Sunday working - can of worms

[A-driver]

It seems to me that the Railway (alongside various other forms of employment; healthcare; gas, electricity, water other examples) is fundamentally a seven-day industry.

It seems to me that it's an historic concept that, in any such industry, Sundays are "special". One cannot even treat it like this on religious grounds either; as we become multi-cultural (whether we agree with that or not) the day of special religious significance varies between faiths - and hence between employees.

It is entirely right and proper that people entering such industries should do so in the acknowledgement that they are entering a seven-day business, and that they will be expected to work in a pattern that includes all seven days.

It seems to me that this seven-day working concept was not always thought of as such and that Sundays were seen as "overtime".

One cannot easily change the terms and conditions of people who entered employment under older terms. But it seems entirely appropriate that new incumbents will be under a seven-day contract. It's equal treatment to the extent that each person is employed according to the contract terms applicable, and to which they agreed, when they joined.

Indeed, the sooner healthcare workers (including GPs and surgeons) are recruited under a seven day contract (and earlier recruits either agree to new terms, or retire) the sooner we will have a better health service, all week round. Likewise railway employees.

Persons not wishing to join a seven-day industry should not do so; they should choose work elsewhere.

I don't disagree but it's not the unions/workers blocking Sunday working. Most TOCs don't want it as relying on Sunday overtime is far cheaper than recruiting enough drivers to cover a 7 day service. Infant the union push for Sundays inside as it means more jobs are created.

 

[pt_mad]

But in keeping the same terms and conditions, the Union make new workers feel like a second class worker!
Why can't people accept that things change? Yes, even for the bad, but that's life - you still have a job! What Union members seem to be blind to is the fact if the company makes conditions too bad then moral will fall significantly, dropping share prices, visions, values and all that stuff. Companies won't change as much as the Union suggest they will. Many other industries work fine with minimal Union input.

While I agree the Union does some good, I feel they do much more bad than good.

I've said it many times before, I don't understand what obsession this country has when it comes to Sunday working. Sunday should simply be another day of the week to everyone apart from those of particular religions.
It's only because our country has traditionally been a "Christian" country that Sundays have been the "day of rest". If you aren't part of that religion, why should it affect you working on a Sunday?

Exactly and quite a lot of those longer serving employees are refusing Sundays simply because they can. They are the ones who don't accept the 7 day industry etc.

Working SOME Sundays is perfectly fine but newer employees shouldn't have to do more than their fair share simply because some longer serving employees refuse to do any.

 

[GB]

I wonder if you all would be so vocal if the shoe was on the other foot?

What Union members seem to be blind to is the fact if the company makes conditions too bad then moral will fall significantly, dropping share prices, visions, values and all that stuff.

...and what do you think will happen to moral when the company decides to impose Sunday working on those that currently do not have it as part of their contract of employment?

You knew the conditions before you signed up just as I knew when I signed up I wouldn't have travel entitlement which is another thing people complain about...live with it.

Oh, and Sundays are inside the working week with my lot.

 

[Legzr1]

I wonder if you all would be so vocal if the shoe was on the other foot?

I think we all know the answer to that.

This looks like some are suggesting yet another race to the bottom.:roll:

 

[455driver]

I think we all know the answer to that.

This looks like some are suggesting yet another race to the bottom.:roll:

Only another 5 months until the "why are there no trains on Christmas day, I think its disgusting that those lazy over-paid drivers want to spend time with their family when I want to shopping" thread comes out to play!

signed
an (apparently) over-paid driver.

 

[met331]

As usual people who dont work in the industry preaching to those that do.
I'll break it down so that the more challenged of you get it.
When i joined the railway my contract stated that i wasnt obliged to work on the sabbath. However my company would like me too but it doesnt want to pay me any extra for doing it. Now as im not required to be at work i reserve my right as a human being ( yes we railway employees are human honest.) to say no. If at a point in time my company ( god bless them!!) decide to put an offer forward that the majority of my collegues and I accept then Sundays will become part of my working week.
Until then they wont and i will choose if and when i go to work on top of my 35 hour round the clock, socially awkward, stressfull rules obsessed, blame culture oriented, critised by know alls that actually dont know anything, Driving job that i love. I worked damn hard to get here and im not going to apologize for fighting for my rights.

