Sunday: GC vs NXEC - no contest!

[yorkie]

Tomorrow morning the direct line between York and Doncaster is closed, but apparently re-opens around 11:00. However the first NXEC to go through leaves York at 11:29! GC's 10:47 is booked to be first through and overtakes the 10:04, arriving in King's Cross 30 minutes earlier. The GC could be even quicker if it gets a clear run but unfortunately the 10:12 Hull Train is booked just ahead at Donny so it probably won't.

NXEC are so keen to moan about GC, but when there are any problems between York and Doncaster, NXEC make all their passengers inconvenienced by going via Leeds. I wonder if NXEC will persist with the slow Leeds diversions and calling at all shacks now that GC are on the scene?

No wonder NXEC were so worried about GC, because NXEC are not interested in providing a fast service from York to London at weekends and assumed people would travel with them anyway because, until now, there was no alternative.

                     NXEC    GC
York                 [B]10:04  10:47[/B]
Colton Jn            10/10  10/52
Church Fenton        10/13    |
Micklefield          10/17    |
Cross Gates          10/27    |
Neville Hill West Jn 10/31    |
Leeds            (a) [B]10:35[/B]    |
Leeds            (d) [B]10:40[/B]    |
Leeds West Jn        10/41    |
Whitehall Jn         10/41    |
Holbeck Jn           10/42    |
Wakefield Westgate   [B]10:52[/B]    |
Hare Park Jn         10/58    |
South Kirby Jn       11/02    |
Adwick Jn            11/05    |
Adwick               11/05    ▼
Doncaster            [B]11:15[/B]  11/11
Loversall Carr Jn    11/21  11/15
Retford              [B]11:30[/B]  11/23
Newark Flat Crossing 11/43  11/33
Newark North Gate    [B]11:44[/B]  11/34
Claypole Loop        11/50  11/36
Grantham             [B]11:57[/B]  11/44
Stoke Jn             12/03  11/49
Tallington Jn        12/11  11/56
Peterborough         [B]12:17  [/B]12/03
Connington South Jn  12/27  12/08
Huntingdon           [B]12:34[/B]  12/12
Sandy                12/46  12/19
Hitchin              12/52  12/28
Stevenage            [B]12:56[/B]  12/30
Woolmer Green Jn     13/01  12/32
Welwyn Garden City   13/03  12/34
Potters Bar          13/07  12/38
Alexandra Palace     13/12  12/43
Finsbury Park        13/13  12/45
Belle Isle           13/18  12/48
London Kings Cross[B]   13:22  12:51[/B]

 

[djw1981]

The problem is simple - NX should use their normal Leeds trains to do the all shacks and run fast from York, as GC do. As a resident in Scotland, I think that all Newcastle / Scotland services should be first stop York, especially when the new York services come online in 2009.

This would greatly reduce the journey length to Newcastle, and to Scottish destinations, and focus most changes on the ECML on York.

 

[thefab444]

Yes, I was quite suprised at how many long distance services stopped at Stevenage and Peterborough! :-?

The days of the truly express limited-stop train are well and truly gone anyway.

 

[me123]

Exactly DJW. Maybe stop a couple of Newcastle or Edinburgh trains (but none that travel any further) at Peterborough or Donny if they need to or if the demand is there, but faster journeys to England would certainly knock off a fair bit or ailrine compleition.

 

[gordonthemoron]

The Scottish services need to stop at Doncaster for connecting services that call at Peterborough, Grantham, Newark & Retford

 

[yorkie]

There should be 1 per hour non-stop, and another per hour calling at Doncaster or Peterborough. There needs to be an hourly service to Donny/Peterborough for connections.

There should be a third service, operated by Class 90s that terminates at York from 2009, which can call at all stations, and this would be a big boost.

 

[me123]

And there's a use for the 91s when HST2 comes to fruition!

 

[gingerheid]

No no no... all should be non stop bar a stop at Peterborough!

