Sunday services, summer services.

[mike57]

First of all not sure where this best fits, but to me it is 'Speculative' or possibly 'Allocations, Diagrams and Timetables'

The current 'Sunday' services in many areas do not meet peoples needs. On our local line the first southbound service on Sunday is not until 10:43 (its 07:22 the rest of the week). If I drive to Bridlington there is a train south 1 hour earlier, but at 09:45 this is still late for a lot of things. I know a lot of other areas are the same situation on a Sunday. This pretty much rules the train out for attending an event further away on a Sunday. (Unless I am prepared to incur the inconvenience and cost of an overnight stop.)

I know 'rest day working' has been an issue in a lot of disputes recently, but surely moving to a 7 day a week railway has to be a priority.

So the questions, how much would it cost to make the railways a '7 day' undertaking and provide a Sunday service that is nearer a weekday service. Do we just 'suck it up' and buy out/pay off to get everyone available 7 days a week, with some compassion shown towards those who have genuine problems with weekend working (e.g. caring roles).

How close to the Saturday service does a revised Sunday service need to be. My view would be similar start and finish times but a thinner service at the start and end of the day.

This then ties into another related issue, a reduction in commuting and an increase in leisure travel so do all timetables need a review? Again on our local line, Hull to Bridlington and return is 2tph. In the summer this is well used, and appropriate, in the winter (outside school holidays) there is an awful lot of fresh air carried and 1tph would probably suffice most of the day. Do areas with a big seasonal flow need two timetables? Our local line are also trialling later Friday and Saturday services, and advertising them locally, this seems like the right way forwards, to try and provided trains when people need them.

So what could be done easily, and what could be done with reasonable investment, and finally is having engineering blockades concentrated on weekends now the best way of doing things?

 

[bluenoxid]

A lot of it depends on demand and how much disruption people are prepared to deal with when there are engineering works. Are passengers prepared to accept weeks or months of rail replacement buses?

 

[mike57]

how much disruption people are prepared to deal with when there are engineering works. Are passengers prepared to accept weeks or months of rail replacement buses

Surely the number of days taken for a particular task is related to the task, which for example with a '14 day task' could either be 7 weekends with disruption or two weeks if its all done at once.

 

[frankmoh]

With Southeastern they're always fixing something on Sundays in the network, so to have a "normal" service then might not even be possible.

I think the 2 per hour on Sundays on my line is fine, although if you go to the station in the middle of those 30 minutes, it will be quite the wait. No newspapers to read and the waiting room/ticket office with the books in it is closed.

 

[SynthD]

Surely the number of days taken for a particular task is related to the task, which for example with a '14 day task' could either be 7 weekends with disruption or two weeks if its all done at once.

No. It depends on the access and so on, but 7 weekends of work might be 1 week of work, or over 100 nights.

The first service of the day trains I’ve taken on Sunday are not busy enough to suggest earlier options would do much good. Where are the busy first services? The only ones I’ve heard of are the 5am tube services to the City, for cleaners, etc.

I do agree that 10:30 is late. Scarborough has a 8:55 to Manchester, maybe that’s where the early demand is.

 

[frankmoh]

No. It depends on the access and so on, but 7 weekends of work might be 1 week of work, or over 100 nights.

The first service of the day trains I’ve taken on Sunday are not busy enough to suggest earlier options would do much good. Where are the busy first services? The only ones I’ve heard of are the 5am tube services to the City, for cleaners, etc.

I do agree that 10:30 is late. Scarborough has a 8:55 to Manchester, maybe that’s where the early demand is.

First train of the day at 5:24am a few weeks ago, there was genuinely 10 people on that train including me. (not on a Sunday of course)

First tram of the day was even earlier at 4:45am or something silly like that. All of the 3 passengers were presumably working for TfL, and 2 of them were tram drivers. (but then who drives the tram to get there?)

There are a couple of people awake on a Sunday at 7am, but very few want to go out at this time. Especially considering the shops only open at noon or are closed for the day.

