Summoned to Court

[summoned]

Hi all,
You must get these all the time but each is unique I guess

I recently got stopped on a train because my 16-25 railcard was 3 days out of date. I had no idea. I offered to sub the cost of the fare, buy a railcard and even buy a completely new ticket for travel which were all refused. A surprise given that all around people without tickets were able to buy tickets for travel on board. Anyway my railcard was seized and I was told I would be contacted within 21 days and would have to pay a penalty fare.

Instead I was asked for my version of events which I provided. I have today receive a letter telling me FCC are proceeding with the case and I will be summoned to court in due course. This is a disaster, I can't quite believe it but it is very real. Why wasn't I allowed to buy a ticket on board? Why wasn't I contacted to pay a penalty fare? And given that I made my intentions clear that I wished to settle out of court in the previous letter, is there anything I can do. I feel I should ring them tomorrow?

Cheers in advance.

 

[yorkie]

There's not enough information to give appropriate advice.

I am shocked you were not treated as making a mistake and therefore issued with a Penalty Fare (a charge made for a mistake in certain circumstances, such as forgetting to renew a Railcard) so either FCC are being very harsh or there is more to this.

The fact you're willing to settle out of court suggests, to me, that there is more to this.

 

[summoned]

What additional information would assist you please Yorkie? I am keen to settle out of court because I do not want a criminal record but I agree I am stunned they are taking me to court. There's no underlying motive on my behalf, I was on board a FCC train with a 3 day expired railcard. I cannot imagine my chances would be great in court? That said I completely agree that it is very harsh but it's not my opinion that matters!

 

[maniacmartin]

Have you been caught with ticketting irregularities before?

Which stations did you travel between?

 

[summoned]

I have been caught once before with a different rail company for sitting in 1st class. I appealed and it was taken back.

I was travelling from Cambridge to Paddington. I should add I think I refused the penalty fare on board the train. The inspector said I would be contacted within 21 days and would have a penalty fare of 2 times the full on the day single fee which would be £51. I don't know if I was able to pay on the spot but I certainly didn't anticipate I would be getting a court summons.

However I did offer to buy a full adult single as customers on board the train with no ticket were doing. This was refused.

 

[yorkie]

What additional information would assist you please Yorkie?

Everything!

After the way a recent thread went, I'm more reluctant to post unless I have all relevant info. You posted a lot of non-relevant info, but relevant info was lacking.

...I should add I think I refused the penalty fare on board the train....

Aha! There's your answer then.

However I did offer to buy a full adult single as customers on board the train with no ticket were doing. This was refused.

Where had the customers on board the train commenced their journeys? There are many stations near Cambridge without ticket issuing facilities and those people are entitled to buy on board (unless they had a long interchange time at Cambridge).

With all due respect, there is no point getting into that anyway!

You were liable to pay twice the full adult single, which is the correct charge made for the mistake of having an out-of-date Railcard on a journey commencing at Cambridge and on a train heading towards King's Cross where the ticket office was open.

Most Train Companies are more lenient than this (as you can imagine, Edinburgh-London is going to result in a different outcome), but the charge is correct for FCC from Cambridge to London.

If you refused to accept the Penalty Fare, that leaves FCC with no other option than to prosecute.

If you wish to settle out of court, you need to contact FCC as soon as possible!

 

[summoned]

Cheers, I will ring them first thing tomorrow.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I can think of a couple of reasons why you were not offered the opportunity to pay for a ticket on board, to pay a Penalty Fare, but I really don't think it's helpful atr this stage to be looking at possible faults with the railway company! The real issue is to look at the fault which the Railway Company claims to have found with you. What the Evidence is that they have to support their claim, and what Offence they believe is supported by that Evidence.

If you could please tell us what Offence the Company is Prosecuting against you, any information you have about the Evidence which they've gathered, whether you have instructed a solicitor to represent you (or intend to do so) and how long you've got before the Trial date, then we might be able to give some assistance.

