few years ago I detrained from a Paddington evening peak departure after the guard announced that off peak tickets were not valid on the service. I returned home evenutally via a ThamesTurbo service where the onboard conditions were more akin to the Kolkata Metro.

This forum has taught me a lot, including how to find out if that off peak ticket was valid for that train. It was.
 

JB_B

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Hi all,
On my regular 1740 Clapham to Crawley tonight the conductor said super off peak tickets were not valid, ...

Obviously that announcement isn't wholly accurate but I can easily imagine that in the real world it might be the least bad option available - any suggestions for something better? ( Saying nothing at all is hardly going to be great.)

Years ago, when I used to commute off-peak into Paddington (we're going back to Network SouthEast times), the issuing office would use a rubber stamp to clearly mark the off peak tickets with the evening restrictions coming back - does that happen anywhere now?

(I know that restrictions in/out of Paddington have grown more complex in the intervening years - but maybe for something simple like Southern's PB restriction it should be doable?)
 

James Wake

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The same conductor is crewing it again tonight and made the announcement at exactly the same time, I'll contact Southern at some point, also is a zone Day Lewes to London travelcard valid for a break of journey at Brighton as Southern's Twitter team think it is not, I know seasons are valid that way.
 

JB_B

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... also is a zone Day Lewes to London travelcard valid for a break of journey at Brighton as Southern's Twitter team think it is not, I know seasons are valid that way.

Not sure why'd they'd say that - BOJ appears OK on off-peak (C0) and super offpeak (PB) -can you quote their tweet?
 

talldave

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The same conductor is crewing it again tonight and made the announcement at exactly the same time, I'll contact Southern at some point, also is a zone Day Lewes to London travelcard valid for a break of journey at Brighton as Southern's Twitter team think it is not, I know seasons are valid that way.

I never cease to be amazed how utterly incompetent Southern are. I mean, if the experts on here can look it up, why can't the muppets at Southern? I suspect it's the usual reason that they can't be a***ed, so just make it up like they always do.
 

James Wake

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Not sure why'd they'd say that - BOJ appears OK on off-peak (C0) and super offpeak (PB) -can you quote their tweet?

No I can't but it was around 3 hours ago, Huw said you will need to buy a Lewes to Brighton ticket.
 

sarahj

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I never cease to be amazed how utterly incompetent Southern are. I mean, if the experts on here can look it up, why can't the muppets at Southern? I suspect it's the usual reason that they can't be a***ed, so just make it up like they always do.

Dead simple, 95%+ of the super off peak tickets we see are southern issued ones for trips within the southern zone. When you do find them on trains that have departed London between 16.15 and 19.15 south of zone 6, you always get one who goes 'well no-one told me!!'. So, you either make no announcement, or one that's super complex, and even then someone will claim it does not apply to them.

eg:

Peak train into London.
'please note that off peak tickets are not valid on this train unless they are held for a destination beyond london, eg manchester.'
Goes through train:
Finds punter with off peak ticket.
Did you not hear what I said.
'Yes, but i'm going to Finsbury Park, thats beyond London' :roll:

So, yes, it many not apply to about 1 ticket out off 400+ super off peak that we see every day, but is it any reason to write and moan?
 

Starmill

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So, yes, it many not apply to about 1 ticket out off 400+ super off peak that we see every day, but is it any reason to write and moan?

It isn't a reason to moan at the conductor, who was just trying to do his job the way he's been told.

It is however a reason to moan at Southern / wider Industry management, who have made the restrictions so complex that they can't be summed up in a clear and helpful announcement so that 'everyone knows where they stand' and nobody would be misled or confused about when their ticket is or isn't valid.
 

JB_B

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Dead simple, 95%+ of the super off peak tickets we see are southern issued ones for trips within the southern zone. When you do find them on trains that have departed London between 16.15 and 19.15 south of zone 6, you always get one who goes 'well no-one told me!!'. So, you either make no announcement, or one that's super complex, and even then someone will claim it does not apply to them.

Fully agree with that - as per my earlier post there's no way you could cover every possible restriction in an announcement.

(However I read talldave as criticising the potentially iffy info re BoJ - not the announcement about restrictions - could be wrong, though).
 

gray1404

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I think provided that when a customer has the ticket checked the conductor is willing to look up the restrictions on the ticket machine program that apply to that individual tickets, plus the customer is not been told that ticket is invalid when it is in fact valid, then there should not be any problems. Yes the railway industry has made the ticketing system complex in terms of which route you are travelling on and which train set fare, however they should therefore equip the staff with the facility to be able to ascertain this information so that the customer is not disadvantaged in any way.
 

CyrusWuff

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In an ideal world, ticket checking staff would be able to swipe a ticket through a reader and the machine would tell them if it was valid on that train or not.

In the real world, the one time you'd need to use that function would be when you were in the middle of Totley Tunnel so have no GPS and no network connection...
 

sarahj

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There is a way round to break a journey at Brighton and in many years have never seen anyone refused through the barriers.
 

jkdd77

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The Southern website claims, in a well-hidden section not made available or referenced at the point of purchase, that BoJ is forbidden on both legs of Super Off-Peak tickets: https://www.southernrailway.com/tickets-and-fares/ticket-types/super-off-peak-tickets/
but the T & Cs available at the point of purchase effectively state that it is permitted, as does the NRE website, supposedly the 'definitive source of information'. To be more accurate, both the T & Cs and the NRE website state:
Outward:
A break of journey is permitted on the outward portion of an Super Off-Peak Day Return unless otherwise indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket's Restriction Code.
Return:
A break of journey is permitted on the return portion of an Super Off-Peak Day Return unless otherwise indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket's Restriction Code.
Since no such restriction exists in restriction code PB, it is permitted on both legs: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/PB).

