Sunday trading laws discussion

[35B]

Sunday trading laws should be removed so that Saturday isn't the ONLY day where weekday workers have to do everything not possible during the week. I also think it's safe to say Sunday is not a religious day anymore (especially as a nation). If you want to treat it like a day of rest or leisure, that's your choice, but for most it could be more useful IMO.

That's fine - but where then is the protection of a day of rest for all workers? For all its flaws, the Sunday trading laws protect that residual idea of a day off, even if the specifically Christian* nature is of questionable relevance to many.

* - Just to note that other religions have other holy days in the week, Fridays (Islam) and Saturdays (Judaism) being the most obvious.

 

[Metrolink]

That's fine - but where then is the protection of a day of rest for all workers? For all its flaws, the Sunday trading laws protect that residual idea of a day off, even if the specifically Christian* nature is of questionable relevance to many.

* - Just to note that other religions have other holy days in the week, Fridays (Islam) and Saturdays (Judaism) being the most obvious.

I think there is a strong argument that the residual idea of a day off doesn’t exist anymore and that some people don’t work a 9-5 job now. Also by removing Sundays as the ‘day off’ it doesn’t affect the large majority of the working population, for example you wouldn’t have an office open on a Sunday if it was changed, similar to how a conventional office remains closed on a Saturday.

Those stores in retail that would be open (or for longer) would either have their staff work more hours or hire new staff, particularly teenagers where it’s difficult to find a job and wouldn’t care whether they work on Sundays.

 

[Richardr]

Can I ask how they did the research to establish that being open longer would generate extra business and not just shift it? And what types of retailers were/are they?

The thinking with supermarkets is perhaps a lot different to, say, a DIY store that loses sales if it can't be open extra early on a Sunday when someone wants to do some home improvement work - but opening earlier would mean losing sales later on.

Or maybe click and collect sales go down because there aren't enough slots.

I'm genuinely interested.

In broad terms of course people will eat roughly the same as they do today.

However, at least one consideration has to be convenience for the consumer, not just for the retailer. In the days when supermarkets weren't open Sundays, past mid afternoon on a Saturday, past 5pm weekdays bar one evening of late night opening, and closed for a midweek day or half day, the world was very different. In addition to virtually all adults working rather than just half as examples there are plenty of sporting events on a Sunday, pubs are open on Sunday afternoons, and those two examples reflect many other leisure activities on a Sunday that never used to be the case.

Now, the likes of Deliveroo, Just Eat, Uber Eat, plus the likes of Ocado and Amazon delivering food show that there are more convenient alternatives, and the likes of Tesco and Sainsbury opening smaller shops just under the regulation size and as a result opening much longer hours on a Sunday also shows a demand there. Tesco have over 2,000 Tesco Express shops, Sainsbury over 800 Sainsbury Local shops.

 

[35B]

I think there is a strong argument that the residual idea of a day off doesn’t exist anymore and that some people don’t work a 9-5 job now. Also by removing Sundays as the ‘day off’ it doesn’t affect the large majority of the working population, for example you wouldn’t have an office open on a Sunday if it was changed, similar to how a conventional office remains closed on a Saturday.

Those stores in retail that would be open (or for longer) would either have their staff work more hours or hire new staff, particularly teenagers where it’s difficult to find a job and wouldn’t care whether they work on Sundays.

For many, perhaps. But for many others, the concept of working and non-working days is important as a way to allow planning of life. For the religiously observant, it ensures that they can worship in accordance with their faith's calendar. For others, it may just be rituals like sunday lunch.

My point is not about whether or not certain businesses are open on a Sunday, but about the ability of those employed to have confidence that they will have a specific day off that they can plan around - just as those who work 9-5 do.

 

[zero]

If I was forced to work 5 days a week, I would choose to work Sunday to Thursday.

 

[jon0844]

I think that if people come to shop at centres socially rather based on necessity they should be open a bit longer to cater for different times, as the footfall isn’t concentrated in the same way that a supermarket is. That’s just my personal opinion though.

With Westfield, although I haven’t been, it is quite central to Stratford so I imagine it does become a place to eat as it is most likely an integral part of the area, though that is my assumption and feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.

I think the lower level food court may close when the shops do, but I'm not 100% sure. I'd imagine the McDonald's stays open, and you can usually still walk through the centre even when the shops are closed (all have their own doors/shutters).

The food places upstairs and the large restaurants stay open late.

You can certainly shop between 1200 and 1800 and then go eat after, or stay for a drink (assuming you can afford the price of alcohol in such locations!).

 

[Metrolink]

I think the lower level food court may close when the shops do, but I'm not 100% sure. I'd imagine the McDonald's stays open, and you can usually still walk through the centre even when the shops are closed (all have their own doors/shutters).

The food places upstairs and the large restaurants stay open late.