 

[Fred26]

I've worked under three phases of Sunday working since joining the railway in 2004.
At the first, Sundays were rostered, but we were free to give them up if we didn't want them. We had to find cover for them ourselves but that wasn't difficult since they paid very well when compared to our basic wage. Staff rarely surrended their Sundays.
There wasn't a great deal of difference in my next job. Sundays were again rostered overtime and we could give them up if we found cover. However, we'd been restructured so financially there was less to gain. As a result they were harder to get rid of and so staff rarely gave them up, but for a different reason.
In my current role Sundays are part of the working week and they pay the basic wage, though we are paid an allowance for them. Giving them up means applying for leave and is up to the roster clerk to authorise and cover. There's usually plenty of people willing to work Sundays, but the financial rewards aren't as (relatively) high as the other two.

On the whole I like Sundays being part of the working week and I wouldn't be keen to go back the other way. Not that it matters, because having changed once, management certainly have no intention of spending the money to change back.

 

[Greenback]

I don't disagree but it's not the unions/workers blocking Sunday working. Most TOCs don't want it as relying on Sunday overtime is far cheaper than recruiting enough drivers to cover a 7 day service. Infant the union push for Sundays inside as it means more jobs are created.

This is correct. It has been an Aslef objective for many years to get Sundays inside the working week. As A-driver says, all the TOC's can see is the greater costs in recruiting, training and paying for additional staff as comapred to the relative ease and economy of paying a smaller pool of staff a bit extra to work instead.

And as per our capitalist system, in such a situation market forces and the laws of supply and demand will determine how much additional money it will take to ensure there are enough staff to operate the services on a Sunday.

Despite the possibility of occasional 'Barbecue Sundays' in times of dispute, it is worth the TOC's while to operate in this way.

Exactly and quite a lot of those longer serving employees are refusing Sundays simply because they can. They are the ones who don't accept the 7 day industry etc.

Not quite correct I'm afraid. There ar eplenty of longer serving employees who work Sundays, and prefer to work Sundays.

Even those who don't want to work on Sundays realise the 7 day nature of the job, but are quite entitled to choose not to work on one of those days as their contract allows it. I would expect many of them would actually prefer to have Sundays inside the working week, providing the salaries paid reflected this and, of course, they were compensated as well with an additional rest day at some other time. I used to enjoy midweek days off when the shops were quieter! But of course, it wouldn't suit everyone all the time.

Working SOME Sundays is perfectly fine but newer employees shouldn't have to do more than their fair share simply because some longer serving employees refuse to do any.

If you feel really strongly about it, you could fund a legal challenge to try and ensure this notion of fairness is enforced. Perhaps you could argue that it is indirectly discrimination by age?

However, I am doubtful of any real chance of success, and it could end up being an expensive and long drawn out process. I doubt you would end up winning any popularity contests either!

Let's by honest here. New employees have traditionally had to endure the worst shifts, the dirtiest jobs and goodness knows what else in all manner of industries and professions!

Only another 5 months until the "why are there no trains on Christmas day, I think its disgusting that those lazy over-paid drivers want to spend time with their family when I want to shopping" thread comes out to play!

signed
an (apparently) over-paid driver.

Yes, the threads normally start in November! I've given up contributing now, as it's the same old same old arguments on both sides every year!

Just to clarify, though, I am in favour of no Christmas Day or Boxing Day - though I accpet there is a stronger argument for a limited service on Boxing Day on a commercial basis only.

Still we don't want to start this argument again in June do we?!!!

