Summer's Over

[Oswyntail]

Yesterday, I travelled down to London and back. The morning (07:00 ex Leeds) trainset had been switched around at Neville Hill, and there were announcements at all stations that reservations were not valid, with the usual apologies. At Doncaster, a group of large, shaven headed, tattooed men got on, and, quite menacingly turfed a family with kids out of the two table sets because they were "our seats. Reserved". For the rest of the journey to London, they talked loudly about football and drank copious amounts of beer.
On the journey back, there were several similar groups of tanked up burlies throughout the train, again "talking" about football. After Grantham, there was an announcement that violence or threatening railway staff would result in the BTP being called; after Retford there was an announcement that "catering had been suspended". At Doncaster, there was a delay as the BTP "had been called to this service". (On my train on to Ilkley, the 23:15, there was also a group of drunkards in my carriage regularly shouting "Leeds United")
Now, I confess that I do not know whether the incidents on the return train were caused by the football fans, or what team they supported. What I can say is that their presence on all the journeys made the atmosphere very unpleasant and threatening.
Do people think this is a problem, or am I being over-sensitive (I dislike football for other reasons!). If it is a problem, what might be the answer? Control of alcohol? Some means of stopping football fans from travelling? From what I read, football as a sport seems to be washing its hands of this. I also know that the majority of fans are decent, well-behaved good folk.
Incidentally, I was telling some friends about this today. One of them suggested that the "train staff can be a little harsh and rude at times". I suggested that these staff might themselves be scared. Why should we expect railway staff to have to manage this sort of thing?

 

[Chester025]

If it is a problem, what might be the answer?

Nothing much really, some football fans always will be mongheads!

 

[Dai.]

After a run in I had with a drunken football fan I do think that there are problems here that have not been dealt with and should be dealt with.

It is public transport and people should have respect for other people, I believe a full out ban on drinking on trains/platforms should be bought in not just because of rubbish and the fact they could be drunk and endangering themselves but they can also be a danger to other passengers as well.

 

[caliwag]

Interesting business re bookings...personally if I'd been with the family I'd have told the fat-heads to check with the the conductor...on my own? I'm happy to accommodate, even for Fuc++its.
So waht are the rules about punters (sorry passengers) that have bookings, but the set is different? Bet some of them were Doncaster train drivers!!!

 

[yorkie]

Yes it is a problem and they are not really that interested in football. There are some far-right Leeds "fans" who are a disgrace to the species, so it does not surprise me sadly. I hope the family were upgraded to FC.

No-one should have to deal with it but unless we build more high security prisons or stop such people reproducing it will continue to be a major problem....! Neither is going to happen, so it will continue indefinitely...

 

[87015]

Why should we expect railway staff to have to manage this sort of thing?

Because they apply to work in public facing roles and, however sadly, a fair proportion of the British public can be unpleasant. Rail staff are at least prety well paid for it compared to some others.

Total ban on drinking on trains and stations?? Don't be so stupid!!

 

[ainsworth74]

Total ban on drinking on trains and stations?? Don't be so stupid!!

Why is it stupid? It seems like a rather good idea to me.

 

[thefab444]

Likewise, but it'd be pretty difficult to implement, and many staff would be unwilling to enforce it anyway (can't say I'd blame them either).

 

[cuccir]

I'd also suggest that the ability to drink on trains creates some demand for tickets, so would be unlikely to go for that reason.

East Coast often have dry trains on match day Saturdays; I'm surprised that this wasn't in place yesterday for these services if there were matches on. It might be that with the Premiership not starting till next week the authorities were a little under-prepared this time

 

[BrummyBoy]

to be honest this scene can be common on all forms of public transport although unless they actually commit a crime then nothing can be done


p.s leeds united are rubbish - just my opinion

 

[222007]

The problem with dry trains is how do you police it? Yes not serving alcohol on trains is one way granted but what about the 20 football fans who turn up with bottles and cans for the train? I'm sorry im not stopping them because i will not put my safety in danger. Are BTP going to check people heading for the platforms? Not likely in my experience (with the exception of Leicester BTP) as whenever i've needed them they rarely show.

I do not for one minute deny this is a good idea i just think it would be very difficult to stop people boarding with alcohol

 

[SouthStand]

Yes it is a problem and they are not really that interested in football. There are some far-right Leeds "fans" who are a disgrace to the species, so it does not surprise me sadly. I hope the family were upgraded to FC.