You can certainly shop between 1200 and 1800 and then go eat after, or stay for a drink (assuming you can afford the price of alcohol in such locations!).

That sounds quite similar to where I work.

For many, perhaps. But for many others, the concept of working and non-working days is important as a way to allow planning of life. For the religiously observant, it ensures that they can worship in accordance with their faith's calendar. For others, it may just be rituals like sunday lunch.

My point is not about whether or not certain businesses are open on a Sunday, but about the ability of those employed to have confidence that they will have a specific day off that they can plan around - just as those who work 9-5 do.

I agree but everyone has different schedules and days off etc. I don’t see why this can’t be catered for. Also most services that I would personally think should be open on a Sunday mainly is centred on retail, and employees usually set an availability when it comes to this as they are seen as flexible workers.

 

[AlistairCowell]

Or does the food court have to comply with the six-hour rule if they are in a shopping centre? I heard they cannot section-off a large shop when it comes to complying STA 1994.

I know there is McDonalds inside some ASDA supermarkets, I seen some before.

 

[AlterEgo]

For many, perhaps. But for many others, the concept of working and non-working days is important as a way to allow planning of life. For the religiously observant, it ensures that they can worship in accordance with their faith's calendar. For others, it may just be rituals like sunday lunch.

My point is not about whether or not certain businesses are open on a Sunday, but about the ability of those employed to have confidence that they will have a specific day off that they can plan around - just as those who work 9-5 do.

Sunday trading laws protect so few people in this regard - just retail workers in large shops (maybe 1.5m people of 70+m population?) - it doesn’t really work as a way of arguing that this protection is necessary.

 

[styles]

I was heading back up north from the forum walk on Sunday and needed fuel. Decided to pop into Asda while 8 was there but oops actually it closed at 4pm.

I get caught out with this a few times a year, as I'm just used to doing my weekly food shop at 10pm on a Sunday.

I don't particularly subscribe to the idea that the government shouldn't have any say whatsoever in when shops can open, but most reasons for preventing 24/7 opening should really be local authority decisions based on e.g. noise, light pollution, antisocial behaviour from boozers, etc. Certainly I don't believe a blanket ban on opening supermarkets after 6pm on a Sunday essentially because religion is proportionate.

It is worth noting that many supermarkets have opted to ditch their 24/7 opening where it hasn't been profitable anyway. When I was living in Nottingham our local Tesco was open 24 hours Mon-Sat and I think 10-4 on Sundays. They canned that nearly a decade ago now as it just wasn't worthwhile.

According to someone I know who works at the big Co-op Food in Stornoway, a non-trivial number of islanders are boycotting Tesco entirely after they decided to open on Sunday afternoons. So there's even examples of it working against their interests, though appreciate Lewis is a bit of a unique case.

 

[35B]

Sunday trading laws protect so few people in this regard - just retail workers in large shops (maybe 1.5m people of 70+m population?) - it doesn’t really work as a way of arguing that this protection is necessary.

Understood and agreed - and I'd extend that protection to all workplaces requiring 7 day opening to allow people to nominate their standard day off.

 

[AlterEgo]

Understood and agreed - and I'd extend that protection to all workplaces requiring 7 day opening to allow people to nominate their standard day off.

I wouldn’t be opposed to that; it would be a good idea to have a single fixed day off you can schedule things for prior to knowing a rota.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Understood and agreed - and I'd extend that protection to all workplaces requiring 7 day opening to allow people to nominate their standard day off.

With a premium rate for working the most nominated day.

 

[35B]

With a premium rate for working the most nominated day.

No, with a premium for working that person's nominated day. This is about protecting individuals, and needs to respect their personal preferences.

 

[greatkingrat]

No, with a premium for working that person's nominated day. This is about protecting individuals, and needs to respect their personal preferences.

So what happens when everyone nominates Saturday or Sunday? In 24/7 industries, it is simply not possible to respect everyone's individual preference.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

No, with a premium for working that person's nominated day. This is about protecting individuals, and needs to respect their personal preferences.

I accept your idea as a principle but in practice under such conditions most businesses would simply avoid ever rostering anyone on their nominated day. Which brings us back to Sundays as I would fully expect it to be the most nominated day in most workplaces. If Sunday working is essential to the business then a premium rate for it compensates for that particular preference not always being met. Unlikely to be necessary on other days.

 

[AlistairCowell]

I was heading back up north from the forum walk on Sunday and needed fuel. Decided to pop into Asda while 8 was there but oops actually it closed at 4pm.

I get caught out with this a few times a year, as I'm just used to doing my weekly food shop at 10pm on a Sunday.

I don't particularly subscribe to the idea that the government shouldn't have any say whatsoever in when shops can open, but most reasons for preventing 24/7 opening should really be local authority decisions based on e.g. noise, light pollution, antisocial behaviour from boozers, etc. Certainly I don't believe a blanket ban on opening supermarkets after 6pm on a Sunday essentially because religion is proportionate.