I've worked under three phases of Sunday working since joining the railway in 2004.
At the first, Sundays were rostered, but we were free to give them up if we didn't want them. We had to find cover for them ourselves but that wasn't difficult since they paid very well when compared to our basic wage. Staff rarely surrended their Sundays.
There wasn't a great deal of difference in my next job. Sundays were again rostered overtime and we could give them up if we found cover. However, we'd been restructured so financially there was less to gain. As a result they were harder to get rid of and so staff rarely gave them up, but for a different reason.
In my current role Sundays are part of the working week and they pay the basic wage, though we are paid an allowance for them. Giving them up means applying for leave and is up to the roster clerk to authorise and cover. There's usually plenty of people willing to work Sundays, but the financial rewards aren't as (relatively) high as the other two.

On the whole I like Sundays being part of the working week and I wouldn't be keen to go back the other way. Not that it matters, because having changed once, management certainly have no intention of spending the money to change back.

Nice post, Fred26. You have set out the different ways Sunday working is set up in the industry and the effects they have on the staff.

When I was on the railway, I couldn't afford not to work every other Sunday (and more if I could get it) as the basic wage was so poor and the overtime rate so high that it really, really helped to make ends meet and enjoy an occasional treat.

On one hand that was a great way to ensure Sunday rotas were easily covered, but I think I agree with you (and Aslef) that it is far preferable to pay a better wage and have Sundays in the working week.

That would also achieve the fairness that pt_mad is seeking, but it not the staff or the unions that are being intransigent in this respect, it is the employers.

 

[AlexS]

It's not a seven day contract though. You get stuck working the Sunday, which is outside your contracted hours, in addition to your normal working week, through a custom and practice agreement. You don't get another day off in the week in lieu or anything.

My contract for example is to work 35 hours per week. If I work my booked Sunday, as my local agreement says I should, despite it being strictly outside my working week, I end up working 44.5 hours and only get one day off that week.

If you're stuck with a custom and practice agreement, rather than a contractual one, that is only applied selectively, I can understand why you're annoyed.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

<Snip>

Indeed, the sooner healthcare workers (including GPs and surgeons) are recruited under a seven day contract (and earlier recruits either agree to new terms, or retire) the sooner we will have a better health service, all week round. Likewise railway employees.

Persons not wishing to join a seven-day industry should not do so; they should choose work elsewhere.

only GPs and GDPs are NOT on 24/7 contracts in the NHS , the main issue at present with expanding all NHS services to 24/7 is the lead time to staff them and the funding to expand cover.

lead time is a significant issue for health care -

assuming there are placements and mentors and lecture / theory teaching space and lecturers it takes a minimum of 3 years to produce 'new' ODPs or paramedics and 4 to produce new Nurses, Midwives, Physios, OTs ... this excludes any requirement to develop post basic competencies

it will take 6 or 7 years to produce new foundation doctors and a further 5 years before they are moderately useful plus a further 4 years before they have a CCT and can take up either Staff / Associate Specialist or Consultant posts

 

[Flamingo]

The TOC I work for, my colleagues are contracted to work a 35 hour week (averaged over a "link" of X number of weeks) with a minimum of two days off in every week. I believe this last condition is normal in most jobs in the UK outside HMF, anybody who is not self-employed and is contracted to work six or more days please feel free to tell me what industry you work in. One of the peculiarities of the railway is that one of the two days off is always Sunday.

The TOC I work for have decided that is all I am obliged to work, and have given me a contract of employment stating that.

Anything I or my colleagues do outside of the terms of that contract is by choice - my employer has given me and my colleagues that choice.

If my employer wishes to alter that contract, there are set legal mechanisms that they can use to alter that contract with or without the employees agreement, they have been used by other employers I have had in the past to alter shift patterns, as that is, in effect, all they will be doing.

However, if Sunday is made an "ordinary" day, my colleagues and I will then need another day off somewhere else in the week, which is not impossible, but at some stage, will mean TOC's having to employ and train a significant number of new staff. This has a large financial implication, which the TOC's are afraid of.