 

[The Planner]

Surely the number of days taken for a particular task is related to the task, which for example with a '14 day task' could either be 7 weekends with disruption or two weeks if its all done at once.

As noted above, it doesn't work like that. A 14 day continuous piece of work is more likely 9 or 10 weekends. You need to factor set up and hand back, which is only done once in a blockade. The other issue is that Saturday night Sunday morning is the only time many routes get any engineering access.

 

[RT4038]

As noted above, it doesn't work like that. A 14 day continuous piece of work is more likely 9 or 10 weekends. You need to factor set up and hand back, which is only done once in a blockade. The other issue is that Saturday night Sunday morning is the only time many routes get any engineering access.

Another issue of weekday line closures is that rail replacement buses/coaches will be much more expensive to procure, as currently these are usually in use at these times. This means buses/staff purchased and employed specifically for that purpose.

 

[The exile]

The first service of the day trains I’ve taken on Sunday are not busy enough to suggest earlier options would do much good. Where are the busy first services? The only ones I’ve heard of are the 5am tube services to the City, for cleaners, etc.

But surely the first public transport service on any route is likely to be more poorly used than later ones merely by being the first - unless it runs so late that there is massive suppressed demand?
Lack of early services is a gripe of mine m. Travelling from Bath on a Saturday morning for example, the first northbound XC you can offucially catch from Bristol is at 08.00 as the first Bristol bound train doesn’t leave till 07.08.

 

[Ken H]

To me Northern have the Settle - Carlisle sunday service wrong. Its a peak day for tourism in the railway catchment area, and there are special Sunday DalesBus services running. Sundays should be regarded as a peak day. And with early starts for those who want to be out on the hills for a long walk. Only needs to be Easter - end Sept. The winter sunday service is adequate. Not sure if the Morecambe lines needs extra summer Sunday trains TBH

 

[devon_belle]

How close to the Saturday service does a revised Sunday service need to be. My view would be similar start and finish times but a thinner service at the start and end of the day.

I think a long term ambition should be to provide a new Saturday+Sunday timetable catered for leisure demand. This could mean late/early trains for weekend-trippers, or more point-to-point journeys rather than purely regular clockface hourly timetables. Getting the capital cost of more staff/higher wages past the DfT would be tricky, but it would soon start seeing returns in my view.

In the case of one of my local lines (Dorking to Horsham), which has no trains from Saturday at 6pm to Monday at 6am, I think our needs would be better serviced by a Friday timetable minus peak extras!

 

[mike57]

I do agree that 10:30 is late. Scarborough has a 8:55 to Manchester, maybe that’s where the early demand is.

For the particular trip I was considering which triggered the post, I could go from Scarborough (well Seamer), but its then a 14 mile drive in the wrong direction, a higher fare, and a change in York. So the choice becomes drive or don't go.

To me Northern have the Settle - Carlisle sunday service wrong.

Another line which has a significant leisure element. My take is that on this route Saturday and Sunday services should be comparable, and I suspect even fine weekends outside the summer peiod will get quite a few day trippers, probably a lot travelling on a whim "It a fine day, lets... (walk/visit/meal out/whatever)"

I think a long term ambition should be to provide a new Saturday+Sunday timetable catered for leisure demand.

I would be interested to know what the proportion of the current Saturday travellers are travelling for work v travelling for leisure. One could see a situation where you might want an earlier service start, but perhaps a thinning in the middle of the day on some routes on a Sunday

 

[A S Leib]

The first service of the day trains I’ve taken on Sunday are not busy enough to suggest earlier options would do much good. Where are the busy first services? The only ones I’ve heard of are the 5am tube services to the City, for cleaners, etc.

I haven't generally gone that far on Sundays due to late departures, but I'd say Newcastle to Edinburgh and Carlisle could definitely do with earlier departures. I suspect engineering works are a stumbling block again, especially being too long for a single rail replacement bus to be desirable if not insurmountable in the former case.