And this is where things start to go wrong I suppose; we want fast journeys and convenience. And I certainly want a stop at either Stevenage or Peterborough for a connection to Cambridge!

I think they've actually got it about right during the week.

 

[Tom B]

Indeed, there are fast services to Scotland, but equally there are those which stop. Please keep them - it would be a shame if there were no direct service from a major station such as Donny to Edinburgh.

(Or I just wouldn't like to change).

 

[andylloyd]

The problem is simple - NX should use their normal Leeds trains to do the all shacks and run fast from York, as GC do. As a resident in Scotland, I think that all Newcastle / Scotland services should be first stop York, especially when the new York services come online in 2009.

This would greatly reduce the journey length to Newcastle, and to Scottish destinations, and focus most changes on the ECML on York.

This is the case with the 1500 from KGX. It's first stop is York(1hr 46) then onto Newcastle for 1738 arrival.

When travelling back from London I always get myself booked on this service as its one of the fastest at the moment on the NEEC timetable.

Cheers

Andy

 

[me123]

I think Donny's a better place to change trains that Peterborough. Doesn't Peterborough require the train to come off the fast lines to stop? Doncaster (IIRC) also has better connections. But Peterborough does have the invaluable connections to Cambridge and the East...

I'm gonna suggest that GLC, INV and ABD trains run fast, EDB trains stop at Donny; and Newcastle trains stop Donny and PBO. Then again, if they eventually found the stock to run hourly to GLC (upon completion of HST2) and half-hourly to EDB, life would be much simpler indeed.

 

[Techniquest]

The INV and ABD HSTs should be limited stop, considering the huge distances involved. Beyond EDB, I'd make the INV - KGX RA Newcastle, then York, then KGX. None of this faffing around in PBO. Same can apply to the ABD - KGX ones as far as I'm concerned.

 

[andylloyd]

The INV and ABD HSTs should be limited stop, considering the huge distances involved. Beyond EDB, I'd make the INV - KGX RA Newcastle, then York, then KGX. None of this faffing around in PBO. Same can apply to the ABD - KGX ones as far as I'm concerned.

The 1300 from Newcastle(origin INV) stops at York then non stop to the cross.

Cheers

Andy

 

[me123]

The INV and ABD HSTs should be limited stop, considering the huge distances involved. Beyond EDB, I'd make the INV - KGX RA Newcastle, then York, then KGX. None of this faffing around in PBO. Same can apply to the ABD - KGX ones as far as I'm concerned.

Yes. The only exception, IMO, is the 1450 ex ABD which stops in Dunbar. It seems to be a popular service and, given it's arrival time in EDb, proves a useful commuter link to Dunbar which, let's face it, is a poorly servid station. Other stations between EDB and NCL are well served by XC anyway.

Newcastle and York are the main stations, other stops are, in some cases, hardly useful in anyway.

 

[Danny Dire]

GC win again

 

[yorkie]

I think Donny's a better place to change trains that Peterborough.

Depends where you're going! But yes, overall there are more places served by changing at Doncaster than Peterborough.

Doesn't Peterborough require the train to come off the fast lines to stop?

Yep, as does Doncaster (and Retford).

 

[me123]

I thought Donny had FL platforms? I'm not too aware of stations on the ECML though. Ta, Yorkie.

Anyway, that would maybe imply that an alternate stopping pattern would be more beneficial.

 

[1D53]

I thought Donny had FL platforms? I'm not too aware of stations on the ECML though. Ta, Yorkie.

Thanks to Quails!

Although time lost is not much in comparison to the likes of PBO.

 

[Craig]

Yes. The only exception, IMO, is the 1450 ex ABD which stops in Dunbar. It seems to be a popular service and, given it's arrival time in EDb, proves a useful commuter link to Dunbar which, let's face it, is a poorly servid station. Other stations between EDB and NCL are well served by XC anyway.