It is worth noting that many supermarkets have opted to ditch their 24/7 opening where it hasn't been profitable anyway. When I was living in Nottingham our local Tesco was open 24 hours Mon-Sat and I think 10-4 on Sundays. They canned that nearly a decade ago now as it just wasn't worthwhile.

According to someone I know who works at the big Co-op Food in Stornoway, a non-trivial number of islanders are boycotting Tesco entirely after they decided to open on Sunday afternoons. So there's even examples of it working against their interests, though appreciate Lewis is a bit of a unique case.

Scotland is deregulated, whilst in England and Wales there is a STA 1994 regulation to force large shops to open no longer than six-hours between 10am and 6pm, and that is what Scots seem to forget. I'm from Scotland too and we have supermarkets that open 24/7 or 6am to Midnight, even on a Sunday. Morrisons supermarkets does 8am to 8pm on a Sunday vice 7am to 10pm for the rest of the week. Even so, many retail shops close at 6pm on a Sunday.

Indeed, the blanket ban on opening large shops and supermarkets after 6pm in on a Sunday in England, Wales and Northern Ireland is most definately the case.

 

[SuspectUsual]

So what happens when everyone nominates Saturday or Sunday? In 24/7 industries, it is simply not possible to respect everyone's individual preference.

Like the railway, for example. Then the whole country can have Northern style Sundays!

 

[Cross City]

some people don’t work a 9-5 job now

9-5 jobs are comfortably a minority in the UK now.

 

[styles]

9-5 jobs are comfortably a minority in the UK now.

Indeed, apparently a mere 6% of workers do a 9-5 gig, though of course there's many doing e.g. 8-4. And this survey was back in 2018:

Over nine in ten not working the usual 9-5 week

A new YouGov survey in conjunction with Teneo Blue Rubicon and McDonald’s reveals that almost six in ten (58%) UK workers would choose to start work earlier than 9am if they could leave earlier than 5pm.

yougov.co.uk

The survey, conducted among over 1,800 UK workers, shows that just 6% of UK workers are working a ‘normal’ 9-5 day.

I prefer something like 7-3 where I can, and the Indian team I work with appreciate it as we get better timezone overlap. This was I have more of the afternoon/evening to myself. Especially important here in Scotland where the winter nights are long - if I don't go for a walk with the dog by 3:30pm it's getting dark.

 

[Cross City]

I prefer something like 7-3

I am thankfully able to work flexibly and 7-3 or 6-2 are by far my most preferred times to be logged on from home or in the office. Minimal traffic on the roads when I have to go in and I still get a good chunk of the day afterwards to do whatever I need to do.

9-5 just feels like it takes up my entire day with little room to do other things either side of my shift.

 

[dcbwhaley]

Indeed, apparently a mere 6% of workers do a 9-5 gig, though of course there's many doing e.g. 8-4. And this survey was back in 2018:

Over nine in ten not working the usual 9-5 week

A new YouGov survey in conjunction with Teneo Blue Rubicon and McDonald’s reveals that almost six in ten (58%) UK workers would choose to start work earlier than 9am if they could leave earlier than 5pm.

yougov.co.uk

I prefer something like 7-3 where I can, and the Indian team I work with appreciate it as we get better timezone overlap. This was I have more of the afternoon/evening to myself. Especially important here in Scotland where the winter nights are long - if I don't go for a walk with the dog by 3:30pm it's getting dark.

I used to enjoy working the Late shift 2pm to 10 pm.
Just time for a pint on the way home, a normal nights sleep and several hours of morning daylight for outdoor jobs.

 

[317 forever]

It means that there is a lot more traffic on the roads which impinges on the pleasure of those of us who enjoy a quite day

If you are not driving anywhere yourself, then it makes no difference.

If you are driving, then you are contributing to the traffic for everyone else who is driving.

 

[styles]

I used to enjoy working the Late shift 2pm to 10 pm.
Just time for a pint on the way home, a normal nights sleep and several hours of morning daylight for outdoor jobs.

Must admit I used to like working nights when I was a teenager. No customers, headphones in, drop a few dozen pallets, stock shelves, condense pallets and put back.

Was quite 'honest' graft and you felt you'd earnt your fry up when you got home.

 

[317 forever]

Another anomaly is that Bank Holidays do not have the same restrictions as Sundays, but shops often slightly shorter hours than any day Monday-Saturday.

I remember being caught out a few years ago by a Sainsbury's closing at 7pm one May Bank Holiday. It would never have been due to close at 7pm on any ordinary day.

Furthermore, with buses often running Sunday services on Bank Holidays, but shops having longer hours, it can make Sunday services busier or insufficient before 10/11am and after 4/5pm.