Sunday Services

[jon0844]

For people looking for a day out, perhaps there could be some early services and then a bit of a break in service. It means people CAN have a long day out, but will have to make some effort to get up early.

You could then have more services in the evening, to get those day trippers home as well as the people who went away for the weekend.

Would that be a better use of limited resources (staff) on a Sunday?

I know there are issues on the hours a driver can do, plus the possessions on some lines for engineering from Saturday night/Sunday morning, but you can get around these issues with a little determination.

 

[Deerfold]

I have never understood this. New Year's Day in particular! I remmebr one time when the early shift at Reading sold about 21 tickets before 1100 on January 1st!

That one annoys me in West Yorkshire - we haven't had New Year's buses since 1994 (and that was a skeleton service - the village I lived in at the time had 7 buses all day instead of a weekday 3-4 an hour and Sunday 2-3 an hour). Meanwhile there's 4 trains an hour tootling along through Halifax - but you won't catch a bus to the station. I'm now a rather shorter walk to my local station but can't see New Year's Day being the busiest.

I've found my local services rather disapointing on a Sunday - 1tp2h to Bradford is inconvenient - especially when trying to connect to a service along the Calder Valley line (3tph as far as Halifax).
And the routeing isn't valid via Leeds even though this is often a quicker route Oddly my trains into Leeds run an hour *later* on a Sunday.

 

[90019]

In all seriousness though I think we all deserve a day of rest, & that includes rail staff, & with the exception of leisure activities more shops & businesses should close on a Sunday. People would then have one day to visit friends & family, do something local (no transport req apart from shank's pony or cycle), do the garden/lie on the couch or how about this radical thought - even go to church

Thing is, if you have no sunday services, people going away for the weekend will no longer be able to get the train back, so will go by car, bus, etc. instead, which, for cars and buses, will mean that there will be even more traffic on the motorways at the weekend and less people travelling by train on saturdays.

 

[Greenback]

Thing is, if you have no sunday services, people going away for the weekend will no longer be able to get the train back, so will go by car, bus, etc. instead, which, for cars and buses, will mean that there will be even more traffic on the motorways at the weekend and less people travelling by train on saturdays.

And a better choice and spread of services on a Sunday would help more people choose the train!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

For people looking for a day out, perhaps there could be some early services and then a bit of a break in service. It means people CAN have a long day out, but will have to make some effort to get up early.

You could then have more services in the evening, to get those day trippers home as well as the people who went away for the weekend.

Would that be a better use of limited resources (staff) on a Sunday?

I know there are issues on the hours a driver can do, plus the possessions on some lines for engineering from Saturday night/Sunday morning, but you can get around these issues with a little determination.

My opinion - TOC's don't want early Sunday services as it's a headache for them to organise replacement coaches during engineering possessions!

 

[Kernowfem]

I do believe the sunday service on my local line (sheffield to lincoln) is quite sparse. The first train through Kiveton Park (ive been informed) is 2 pm. It would be nice to see a more regular sunday service on this line as there are a lot of walkers in this area and a lot of uni students travelling back to Lincoln.

It would be good to go shopping to Lincoln on a sunday without taking the car so at least one morning service would be good.

 

[mickey]

One around here with no Sunday trains is Preston-Ormskirk, which is signalled by smaller boxes I think

Actually just one 'smaller box'. I don't remember where but it's the station with the level crossing. The 'signalling' is two batons, exchanged between the driver and signalman (always fun to watch when it's raining as they run around like madmen!).

I think one problem is that rail (& bus) companies have not adjusted to the fact that Sunday is now one of the busiest shopping days in large towns/cities

I think the companies have; it's the staff who refuse to accept this. As shown here:

As you should all know by now the later starts on a Sunday are to allow we rail staff to have a wee bevvie on a Saturday night and not have to worry about being over the limit on the Sunday morning.[...] In all seriousness though I think we all deserve a day of rest, & that includes rail staff, & with the exception of leisure activities more shops & businesses should close on a Sunday.

What kind of service industry can get away with that kind of attitude? "We want to get drunk and stuff anyone who wants to get anywhere, they shouldn't want to anyway."
I would be the first to stand up in support of full and regular rest days, and would even argue in favour of giving staff late shifts the day after one so they can relax without worry. However, only if it's done in such a way as to be flexible, so not everyone has the same night off and services can run on a 7-day basis. As identified above, society has changed, and services should change to keep up. Let's not forget either that in today's multicultural society there will (or should, if the industry is as inclusive as it should be...) be individual staff members who don't follow 'traditional' belief patterns, for whom Sunday is just another day (both atheist and non-Christian faiths), and for whom such archaic shift patterns may well be just as annoying as they are for customers.

