Sun front page- iPads for Train Drivers

[dk1]

Yes we have always been paid around £300 as a new technology payment and everything is agreed with ASLEF to ensure that any workload involved with the iPad/tablet is kept to a very low & sensible minimum.

I must say I find using them fine now and can be very useful for finding out information quickly although I know some who refuse to even switch them on even to sign for compulsory notices unless absolutely forced to.

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I can only envy a group of rail staff whose union is strong and determined enough to win extra payments for adopting new technology, because it certainly never happened during my railway career! Not as a booking office clerk, going from Flexiprinters and NCR 51 machines to Intis and Aptis, nor as a Controller, whether moving from handwritten to computerised logs, manual fleet control systems to Promise, Gemini and Genius, or fault managing systems, again from handwritten to Frame, FMS and F2000. Not to mention taking on Trust Attribution, a major change to methods of working if ever there was one. On the contrary, any development which increased the business's efficiency, and/or reduced its cost, not to mention making our job easier, was generally regarded as a Good Thing.

Before becoming a driver I did unit control/maintainence & will always have a soft spot for Gemini.

 

[Facing Back]

None intended . Years ago I had a car allowance (everyone did) in a job which involved no business travel. Now I do lots yet have no allowances of any kind, it's all just expensed. That was perhaps your point - it was just another way of wrapping up some general purpose remuneration.

The optics are rather different for technology allowances applied to specific changes though, surely? Cause and effect is evident. It'd be better just to wrap it all up under "Sundry Inconveniences" 1970s style, right?



Without getting into too many specifics as it's a small world, think "Technology Consulting". I don't mean the PowerPoint and vapourware kind nor software as such. More hardcore tech stuff which indirectly ends up with actual custom physical equipment at the end customer.

To be fair, most extra-salary benefits are often correctly identified as fluff by the sort of people suited to that kind of work. They can see it's just money dressed up in fancy clothes. It's all a question of how much, and ok, how the dressing up can interact with personal taxation. On the whole though, it's simpler for a smaller employer to just offer a suitable amount of cash and let the employee decide what to do with it themselves. The exception to this would be defined benefit pensions where some/all of the risk is on the employer not the employee. However, they are mythical beasts as extinct as the dodo outside the public sector.

In real terms, the cost of the relevant skills seems to have stagnated or even fallen over recent years. Too much competition from brilliant youngsters being churned out by universities all over the world hungry for opportunity and willing to work their backsides off. Available salaries wouldn't work in London/SE. Outside, they do, helped by the fact that physical location is increasingly irrelevant (see the drop in income from commuting on the railway...)

As a vapourware technology consultant with extensive experience of powerpoint and software I've seen company cars going through phases. When I first started they were just moving from being provided only to sales staff to a perk provided as a status symbol (think early 20's graduate with their first BMW 3 series) and were a recruitment tool. As taxation rules changed, consulants outside of London who travelled a great deal would keep them and those who didn't would take the cash and then they started to die out with the proliferation of smaller companies taking much of the staff and business from the big-6 (then 5 then 4...). Then there was the rise of the specialist benefits companies where small companies like mine can pay a large company to provide benefits (cars, insurance, medical, concierge and life-style benefits etc) and staff benefit from the economies of scale to keep costs down and can choose what they value and take cash for the remainder. Cars are still popular with demand for electric company cars through the roof.

We find that kind of flexibility is considered attractive in motivating and retaining and whilst it is just money in fancy clothes to a degree, it allows access to services at a better price and often a better service - think health insurance where pre-existing conditions are covered or your 18 year old can drive a car without a £3k insurance bill.

To remain on topic - we provide iPads and don't pay anybody anymore money to use them to fill in their timesheets in on then and the updates work perfectly.

 

[357]

Unfortunately some unions are stuck so far in the past even moving from fountain pen to ballpoint scares them.

I've had a smart device since 2012 as part of my railway job - always without argument from the union.

 

[12LDA28C]

Mind you, back in the day, trains always had a second person, aka a guard. Nowadays, most trains are DOO and drivers have far more responsibilities and more to lose if they mess up

Back in the day, trains always had a second person (a secondman) and a guard.

 

[43066]

None intended . Years ago I had a car allowance (everyone did) in a job which involved no business travel. Now I do lots yet have no allowances of any kind, it's all just expensed. That was perhaps your point - it was just another way of wrapping up some general purpose remuneration.

Absolutely - total comp is wrapped up differently in various sectors, based on convention.

The optics are rather different for technology allowances applied to specific changes though, surely? Cause and effect is evident. It'd be better just to wrap it all up under "Sundry Inconveniences" 1970s style, right?

Absolutey (again). We’re all about preserving the 1970s on the railway, just with rather higher pay.