No-one should have to deal with it but unless we build more high security prisons or stop such people reproducing it will continue to be a major problem....! Neither is going to happen, so it will continue indefinitely...

Ignore, I misread the original post.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

There's always going to be incidents like this, sometimes at predictable times, but often not.
When it is predictable then I would like to see the presence of a little more BTP and TOC Management to provide support to regular on-board staff.

One measure that could be taken if the need arose is the removal of all alcohol from sale (in the shop and on the trolleys). That might be quite easy to implement and might put a limit on the degree of drunkenness.

Another option to consider is a permanent ban on the consuption of alcohol in "the quiet coach". That might provide a peaceful haven for intimidated or irritated passengers. Crew might only want to enforce the rule as far as they felt comfortable to do so, but it would surely be of some help (just as "no smoking" carriages were not fully respected in their early days).

In extreme cases there could be powers given to BTP to confiscate alcohol if a passenger is asked to cease consuming it and refuses. (This would be an exact copy of the powers already given to Police in "alcohol exclusion zones" in certain city areas to limit excessive drinking in public places).

 

[43167]

Its the thing that makes me cring throught the football season. The one thing I would love more than anything is a complete alcohol ban on trains at weekends in the football season.

 

[yorksrob]

Having dry trains serving those routes before and after the match seems reasonable. Perhaps the clubs could be made to provide (and pay for) some of their stewards to travel on the trains to assist the staff?

As for an all out ban, no thanks - I like a drink on longer journeys !

 

[quarella]

The problem with dry trains is how do you police it? Yes not serving alcohol on trains is one way granted but what about the 20 football fans who turn up with bottles and cans for the train? I'm sorry im not stopping them because i will not put my safety in danger. Are BTP going to check people heading for the platforms? Not likely in my experience (with the exception of Leicester BTP) as whenever i've needed them they rarely show.

I do not for one minute deny this is a good idea i just think it would be very difficult to stop people boarding with alcohol

Legal Requirements at Sporting Events
Carriage of passengers to designated Sporting Events Voluntary Guidelines - England and Wales
For some years the coach industry has complied with a voluntary code of practice whereby operators taking passengers to a designated sporting event meet certain guidelines set by the police. This has worked very well, and it has seldom been necessary for a Traffic Commissioner to take any further action against an operator who has contravened the guidelines. Nevertheless the police in England and Wales are concerned that football hooliganism is again on the increase, and have asked the Commissioners to remind PSV operators of the guidelines. This has been done in conjunction with the Confederation of Passenger Transport (CPT).
PSV operators are reminded of the terms of Section 1 (1) of the Sporting Events (Control of Alcohol) Act 1985, as amended by the Public Order Act 1986, which prohibits the carriage of alcohol on a PSV that is being used for the principal purpose of carrying passengers for the whole or part of a journey to or from a designated sporting event. A “designated sporting event” generally means any association football match, whether national or international. The full legal definition of “designated sporting events” may be found in The Sports Grounds and Sporting Events (Designation Order) 1985, as amended by SI 1520/1987. It is an offence for an operator of a PSV (or his servant or agent) knowingly to cause or permit the carriage of alcohol on journeys to which these Regulations apply. In addition to these statutory provisions, the police have asked that operators comply with the following guidelines when conveying passengers to such sporting events: a. Coach operators taking bookings from groups of supporters are to notify the police liaison officer at the destination, at least 48 hours before the event, of the number of supporters expected to travel and the number of coaches booked. b. Coaches are not to stop within 10 miles of the venue either en route to or on departure from the event unless prior agreement is obtained from the local police liaison officer.
32

The above is taken from the VOSA website. http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/archive/N&P%202404%20-%2027th%20July%202010.pdf

No BTP there just one driver having to tell the group of football "supporters" they can't take their beer with them.

 

[Tom B]

I wonder what proportion the football clubs contribute to the costs of dealing with their "fans"? The costs of policing etc must be pretty high.

Although transport staff do need to enforce rules (else there's no point having them - it's not like they are on minimum wage), it is probably unfair to expect one guard to have to deal with a coach full of rowdy football dimwits. Could the football clubs - or the difficult ones - not be obliged to pay for either Police or sia stewards on trains, who are trained and able to throw such prats off?