People would then have one day to visit friends & family

Erm, how exactly, when there aren't any trains?

 

[northwichcat]

On my local line (Chester to Manchester via Altrincham) the Sunday service went from every 3 hours to every 2 hours and passenger numbers went up by 400% in the first year, not that they were that low per train when it was 3 hourly. You think the 400% increase would justify an hourly service being tried but Northern don't want to do that.

 

[trentside]

I do believe the sunday service on my local line (sheffield to lincoln) is quite sparse. The first train through Kiveton Park (ive been informed) is 2 pm. It would be nice to see a more regular sunday service on this line as there are a lot of walkers in this area and a lot of uni students travelling back to Lincoln.

It would be good to go shopping to Lincoln on a sunday without taking the car so at least one morning service would be good.

I believe the first stopping train at Kiveton Park on Sundays (the 1417, the 1357 ex-Sheffield) actually terminates at Retford, with the first through train to Lincoln not until 1622 (the 1602 ex-Sheffield), arriving in Lincoln at 17:21.

The first through train from Sheffield to Lincoln (the 13:42) non-stops all stations between Sheffield and Worksop.

 

[Kernowfem]

I believe the first stopping train at Kiveton Park on Sundays (the 1417, the 1357 ex-Sheffield) actually terminates at Retford, with the first through train to Lincoln not until 1622 (the 1602 ex-Sheffield), arriving in Lincoln at 17:21.

The first through train from Sheffield to Lincoln (the 13:42) non-stops all stations between Sheffield and Worksop.

Thanks for that trentside. So our local sunday service is even more pants than i first thought....i suppose thats why i never use it.

With a much more regular service i would certainly be tempted to leave the car at home and travel by train on a sunday.

 

[First class]

Actually just one 'smaller box'. I don't remember where but it's the station with the level crossing. The 'signalling' is two batons, exchanged between the driver and signalman (always fun to watch when it's raining as they run around like madmen!).

Actually, there is 2.

Rufford (with the level crossing) and Midge Hall. Both use tokens, Rufford using a baton and Midge Hall using a bag.

You then enter the realms of Preston PSB, or Sandhills IECC for Merseyrail, (with no connection atm).

That is one particular line that does warrant a 2-hourly Sunday service. The good news is that (usually) each Christmas there is usually a limited Sunday service to enable people to get into Liverpool getting bits of their shopping...

I hate the way that there are no 'fast' Northern trains from Liverpool on a Sunday, the Man Airport and Preston trains take about an extra 30 minutes!

Also just a reminder that the Merseyrail Summer Service Sunday Timetable has now ended and reverts to 30 min service on all lines.

 

[mickey]

I hate the way that there are no 'fast' Northern trains from Liverpool on a Sunday, the Man Airport and Preston trains take about an extra 30 minutes!

The Airport link doesn't bother me as there's still a decent fast connection with TPE - which tbh I usually use anyway, even on weekdays, as I prefer the 185s.

Preston, on the other hand, does warrant a fast connection, particularly when you consider the Blackpool daytrippers.

Incidentally, though slightly off topic, the withdrawal of the Northern fast to Man Vic still irks me, and I wish they'd bring it back.

 

[Tomnick]

Actually, there is 2.

Rufford (with the level crossing) and Midge Hall. Both use tokens, Rufford using a baton and Midge Hall using a bag.

You then enter the realms of Preston PSB, or Sandhills IECC for Merseyrail, (with no connection atm).

If I'm not mistaken, TCB Preston to Midge Hall, then ETB Midge Hall to Rufford (the tokens for which are probably what you've seen carried in a pouch) and finally OTW from Rufford to Ormskirk (the single staff resembling the "baton").

Just an afterthought: in response to Mickey's original post, there is fixed signalling at both Midge Hall and Rufford, albeit very simple in both cases.