(There is a prohibition on BoJ listed in brfares.com for this type of Super Off Peak Day Return (PDR), but this is not an official source of information and does not form part of the contract for travel).

It is easy for a 'normal' passenger acting in good faith to buy such a ticket from the Southern booking engine, without having seen or been made aware of the supposed prohibition, and to reasonably believe based on the information at the point of purchase that it is permitted, such that they then choose to enter into the contract for travel on the basis that it is declared to be permitted.

Similiar considerations apply to VTEC's half-price SSS, where the T & Cs purporting to forbid BoJ are well hidden on their website, and the T & Cs available at the point of purchase state that it is permitted unless forbidden by the restriction code, and, again, no such restriction exists.

As a further example, the published T & Cs on the SWT website relating to their promotional £20 ticket are silent on BoJ save to note that the NRCoC applies, and TVMs selling this ticket make no mention of any restriction; however, the information box at the point of online purchase claims that it is prohibited.

The NRCoC states:
[extract from 'Your Rights']
You can:
• Start, break or resume your journey using trains on which your ticket is valid unless you are told about particular restrictions that apply to the use of your ticket.
[extract from Condition 16]
However, these rights may not apply to
some types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited, in which case the Ticket Seller must make this clear when you buy your ticket.

It follows that conflicting or hidden information, not easily accessible at the point of purchase, cannot be said to satisfy the NRCoC requirement that the restrictions be "made clear", and cannot be said to form part of the contract for travel; hence the contract for travel is subject to the 'default' rule for flexible tickets in the NRCoC that BoJ is permitted.
 

talldave

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Fully agree with that - as per my earlier post there's no way you could cover every possible restriction in an announcement.

(However I read talldave as criticising the potentially iffy info re BoJ - not the announcement about restrictions - could be wrong, though).

Indeed I was :)
 

JB_B

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The Southern website claims, in a well-hidden section not made available or referenced at the point of purchase, that BoJ is forbidden on both legs of Super Off-Peak tickets: https://www.southernrailway.com/tickets-and-fares/ticket-types/super-off-peak-tickets/

Thanks for pointing that out jkdd77 - I'd not seen that before.
The text reads...

"Break of journey

When travelling with Southern on Super Off-Peak tickets, a Break of Journey is not permitted on outward or return journeys, however it is excepted on a Southern Super Off-Peak Travelcard ticket. A ‘Break of Journey’ means exiting and re-entering an intermediate station to continue your journey on the same day after a break. Break of journey also may not be permitted when travelling with other Train Operators."


What is this bit "however [BoJ] is excepted(?) on a Southern Super Off-Peak Travelcard ticket" trying to say?

Does it mean anything more than the bleedin' obvious - ie BoJ within the TC Area?

I'm pretty sure that ticket itself only carries the restriction code (which of course doesn't help). Next time I'll check whether the ticket vending machines carry any information on the BoJ 'restriction'.
 

infobleep

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Thanks for pointing that out jkdd77 - I'd not seen that before.
The text reads...

"Break of journey

When travelling with Southern on Super Off-Peak tickets, a Break of Journey is not permitted on outward or return journeys, however it is excepted on a Southern Super Off-Peak Travelcard ticket. A ‘Break of Journey’ means exiting and re-entering an intermediate station to continue your journey on the same day after a break. Break of journey also may not be permitted when travelling with other Train Operators."


What is this bit "however [BoJ] is excepted(?) on a Southern Super Off-Peak Travelcard ticket" trying to say?

Does it mean anything more than the bleedin' obvious - ie BoJ within the TC Area?

I'm pretty sure that ticket itself only carries the restriction code (which of course doesn't help). Next time I'll check whether the ticket vending machines carry any information on the BoJ 'restriction'.
Perhaps they expect you to break your journey on a travel card. At least it doesn't say must, otherwise you might be forced to break your journey using a travel card.
 

sarahj

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It was not tall dave I was referring to, but the original 5-6 posts of this thread.

Plus it was not the conductor that mentioned break of journey, it was a discussion a member had with our twitter team.

Since those in head office think that more announcements is the answer to most things*, perhaps they will come up with a nice long auto one that starts somewhere around Norbury and lists all the exclusions for super off peak tickets that are allowed.

Real world: person with headphones on ' I never heard it' :roll:

* alas, true. Passenger jumps off train late, bashes member of staff. Conclusion, 'more announcements should be made'.
 

JB_B

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It was not tall dave I was referring to, but the original 5-6 posts of this thread.


Yes - it's just that your first post quoted talldave (who was talking about the twitter BoJ advice) so I thought it might be worth clarifying.

Plus it was not the conductor that mentioned break of journey, it was a discussion a member had with our twitter team.

Yes - I don't think anyone has suggested otherwise.


Completely with you on your other comments.
 

talldave

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......
What is this bit "however [BoJ] is excepted(?) on a Southern Super Off-Peak Travelcard ticket" trying to say?

Does it mean anything more than the bleedin' obvious - ie BoJ within the TC Area?

I'm pretty sure that ticket itself only carries the restriction code (which of course doesn't help). Next time I'll check whether the ticket vending machines carry any information on the BoJ 'restriction'.

I thought my English was quite good but it's a curious turn of phrase. I guess they mean not allowed except for a Southern S O P T...? And by that I assume they're meaning a Southern-only ticket? Because the rest of the text appears to apply to any TOC's tickets?
 
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Starmill

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Since those in head office think that more announcements is the answer to most things*, perhaps they will come up with a nice long auto one that starts somewhere around Norbury and lists all the exclusions for super off peak tickets that are allowed.

Thameslink have a lovely one that literally says 'If you have an Oyster, you must alight here [East Croydon] or you may be charged a Penalty Fare.'
:lol: :lol: :lol:
 
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