Joking aside, I agree the optics wouldn’t be great if that was the issue at hand, and if ASLEF were balloting for strike action based on that issue alone, but I suspect that isn’t the case at all - the article is ridiculously thin on detail. It’s almost certainly a failure to agree the tech rolled into the wider dispute. If anyone knows better, please do correct me.

Without getting into too many specifics as it's a small world, think "Technology Consulting". I don't mean the PowerPoint and vapourware kind nor software as such. More hardcore tech stuff which indirectly ends up with actual custom physical equipment at the end customer.

To be fair, most extra-salary benefits are often correctly identified as fluff by the sort of people suited to that kind of work. They can see it's just money dressed up in fancy clothes. It's all a question of how much, and ok, how the dressing up can interact with personal taxation. On the whole though, it's simpler for a smaller employer to just offer a suitable amount of cash and let the employee decide what to do with it themselves. The exception to this would be defined benefit pensions where some/all of the risk is on the employer not the employee. However, they are mythical beasts as extinct as the dodo outside the public sector.

In real terms, the cost of the relevant skills seems to have stagnated or even fallen over recent years. Too much competition from brilliant youngsters being churned out by universities all over the world hungry for opportunity and willing to work their backsides off. Available salaries wouldn't work in London/SE. Outside, they do, helped by the fact that physical location is increasingly irrelevant (see the drop in income from commuting on the railway...

Interesting to hear, thanks. And great to see such an eloquent contribution to a forum which can be starved of such; please do post more often! Interestingly my bother is a coder/app developer and has reported that salaries in that sector have dropped off for new joiners since he joined the industry.

The only extra-salary benefits that have ever made sense to me are a decent pension (as you say, virtually extinct), and private health cover. Otherwise I’d prefer cold hard cash I can bank, or blow, or invest.

 

[Falcon1200]

Before becoming a driver I did unit control/maintainence & will always have a soft spot for Gemini.

The locally-developed Promise system we used in Scotland was my preference. But we're getting off topic!

 

[bahnause]

Yes we have always been paid around £300 as a new technology payment and everything is agreed with ASLEF to ensure that any workload involved with the iPad/tablet is kept to a very low & sensible minimum.

A very sensible approach. As both a member of the developing/support group and a user of our drivers iPad, I can only recommend such an agreement. We work hard to make work less hard for the drivers. It was clear from the beginning to make the iPad an important tool, not just a PDF storage. There was no business case to just use it for some documents.

 

[Class 317]

I'm of sure I understand how a change from a paper to electric documents can be classed as a change in T&C's? A drivers job role has not changed because of this change and nor has his pay, conditions or shift patterns?

 

[357]

I'm of sure I understand how a change from a paper to electric documents can be classed as a change in T&C's? A drivers job role has not changed because of this change and nor has his pay, conditions or shift patterns?

Because they are used for much more than that, as explained by myself further up thread.

 

[dk1]

I'm of sure I understand how a change from a paper to electric documents can be classed as a change in T&C's? A drivers job role has not changed because of this change and nor has his pay, conditions or shift patterns?

Because it’s over and above what is agreed in the drivers terms of employment agreements. In the same way we had to be paid extra for taking weekly Covid tests & daily temperature checks when agreeing to work in ‘bubbles’ during the pandemic.

 

[Thirteen]

I doubt they'd be able to get iPads now as those are over 300 quid but you could get a decent cheap Amazon Fire tablet as a work device.

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Because it’s over and above what is agreed in the drivers terms of employment agreements. In the same way we had to be paid extra for taking weekly Covid tests & daily temperature checks when agreeing to work in ‘bubbles’ during the pandemic.

I could be wrong but didn't ARL request as part of the pay deal with London Overground was to switch from paper to digital payslips?

 

[dk1]

I doubt they'd be able to get iPads now as those are over 300 quid but you could get a decent cheap Amazon Fire tablet as a work device.

I’m confused by what you mean. The staff don’t buy the iPad. The company does that & the staff get £300 to agree to use it.

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I could be wrong but didn't ARL request as part of the pay deal with London Overground was to switch from paper to digital payslips?

Sorry, I don’t know what ARL is.

 

[357]

ARL

Arriva Rail London

 

[dk1]

Arriva Rail London

I wouldn’t no that I’m afraid. We’ve not had paper payslips for a few years now.

 

[357]

We’ve not had paper payslips for a few years now.

Crossrail made the change without even consulting anyone. Just had an email one day saying from now on payslips are sent by email!

 

[dk1]

Crossrail made the change without even consulting anyone. Just had an email one day saying from now on payslips are sent by email!

That’s very naughty indeed. I’m surprised it got agreed.

 

[43066]

I doubt they'd be able to get iPads now as those are over 300 quid but you could get a decent cheap Amazon Fire tablet as a work device.

A lot more than £300 for a decent iPad, these days! Add £1k to that figure.

 

[fishwomp]

In the same way we had to be paid extra for taking weekly Covid tests & daily temperature checks when agreeing to work in ‘bubbles’ during the pandemic.

