Summons by Northern Rail..Advice Needed Please

[lesleypallmall]

There are 2 points here:

1, Am I to blame for being on a "Peak" train journey with an "Off Peak " ticket ?

2. Should I have contacted Northern Rail to pay the excess fare when I received the bill?

I would argue that the answer to Q1 is NO.

I asked for a Day Return from Manchester to Bolton, no mention of there being different type of tickets available,I paid the fare asked and got on the first train going to Bolton.
Coming back I showed my ticket to the ticket inspectors at the gate in Bolton, got assurance that my ticket was in order by the ticket inspector handing it back to with a thank you, and I got on the first train that was going back to Manchester.
There may be people who having gained access to the platform, want to spend 30 minutes having coffee/going to the bath/waiting rooms or watching trains come and go, but I think that by far the majority are simply looking to get on the next train home.
If I had been given any indication that my ticket did not allow me to travel on the next train then I would not have got on it.
The ticket inspectors at the entrance were not rushed there was only me to deal with in either direction. I should have been told that if I want to get on the next train it would cost me more. Then I would have had the choice of paying more or waiting. I would have waited.
By saying nothing the most likely outcome would be that I would get on the next train and then be mystified as to why I couldn't get through the barriers at Victoria and be pulled to one side and accused of criminal activity. Which is exactly what happened.
My own fault? Why, because every person who travels on a train ought to know about the different tickets and the exact times of Peak and off peak? Really?
As analogies have been used in this post, how about this one:

You go into a restaurant looking for just a quick bite but as steak is on the menu for £10, you order it.
You eat your steak and ask for the bill. When the bill arrives you have been charged £15 for the steak. When you query this you are told that the £10 steak weighs 6oz and you have just eaten a 10oz steak.
The restaurant insists that you have to pay the extra as everyone should have known that the steak that you were served was bigger than 6oz.
Would you agree and pay?
Question 2,
I didn't pay the access because I didn't owe it because I hadn't wanted/ needed to travel on a more expensive journey than the one I had paid for.

 

[najaB]

1, Am I to blame for being on a "Peak" train journey with an "Off Peak " ticket ?

2. Should I have contacted Northern Rail to pay the excess fare when I received the bill?

As we've tried to explain several times the answer to the first question has exactly zero relevance to the Regulation of Railways Act offence that you have been summonsed over. You haven't been summonsed for travelling with the wrong ticket.

The second question is the only thing the court will be interested in. And the answer is "Yes" you should have, and "No" you didn't.

Please, please, please put aside your feelings of indignation and take our advice - pay the £103 (approx) that has been requested and then take Northern Rail to task over the first question.

 

[andyb2706]

I was going to place a post here pleading for the OP to pay the £102.40, we have seen many posts on here go a similar way and that is the OP is not listening and is running on emotions on the subject and if I am honest here I can't say I wouldn't act the same way.

But lets say I was the OP and hearing the same thing from many people I might have to think hard and long about my actions going forth, please for your sake Lesleypallmall pay the £102.40

Or if you go to court it is highly unlikely you will win. Were is your prove that the TOC has done anything legally wrong, may be morally in not checking what train you are likely to be returning on, but nothing legally wrong and the court systems does not run on morally wrongs. In the end you will most likely lose, you have no prove, the TOC has your tickets as evidence, records of the letters that were sent to you that you never replied to so the court is likely to find you guilty with a bigger fine to take into court costs and a criminal record.

You state that "you are in your 50's and that career progression isn't an issue" but do you like to travel abroad? Some countries check for any criminal records you hold at home and they can bar you for the silliest of offences, also should you ever need a loan or use of any financial institutions a criminal record at its best could result in higher costs or even refusal.

Please leselypallmall do everything you can to prevent this going to court......see there you go I said I wasn't going to plead with the OP but I have. Please take a step back and seriously think what the consequences are going to be.

Best of luck.

 

[455driver]

I will ask again-

What were the dates on the top of the letters you received?

 

[yorkie]

Here's what I would recommend anyone faced with this situation, who feels aggrieved, to do:

1) Pay the excess fare as soon as possible at the first opportunity (usually this would be on the day, but in this case it was after the event, by post) and retain all evidence (if you have to give up any tickets, take photographs of them first).
2) Then complain that the NRCoC wasn't adhered to (as described in Sheff1's post #72 ), and if you are dissatisfied with the response, take it to Transport Focus and, if you feel a breach of the code of practice has taken place, the ORR.

Do not ignore the first demand for payment.