 

[mike57]

The first service of the day trains I’ve taken on Sunday are not busy enough to suggest earlier options would do much good

I think its a bit of chicken and egg, because the earlier services are not there, train is no longer an option, bacause if you want to be somewhere late morning and the local earliest departure fails to deliver you in time, then it becomes drive or dont go, and either way the railway is the loser.

I haven't generally gone that far on Sundays due to late departures

It really limits possibilities, a lot of longer 'outings' are just not possible on a Sunday, and yet Saturdays continue to be very busy, so would earlier Sunday starts actually spread the leisure load over two days instead of one.

 

[I'm here now]

Really odd services run on Sundays skipping loads of stops (looking at XC here) down in Cornwall, on a supposedly not v. Busy day for train travellers. First train of the day is an express skipping stops at 08:00. The service could be so much more usable if it was more consistently stopping at stations (it would work up to around 2tph, which would be great) - random XC trains whizz through Camborne and St Erth (and Hayle) in the afternoon for no apparent reason.

 

[43066]

Do we just 'suck it up' and buy out/pay off to get everyone available 7 days a week, with some compassion shown towards those who have genuine problems with weekend working (e.g. caring roles).

If someone has signed a contract not requiring the them to work Sundays, why would that not justify them having a “genuine” problem with doing it? Especially when these people are already a lot more flexible than most employees in terms of days/hours spent at work.

In short: it’ll need to be brought in for new joiners, with those currently working given the option (this in practice, based on the experience at my former depot, means a majority would likely opt to bring it in immediately).

Nobody will want to pay for this, however. It has been discussed before that Sunday is usually the day in the roster where people change from earlies to lates, or vice versa, so - even where Sundays are already inside - increasing Sunday services to Saturday levels would require a substantial increase in headcount (because those who work on Sunday won’t be available to work an opposite shift on Monday).

I suspect we will continue with reliance on overtime to staff Sundays (and other days of the week), just has always been the case.

 

[mike57]

I suspect we will continue with reliance on overtime to staff Sundays (and other days of the week), just has always been the case.

To me this feels like two separate (but related) problems.

The wider issue of staffing levels, working conditions etc. which has featured in a number of disputes over the years, and the specific issue of arriving at a more useful Sunday service.

I know some staff like overtime as it boosts their pay, so if you eliminate it you uspset them, whereas other staff want their time off and work the 'basic' hours. Off the wall thought, do you offer two packages, a basic 37 hour work week and an enhanced week, 40 something hours, with uplifts for the hours over 37. You sign up for one or the other, maybe with the option to switch annually. This would at least ensure that manning levels can be adjusted to meet demand. Voluntary overtime beyond your agreed hours is only then needed to cover the unexpected.

Once that is sorted look at Sunday service provision, and maybe try and provide a better service, particlarly first thing to allow people to make longer day trips

Whatever you do will cost money to sort properly, and that is always the sticking point, and to be fair that is not the fault of the workforce. Blame the politicians and the race to the bottom to do everything on the cheap. My own view is money spent to sort these issues out once and for all, preferably with the agreement of the majority of the workforce would be money well spent, and I could think of places where that money could be found (outside the rail industry) I would interested to know what the likely one off and ongoing costs would be.

 

[amahy]

I do think we need some earlier services on Sunday. In Ludlow, on the Marches line, the first northbound train on a Sunday isn’t until 10:17. The first southbound train isn’t until over an hour later, at 11:40, meaning that there is only one train towards Cardiff all morning! However, there is an earlier southbound rail replacement bus service to Hereford at 08:55.

As for Summer services, a similar situation to the one you describe applies on the North Wales Coast route. I have holidayed there both in the Summer and Winter, and the contrast could not be more stark! In the Winter, most services carry only air and a handful of passengers. Whereas on Summer, all services are rammed full, especially between Chester and Rhyl/Colwyn Bay. Despite this, the timetable is exactly the same, no matter the time of year.