In awe at the brass neck of this one - there could have been an alternative of staying at home and getting paid furlough rates (NB - average salary for drivers would mean the ~£25k cap would've hit pretty hard).

Did NHS workers get extra for being at huge risk - I read there was a bonus afterwards (paid in 2023), but not about anything during the crisis?

 

[357]

In awe at the brass neck of this one - there could have been an alternative of staying at home and getting paid furlough rates (NB - average salary for drivers would mean the ~£25k cap would've hit pretty hard).

Did NHS workers get extra for being at huge risk - I read there was a bonus afterwards (paid in 2023), but not about anything during the crisis?

The average salary of a trainee driver is around 25k.

The instructors would come to work anyway, as when not teaching they are a regular train driver.

A train drivers day is planned from start to finish down to the minute. Extra time has to be included to take the tests and check temperature.

Unless you think that they should be so grateful to be allowed to drive trains that they should work for free some of the time?

 

[dk1]

In awe at the brass neck of this one - there could have been an alternative of staying at home and getting paid furlough rates (NB - average salary for drivers would mean the ~£25k cap would've hit pretty hard).

Did NHS workers get extra for being at huge risk - I read there was a bonus afterwards (paid in 2023), but not about anything during the crisis?

Brass neck?? No, just a strong union supporting its members old bean. Remember we could have refused to train new drivers so end up in the shocking state of TOCs like TPE.

 

[irish_rail]

Meanwhile, on planet earth, most workers just deal with changes in the workplace and get on with it. Can you imagine shop workers demanding extra pay every time a new piece of technology is introduced?

Yeah and most shop workers have had payrises to reflect the new skills they may or may not take on. Train drivers on the other hand have had nothing since 2019, so forgive us for not rushing all at once. Though, as I said this is already in place at my TOC, I'm not entirely sure what the story is, I thought all TOCs had technology like this now....?

 

[NSEWonderer]

Meanwhile, on planet earth, most workers just deal with changes in the workplace and get on with it. Can you imagine shop workers demanding extra pay every time a new piece of technology is introduced?

Just because they "Deal with" doesn't mean they want to or accept it. Have you asked "Most" of these workers if given a choice would they just deal with the changes???

 

[fishwomp]

Brass neck?? No, just a strong union supporting its members old bean. Remember we could have refused to train new drivers so end up in the shocking state of TOCs like TPE.

Meaning of brass neck in English: "a type of behaviour where someone is extremely confident about their own actions but does not understand that their behaviour is unacceptable to others".

 

[dk1]

Meaning of brass neck in English: "a type of behaviour where someone is extremely confident about their own actions but does not understand that their behaviour is unacceptable to others".

Very strange considering how much we helped the company out.

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Especially as others did nothing at home. On the railway we had to Google furlough.

 

[officewalla]

Apart from the poorly written article, the only issue I see here is inertia to change. My TOC issues us with a tablet and a mobile phone. They are both part of almost everybody's lives these days so why wouldn't ASLEF and its members support progress?

 

[Darandio]

Apart from the poorly written article, the only issue I see here is inertia to change. My TOC issues us with a tablet and a mobile phone. They are both part of almost everybody's lives these days so why wouldn't ASLEF and its members support progress?

They do support it. At a price.

 

[43066]

Meaning of brass neck in English: "a type of behaviour where someone is extremely confident about their own actions but does not understand that their behaviour is unacceptable to others".

Unacceptable to whom, though? Sun readers? Tory cabinet ministers?

Apart from the poorly written article, the only issue I see here is inertia to change. My TOC issues us with a tablet and a mobile phone. They are both part of almost everybody's lives these days so why wouldn't ASLEF and its members support progress?

As noted above, I was given an iPad almost ten years ago as a trainee driver, and an ASLEF member. So I’m failing to see any “inertia to change” here, or “failure to support progress”.

Can you clarify what you mean, specifically?

 

[Robcuk]

I used to print newspapers prior to train driving, a friend still works in the industry and prints the sun - he earns way more than me. Works less shifts a month, has more holidays as well as many other benefits has been taking the whatsit out of me since we've been in dispute

 

[TUC]

It's called a technology payment. Like in many jobs, if you increase your skillset then you are rewarded for that. However this has all happened (at my TOC at least) many years ago, and we did get a small payment for agreeing to learn and maintain the new technology. This is nothing new, just sounds like a desperate paper, desperate to anger the increasingly dwindling right wing element of society.

In most other jobs using modern technology has long just been a part of the job, with no payment asked for or made. If anything, this story yet again shows the railway to be out of sync with the modern world.

 

[dk1]

In most other jobs using modern technology has long just been a part of the job, with no payment asked for or made. If anything, this story yet again shows the railway to be out of sync with the modern world.

Yes we’ve heard all this boring nonsense over & over again before. Perhaps the people in those jobs should aspire to do better in life or join a decent union.