Do not contest it in court unless you have a lot of money to pay for experienced solicitors who are confident of victory.

Sadly it may now be too late for that in this case now. It's a shame advice wasn't sought when the first letter was received.

If it does go to court, do not try to represent yourself! Make sure you are properly represented by an experienced solicitor.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There are 2 points here:

1, Am I to blame for being on a "Peak" train journey with an "Off Peak " ticket ?

It sounds like the ticket seller did not meet their obligations, so a possible breach of consumer law may have procured. I would advise paying the excess and, separately, complain about the fact the code of practice and NRCoC were not adhered to.

2. Should I have contacted Northern Rail to pay the excess fare when I received the bill?

I would have advised doing that, because it's not a level playing field. The law is firmly on their side. As for the restaurant analogy, sadly the Train Companies have a lot of legislation which backs them up which restaurants do not have. Yes they can breach consumer law and it's hard to do much about it, but if you refuse to pay the fare - even if it's unfair - you can be prosecuted. It sucks but unless the law is changed, you have to face the reality of the situation unfortunately.

If you have some new information to add, please post it now. If not, I don't see the benefit in continuing to go round in circles discussing the matter until there is any further development.

 

[reb0118]

At the very least pay the £2.40 excess to Northern now. This will not in all probability halt any further action against you but it may just help your case - and it is only £2.40. After that is paid you can argue the toss with Northern with regard to any administrative penalty that is due - it is important that you keep up a dialogue with Northern and do not bury your head in the sand over this as the next stage will be receiving a court summons.

Others have given advice. It is up to you to decide your actions but do you really want to end up in court over this?

Does it matter want any of us think on the matter? Does it matter that some of us may think it is excessive? What matters is the element of risk if this matter progresses to a court and that you lose - think if you can afford to lose both in a financial sense and a reputational one.

Ask yourself if you feel that you have a good case based on the cold hard facts of the matter - not on any feelings of righteous indignation.

Ask yourself if others have been convicted of avoiding small differences in rail fares and if so what penalties have they have received? That said your case is different in as much as I feel there was no original intent to avoid the correct fare but merely a general misunderstanding. This misunderstanding has escalated though but you have had an opportunity to remedy this by paying the excess of £2.40 - again I say pay this at your earliest convenience.

The decision on how to proceed is yours. You could take legal advice but this may not be free (some lawyers do offer a free first consultation though). You could ask a friend but select a practical friend who will act as a Disinterested Party not someone who will merely echo your own views and opinions on the matter.

Good luck in your endeavours.

Edit:-

Oops - I've just realised that you have already received a court summons, and not merely a letter before action, and that you have received an offer of a pre court settlement. In that case just pay the settlement unless you really, really, want your "day in court".

Once again good luck.

 

[rs101]

I will ask again-

What were the dates on the top of the letters you received?

A more relevant question would be what is the date on the postmark (or date received if no postmark). Not had any experience with Northern, but have received plenty of other mail well after the date on the actual letter.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Further point.I'd fully agree with others that you should have been advised of the restrictions on the ticket when you purchased it. May even be worth contacting Northern separately and complaining about that, but it won't have any impact on the prosecution.
However, if it was the new ticket layout it clearly states restrictions apply. That would be enough for me to ask a relevant railway employee what those restrictions were.

In an ideal world, the gate operator could have warned that it was too early to travel, but that's not a mandatory function of theirs.

 

[185143]

I think everyone deserves their day in court. If you believe that you are not guilty of an offence then you shouldn't be forced to accept guilt and be criminalised because of it.

Nobody has said that the OP doesn't have the right to their day in court. What we are telling her is that should she choose to make use of that right she will be found guilty as the Court doesn't rule based on what the defendant believes but rather on the facts which are presented. And in this case the fact is that she boarded a train with the incorrect ticket. That was a minor infraction which she was given the opportunity to correct by paying the difference - £2.40. Everything that has followed is a consequence of not availing herself of that offer.

Buying tickets should not be a case of caveat emptor.

Why not? What's special about train tickets that absolves the purchaser of any responsibility for ensuring that they are buying the correct ticket and frees them from any liability for the consequences of buying the wrong one? Especially as the only thing that was initially requested was the difference in fare between the two tickets.

We have started to let people with off peak tickets on the platform but we do let them know that they are not allowed to board.

Why should they not be let onto the platform? There are toilets and a coffee shop on the Manchester bound platform, are you saying you should only be allowed to use those facilities if your ticket is valid on the next train?

not really relavent but I believe the coffee shop (independantly+very well run by two local people IME) has now closed