 

[Stigy]

There is no automatic right to a Penalty Fare for a ticket offence, and therefore a TOC can proceed straight to court. We hear a lot of people say the staff said the company would contact them in due course and ask for a penalty fare. I can only think this as a cop out for said staff member who should really be advising you that you're being reported as they believe offences to have been committed. If they don't tell you you're being reported, they're theoretically in breach of PACE. However, in this case you were still told that the company would be in touch, albeit inaccurately.

Were you questioned under caution? I'd imagine the officer believed this to be more serious than a one off mistake, when speaking to you. If questioned under caution the reporting officer is obliged to ascertain your particulars and only the basic facts of the matter before cautioning. This might explain his actions.

 

[Chrisgr31]

On the face of the posts made it dpes seem incredible that one faces a court appearance for a young persons railcard that is 3 days out of date.

Personally seems to me that a criminal offence should only be a threat for persistent offenders or very serious cases.

 

[reb0118]

On the face of the posts made it does seem incredible that one faces a court appearance for a young persons railcard that is 3 days out of date.

I feel that the passenger is not being threatened with prosecution for an out of date railcard but in fact for his refusal to accept the penalty fare for his not holding a valid ticket.

In penalty fare areas it is incumbent on the passenger to ensure that they hold a valid ticket prior to travel.

 

[summoned]

"A summons to Magistrates Court will be received in due course"


Doesn't not say what for and it does not say a trial date. I will ring them today and let you know how it goes. Fingers crossed.

 

[summoned]

I was questioned under caution, I didn't really know what to say so I offered no comment

 

[Greenback]

That's not a valid comparison and also is a distortion of the argument being presented. What Chrisgr31 was saying is that the punishment should fit the crime. If, as had been originally posted, the OP had simply not noticed that his railcard was out of date by a few days then a penalty fare was appropriate, rather than a prosecution and potential criminal record.

We now know that a penalty fare was offered, but refused. Prosecution for failing to pay a penalty fare is appropriate.

Quite right. If the OP had accepted the PF that would have been the end of the matter.

They may still be able to settle the matter, but I would think it would cost more than the PF would have been.

 

[Clip]

Hi all,
You must get these all the time but each is unique I guess

I recently got stopped on a train because my 16-25 railcard was 3 days out of date. I had no idea. .

This doesnt help you in anyway whatsoever but did you not check your railcard was in date before you purchashed your ticket? What day did you travel on? Had you travelled on any of the other 2 days with a railcard discounted ticket?

I wouldnt worry about what other passengers were doing - you dont know their circumstances and it bares no relation to your case.


Write down day/time and everything else involved if you want any assistance from the people on here willing to give you any because it looks a clear cut case to me.

 

[SPADTrap]

What grounds did you refuse the PF on?

 

[summoned]

Inability to pay at the time

 

[Deerfold]

What grounds did you refuse the PF on?

Does it matter? Unless the OP had a valid ticket (and railcard) at the time it's a moot point now.

 

[najaB]

Does it matter? Unless the OP had a valid ticket (and railcard) at the time it's a moot point now.

It doesn't matter with respect to the potential prosecution, but maybe he spotted some way in which the issuance of the penalty fare was invalid and hence the prosecution will fail. I can't see one, but the legal world is a strange place.

Oh, I missed that it was inability to pay at the time - nope, that's not a reason for the prosecution to fail.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was travelling from Cambridge to Paddington.

What time did the train leave Cambridge?

 

[Stigy]

That's not a valid comparison and also is a distortion of the argument being presented. What Chrisgr31 was saying is that the punishment should fit the crime. If, as had been originally posted, the OP had simply not noticed that his railcard was out of date by a few days then a penalty fare was appropriate, rather than a prosecution and potential criminal record.

We now know that a penalty fare was offered, but refused. Prosecution for failing to pay a penalty fare is appropriate.

Okay then, so to put the cat amonst the pigeons....what if the member of staff believed the OP had realised the railcard was three days out of date but chose not to renew it and save himself the £30? People really need to start looking at the bigger picture and thinking outside the box. To be honest going No Comment probably didn't help, if Summons wanted to maintain they had nothing to hide. Because of the no comment interview alone, the prosecutions department probably think that summons was trying it on, and the Magistrates are also likely to see this too. Even if the evidence for an intent to avoid payment charge isn't evident, I'd say the TOC is likely to pursue the Byelaw breach at the very least, probably not helped by the no comment interview.