 

[cuccir]

As you should all know by now the later starts on a Sunday are to allow we rail staff to have a wee bevvie on a Saturday night and not have to worry about being over the limit on the Sunday morning. Where should every self respecting British person be on a Sunday morning but in bed (not necessarily your own) nursing a hangover

In all seriousness though I think we all deserve a day of rest, & that includes rail staff, & with the exception of leisure activities more shops & businesses should close on a Sunday. People would then have one day to visit friends & family, do something local (no transport req apart from shank's pony or cycle), do the garden/lie on the couch or how about this radical thought - even go to church

However I believe we do need Sunday trains. With some obvious exceptions, eg the Cumbrian Coast Line (CBC), I think services are adequate BUT I think we definitely need LONGER trains on a Sunday.

But no-one (on here) is suggesting making staff work more days a week. If services were increased surely the income would match the cost of hiring more staff, offering part-time staff more hours, etc. I've certainly appreciated places opening Sundays in my life - it helped keep me in employment whilst at sixth form and an undergraduate student for one thing! I don't see beliefs about how people ought to live their lives should come into the provision of rail services. That said, as a realist, I do accept that if the TOCs were to attempt to increase Sunday services one way they'd try to do this would be to make staff work longer hours;

I suspect Greenback's assessment of wanting to have to run fewer rail replacement services on engineering days - and indeed, having a day where engineering work is easier to schedule - is closer to the truth. And, maybe, the hassle of poorer Sunday services is worth this if it reduces mid-week engineering disruption.

 

[reb0118]

Actually just one 'smaller box'. I don't remember where but it's the station with the level crossing. The 'signalling' is two batons, exchanged between the driver and signalman (always fun to watch when it's raining as they run around like madmen!).


I think the companies have; it's the staff who refuse to accept this. As shown here:

What kind of service industry can get away with that kind of attitude? "We want to get drunk and stuff anyone who wants to get anywhere, they shouldn't want to anyway."
I would be the first to stand up in support of full and regular rest days, and would even argue in favour of giving staff late shifts the day after one so they can relax without worry. However, only if it's done in such a way as to be flexible, so not everyone has the same night off and services can run on a 7-day basis. As identified above, society has changed, and services should change to keep up. Let's not forget either that in today's multicultural society there will (or should, if the industry is as inclusive as it should be...) be individual staff members who don't follow 'traditional' belief patterns, for whom Sunday is just another day (both atheist and non-Christian faiths), and for whom such archaic shift patterns may well be just as annoying as they are for customers.

Erm, how exactly, when there aren't any trains?

Hook, line, & sinker!

 

[MCR247]

I'm really pleased with EMTs London service on a sunday First service from Nottingham at 0710-19 and they run hourly

 

[dk1]

If you give passengers a good service they tend to use it. Great Yarmouth has had an awful Winter Sunday service for years inc NO train 08.19-11.20, but since 2007 NX have introduced a roughly hourly service which outside Summer has alternatley gone via Acle for the first time in 40 odd years. Even with stiff bus competition many of these trains are really well loaded with a 153 not being enough now on certain services. The odd man out is now the Lowestoft-Norwich route which even though it has increasing passenger use has seen no improvement on the basic 2-hourly frequency since the early 90s with a very poor late start of 09.50 from the coast.

 

[scotsman]

Amazingly, Edinburgh - Glasgow QS is only hourly. The same as Fife, which just about gets by with the service.

 

[Greenback]

If you give passengers a good service they tend to use it. Great Yarmouth has had an awful Winter Sunday service for years inc NO train 08.19-11.20, but since 2007 NX have introduced a roughly hourly service which outside Summer has alternatley gone via Acle for the first time in 40 odd years. Even with stiff bus competition many of these trains are really well loaded with a 153 not being enough now on certain services. The odd man out is now the Lowestoft-Norwich route which even though it has increasing passenger use has seen no improvement on the basic 2-hourly frequency since the early 90s with a very poor late start of 09.50 from the coast.

You're right. One thing is certain, if you have a service out at 1245, and the next one at 1900, it's a massive disincentive to using the train.

But of course, the argument then is, well no one is using the train, so there's no need for any more services! This may even apply to the Cambrian Coast!

 

[radamfi]

If you look at the Thomas Cook European Rail Timetable you will see most countries run virtually the same service 7 days a week, especially on mainlines. The difference between Sundays and the rest of the week is that the service might start later, there are no extra trains in the rush hour and there might be fewer stopping trains.

Belgium is an exception where Saturdays and Sundays are often different to Monday to Fridays, but even there the more important lines tend to be more or less the same 7 days a week. For example, trains from Oostende to Brussels run at xx14 and xx43 (change at Brugge) 7 days a week.

 

[PaulLothian]

Amazingly, Edinburgh - Glasgow QS is only hourly. The same as Fife, which just about gets by with the service.