So, TOC's will not change the current system willingly, but are happy to paint any disruption caused by it as intransigent unions sticking to outmoded working practices.

 

[youngboy]

Ok here goes at the risk of opening a can of worms! Basically I am interested in finding out people's opinions and views on the Sunday working situation.

I am not sure whether this is an industry wide thing or just confined to my toc, but basically at my toc anyone employed prior to x month/year does not have to work any Sundays full stop (unless they choose to).
Anyone taken on after x month/year must work minimum amount of Sundays, and on rostered this is usually 2 in 3. Pretty harsh considering this is roughly 35 a year while others don't do any.

As I say slight can of worms and I understand some of the longer serving employees may want to keep their rights but what happened to equal rights???

I believe firmly in equal rights mate, but when there's 3000 applicants for 10 trainee jobs I also believe you would be better biting the bullet and serving your time rather than cause any waves.
Company I worked for issued EVERY employee from shower room janitor to director with a contract which said we were all under common terms and conditions. I took this to mean (we all did) we were all the same, when I found out the office staff could go off site for lunch daily, and we weren't allowed off site whatsoever from clocking in to clocking off it didn't seem fair, then I found out the same office staff all worked their lunch hour and as such finished early on friday's. How did that work ???
Anyway we had the discussion and were told that we were all under common terms and conditions, only some people had different ones, and if we didn't like it we knew where the door was. Not very nice, but a jobs a job and there's thousands waiting to fill yours.:roll:

 

[455driver]

From December SWT drivers will be on a 35 hour 4 day week so will have 3 days off every week.
Sundays are already part of the working week so Sunday is just like every other day of the week and paid at normal/flat rate.

The easy answer is if you are not happy with the days or hours you will have to work then dont take the job, quite simple really, I dont care what everyone else is working because I work for me and as long as I am happy with my lot then that is all I care about.

Do I like working Sundays? No I dont but my contract says I have to work them (which I knew when I signed it) so its tough I just have to get on with it.

 

[pt_mad]

It's not a seven day contract though. You get stuck working the Sunday, which is outside your contracted hours, in addition to your normal working week, through a custom and practice agreement. You don't get another day off in the week in lieu or anything.

My contract for example is to work 35 hours per week. If I work my booked Sunday, as my local agreement says I should, despite it being strictly outside my working week, I end up working 44.5 hours and only get one day off that week.

If you're stuck with a custom and practice agreement, rather than a contractual one, that is only applied selectively, I can understand why you're annoyed.

Pretty similar setup to that I am describing.

 

[83G/84D]

Digressing from traincrews and station staff to signalling staff the situation is more or less as follows.
Resident staff (ie those that only work at one location) have rostered Sundays and if they want time off on one of their rostered Sundays they must arrange cover (normally the roster clerk will assist) .
The cover must be arranged according to something called the National Rostering Principles which specify who must be asked to cover and in what order. If all efforts to cover the Sunday are unsuccessful the resident staff member is obliged to work.

Relief staff generally have no rostered Sunday duties and can pick up any turns resident staff do not want, if they so wish to work. All this must comply with the aforementioned NRP's and Hidden (with regard to rest periods).

This is what I believe to be the basic explanation of the way it works on NR, some variations to this may occur.

 

[AlexS]

Pretty similar setup to that I am describing.

The difference in my case is that everyone from the old hands to the newest entrants are in the same boat with their booked Sundays, so the element of fairness is there - the old hands haven't sold the new staff down the street as it were. That said we have a reasonable balance of old and new staff, ranging from 40-50 years of service to less than one and all points in between, across the 16 or so staff in the two relevant grades (station supervisor and dispatcher, the two safety critical grades can cover each other's turns with relevant training).

I work 1 in 3 Sundays, and will generally help colleagues lose theirs/the company cover ones they need filling if necessary. I think it's a decent way to do it, although it's nice to just have the second day off in a week from time to time.