Maybe a better solution would be to run an hourly local stopping service down the ECML (Drem, then all stops to Newcastle). That would allow most NXEC and XC services to run non-stop with a few (maybe including the 1450) to stop at the bigger stations at peak times. Could even go wild and open a few of the closed stations too (Tweedmouth and Belford spring to mind).

 

[me123]

^ I think they're looking for more frequent local services down that way, but I think there's a few problems with that. ATM, Dunbar basically gets a peak time only service with a couple of XC trains through the day and this could/should be improved. If a 322 replacement plan comes along (which given the recent refurb isn't likely) FSR may consider opening a route down that way, but otherwise I don't see it happening, sadly.

 

[bluenoxid]

^ I think they're looking for more frequent local services down that way, but I think there's a few problems with that. ATM, Dunbar basically gets a peak time only service with a couple of XC trains through the day and this could/should be improved. If a 322 replacement plan comes along (which given the recent refurb isn't likely) FSR may consider opening a route down that way, but otherwise I don't see it happening, sadly.

Why 322 replacement. What about the 321's coming off lease from London Midland?

But it as been kicked into touch by the recent route report anyway.

The best thing to do is to increase the number of Scottish services that stop at Drem, Berwick, Alnmouth and Morpeth. Doncaster should be stopped at as much as possible, but it would be damaging to cut off all East Anglia - Scottish routes.

 

[me123]

Why 322 replacement. What about the 321's coming off lease from London Midland?

That would also work. It's just that I would imagine the N. Berwick and Dunbar bound runs would be in the hands of the same trains. Bringing 321s up would probably be a good idea when they go out of use down in England, but that does mean Scotland has a 320/1/2 hattrick :cry:

 

[bluenoxid]

So, common sense operationally and sadly that is how the railways try (when the DfT isnt meddling) to run.

 

[mealybar]

Its a shame it took us around half an hour to clear Hartlepool - Greatham. Signalling problems and we took the northbound track with reds and yellows to cover the couple of miles.

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

Points failure I was told by my colleague! Had been to the Ally Pally show and so was on that one!

 

[djw1981]

It it was timed in flights., so the Scotland-LKX train stopped at Newcastle then Doncaster, but was closely followed by the Leeds-LKX stopper, you could change there for Retford Newark, P'boro and Stevenage. The reverse will no doubt happen northbound, a Leeds train would get to Doncaster just before the next Scptland train (which being non stop from LKX could have departed even 30 minutes later from LKX).

The issue with a Edinburgh-Newcastle stopper is that is coves both FSR and Northern teritory. Northern would not be happy with the competition, but a solution could be to run an Edinburgh-Berwick (Drem, Dunbar, Reston*); and for Northern to extend their chathill service to Berwick. FSR could possibly run their service if TS funded it, and they increased one of their EMU orders (possibly with the E&G electrification in 2012-14), This will also be the next major DMU cascade I guess.

 

[me123]

FSR could possibly run their service if TS funded it, and they increased one of their EMU orders (possibly with the E&G electrification in 2012-14), This will also be the next major DMU cascade I guess.

I think this route would require better EMUs than a 320 or a 334 (more akin to an electric 170) due to the distance involved, both to Berwick-upon-Tweed (let alone Newcastle) and on the EG route, so waiting till then would be good I guess.

Could FSR/Nothern not collaberate on a EDB-NCL service, as they do on the GLC-NCL services? Such that FSR own and operate the trains, but Norhern frive from Berwick-upon-Tweed to Newcastle and mainatin c ouple of units there overnight?

 

[1D53]

The irony is this type of work is what a Class 333 in 2+2 form would be absolutely ideal for while Northern use them on the LNW Triangle.

 

[me123]

Indeed, the high acceleration on the units could help to keep the units from blocking the valuable and fast NXEC and XC paths on the line.

 

[thefab444]

Interestingly, NXEC are stopping at Huntingdon as well today.