Hourly till 11.30 and after 21.30 from Glasgow, but half-hourly through the main part of the day. From Edinburgh the half-hourly trains are from 12.00 to 21.00 for some reason.

 

[jon0844]

If we want people out of their cars, we obviously need to look at all the ticketing issues - but the next thing is running a reliable service at all times.

It's too early to start talking about services over Christmas (!) but to a lot of people, Sunday is a normal day. Indeed, besides people working on the trains, there are plenty of people who are working elsewhere from retail to restaurants and even offices.

As a public service, why shouldn't there be a good service on a Sunday? I don't want drivers to be forced to work on a Sunday if they don't want to, but what if some members of staff actually want to work Sunday - perhaps to enjoy time off in the week?

Would there not be enough people to volunteer to work Sundays (and not on an ad-hoc basis as is the case now, but actually as part of their OWN contract) and provide a service that at least matches that of a Saturday?

With more super off-peak tickets and weekend upgrades for first class, Sunday could be a real cash-cow for TOCs too.

 

[Greenback]

Indeed there are plenty of people who have to work on Sundays. I myself worked every Sunday over the Summer. On a couple of occasions I had to get a lift as there was no suitable train to get me there in time.

AIUI, some TOC's have Sunday as part of the working week, with others it is entirely voluntary. There will have to be a bit of work done to ensure that those who don;t want to work don;t have to, but I agree that there are probably some drivers who would be happy to work a few more Sundays in order to have more free days in the week.

It's a pity that there doesn't sem much willingness to get to grips with the staffing issue and see if something can be worked out to the benefit of everyone.

 

[jon0844]

I can see from a union point of view that staff should not be forced to work on a Sunday (or over Christmas) and any changes like that would be challenged. However, if someone doesn't want to work on a Sunday, does that person have any right to stop someone else from doing so?

I am sure you could get a team of people to fully staff a Sunday service. I even believe you could do so over Christmas and New Year. And, these people would still be union members, so - in theory - everyone would be happy.

But, simply mention any changes like that (as we'll get when the Christmas working thread is reopened, as it will be soon!) and people will suddenly argue that the day is special and must always be treated as such.

For the most part, since we got Sunday trading, a Sunday has become a normal day for most people. For people who work Monday-Friday, Saturday AND Sunday are days to do things, not just stay at home or go to church to pray. Things have moved on considerably!

 

[Greenback]

Quite agree. I like being off on quieter days in the week when I work weekends. I wouldn't want to work every Sunday myself, as it is a day when Mrs G doesn't work (though i can think of some men who would be glad to get away from the wife!) and we can go out, see family etc.

I'm sure there will be a few train crew who are happy to work a few more Sundays for one reason or another!

 

[Toots]

It has nothing to do with people working,you will nearly always get people to work the extra day,the problem is that funding has to be obtained,and generally this is from the local authority.The Preston Omskirk line has been mentioned and this is a case in point,NWR and Northern would run services but the funding has to come from Lancashire County Council and it would be hard to justify such a service for the amount of people that would use it.
The problem will be exacerbated as the spending cuts take hold ,and this will have a knock on effect on many Sunday services throughout the country as councils look to save money.

 

[jon0844]

I don't fully understand why you would need funding beyond the money generated by the paying passenger?

The idea is that more people would travel if there was a normal service on a Sunday.

Some services may require subsidies, as is the case even in the week, but that applies to buses too and is certainly not required for every service or route.

 

[ukrob]

I think it would be a safe assumption that Ormskirk to Preston would need a subsidy at all times surely? A one carriage train with two staff which I have never seen more than half full (admittedly I am not a frequent user).

 

[Toots]

You are safe in that assumption Rob.Jon,most regional and provincial services exist on subsidy in any case,except that this is supplemented by the fare box by commuters Monday to Friday and to some extent on Saturday.This type of income does not appear on Sunday so if people want a Sunday service its the council that has to provide it.

 

[Greenback]

We're back to the old, old argument then! If fewer people use the trains on Sundays, then is that because of an irregular or downright sparse service?

So much for the entrepreneurial prviate sector that we were promise don privatisation! 'No, we don't want to run any mroe trains just in case it costs more than we take in revenue. Please cna the public sector pay us to do it instead? (wail)'

 

[radamfi]

How does the rest of Europe fund its Sunday services (which as I said are typically very similar to the rest of the week)?