 

[Deerfold]

Okay then, so to put the cat amonst the pigeons....what if the member of staff believed the OP had realised the railcard was three days out of date but chose not to renew it and save himself the £30? People really need to start looking at the bigger picture and thinking outside the box. To be honest going No Comment probably didn't help, if Summons wanted to maintain they had nothing to hide.

I'm not sure what your point is.

Presumably in this case the Penalty Fare wouldn't have been offered, but apart from that we'd be in exactly the same situation.

 

[Clip]

Inability to pay at the time

Is it me or are you being confused

I recently got stopped on a train because my 16-25 railcard was 3 days out of date. I had no idea. I offered to sub the cost of the fare, buy a railcard and even buy a completely new ticket for travel which were all refused. .

I simply do not believe you as purchasing a new ticket and railcard wouldve come up to roughly the same price as the PF.

Of course you dont have to pay the PF in full at once and can even accept it and pay it off within 21 days.

Sorry but in light of the last railcard thread this is too soon and too inconsistant to actually be believable.

 

[najaB]

I simply do not believe you as purchasing a new ticket and railcard wouldve come up to roughly the same price as the PF.

I read it as excess to adult fare, buy new railcard or buy adult ticket. Each of which would probably cost less than the penalty fare (it wouldn't be much of a penalty if they didn't!)

 

[Deerfold]

I read it as excess to adult fare, buy new railcard or buy adult ticket. Each of which would probably cost less than the penalty fare (it wouldn't be much of a penalty if they didn't!)

Although only the single adult fare is due at the time - though obviously we don't know how obvious that was to the OP.

 

[Clip]

I read it as excess to adult fare, buy new railcard or buy adult ticket. Each of which would probably cost less than the penalty fare (it wouldn't be much of a penalty if they didn't!)

A full fare is the only real option as an excess is due to discretion and shouldnt really be allowed - others differ on this poitn though.

 

[SPADTrap]

Does it matter? Unless the OP had a valid ticket (and railcard) at the time it's a moot point now.

I was interested...questions are how one gathers information, often beyond the question asked.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It doesn't matter with respect to the potential prosecution, but maybe he spotted some way in which the issuance of the penalty fare was invalid and hence the prosecution will fail. I can't see one, but the legal world is a strange place.

Oh, I missed that it was inability to pay at the time - nope, that's not a reason for the prosecution to fail.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What time did the train leave Cambridge?

The amount of times I've seen someone refuse a reasonable and correct PF on the grounds of "you're wrong and a jobsworth and I'll fight this and win" which lead to an MG11 and subsequent prosecution. Just wondered if this was the case here.

The refusal of PF is surely the crux of the matter of why it's now a summons.

Why was you unable to pay may I ask? What reason did you cite?

 

[pethadine82]

or you could have got a penalty fare to the next stop, got off bought a railcard / correct ticket which would have worked out to be cheaper.

 

[island]

The refusal of PF is surely the crux of the matter of why it's now a summons.

Why was you unable to pay may I ask? What reason did you cite?

The OP has already stated above that he was unable to pay the amount. Asking again isn't likely to change that.

 

[bb21]

or you could have got a penalty fare to the next stop, got off bought a railcard / correct ticket which would have worked out to be cheaper.

... which as I understand is how the Penalty Fare system is supposed to work.

Looking at the price (~£51), I have a sneaky suspicion that it was twice the fare of a Cambridge - Zone U1* Londn full single (£25.60).

@OP. Can you confirm what ticket you held please, including the origin, destination and price? For the former two, more specifically, to/from London Terminals, or Zone U1* Londn, or something else?

 

[reb0118]

or you could have got a penalty fare to the next stop, got off bought a railcard / correct ticket which would have worked out to be cheaper.

True, might have been the Cambridge Flyer though? First stop London.