 

[mindfeeder]

I travel to watch my club (Oxford) on the train on a regular basis. I've seen plenty of my fellow supporters drinking on trains without causing any trouble what so ever. I believe there is a lot of confusion regarding the laws about drinking to and from football games so many football fan just do it anyway.

 

[the sniper]

I thought people might be interested to see what the existing Railway Byelaws say on this subject (I seem to have been quoting these quite a lot recently on this forum ):

4. Intoxication and possession of intoxicating liquor
(1) No person shall enter or remain on the railway where such person is unfit to enter or remain on the railway as a result of being in a state of intoxication.
(2) Where reasonable notice is, or has been, given prohibiting intoxicating liquor on any train service, no person shall have any intoxicating liquor with him on it, or attempt to enter such a train with intoxicating liquor with him.
(3) Where an authorised person reasonably believes that any person is unfit to enter or remain on the railway, or has with him intoxicating liquor contrary to Byelaw 4(2), an authorised person may:
(i) require him to leave the railway; and
(ii) prevent him entering or remaining on the railway until an authorised person is satisfied that he has no intoxicating liquor with him and/or is no longer in an unfit condition.

6. Unacceptable behaviour
(1) No person shall use any threatening, abusive, obscene or offensive language on the railway.
(2) No person shall behave in a disorderly, indecent or offensive manner on the railway.
(8 ) No person shall molest or wilfully interfere with the comfort or convenience of any person on the railway.

Breaking any of these laws means you can be removed from the train/railway property and be liable to pay a fine up to £1,000.

There's also this section.

16. Control of animals
(1) An Operator may refuse carriage or entry to any animal.

Though I don't think it quite extends to football 'fans', unfortunately.

 

[142094]

No BTP there just one driver having to tell the group of football "supporters" they can't take their beer with them.

Problem is that says 'voluntary' not compulsory. What you'll find in practise is that fans (not just football I might add) will find a way of taking beer onto a coach or train, even if it is dry. Unless the police search everyone it will still happen.

The whole subject is part of the bigger problem - the price of alcohol. Until this is addressed this and other offences will still occur.

 

[Donny Dave]

Yes it is a problem and they are not really that interested in football. There are some far-right Leeds "fans" who are a disgrace to the species, so it does not surprise me sadly.

The same could be said for quite a few football clubs, but ironically, some of the best journeys I've had is when I've been talking football with supporters of rival clubs !!!!

However, on matchdays (usually Saturdays), I am in agreement that alcohol sales on trains should be regulated, or even banned, if only to try and discourage the yobbish behavior you get from a minority of fans.

 

[ungreat]

There's always going to be incidents like this, sometimes at predictable times, but often not.
When it is predictable then I would like to see the presence of a little more BTP and TOC Management to provide support to regular on-board staff.

).

You wouldn't see a manager within ten miles of this kind of incident....they vanish when troubles about

 

[reb0118]

IMO Alcohol supply on trains is not a major problem, however, it is the cheap supply of alcohol from shops & off licences which certain passengers consume in vast quantities prior to boarding trains.

When working a train during the football season I always check to see what matches are in the vicinity of the route I will be on - so at least I know what to expect in advance.

 

[Tom B]

You wouldn't see a manager within ten miles of this kind of incident....they vanish when troubles about

Just as, in my experience, guards do! Unfortunately for us lowly fare-payers, we can't vanish...

 

[scotsman]

Anyone wishing to have a look at ScotRail's onboard *ahem* newsletter, will find that they list major sporting events and warn pax that they are "dry". Yet to see it enforced, although I've ended up on coaches to the last few major events I've attended. Interestingly enough, when the Old Firm are playing there are no alcohol bans on the local services around the stadia (Ok, I know the SPT subway serves Ibrox better)

 

[DaveNewcastle]

There's always going to be incidents like this, sometimes at predictable times, but often not.
When it is predictable then I would like to see the presence of a little more BTP and TOC Management to provide support to regular on-board staff.

You wouldn't see a manager within ten miles of this kind of incident....they vanish when troubles about

Just as, in my experience, guards do! Unfortunately for us lowly fare-payers, we can't vanish...

I agree with you both.
Which strengthens my resolve that this is an area where change of working practices may require a revision in TOC's operational Conditions, instigated by Government. One surprise would be that if the requirements of the 2003 Licensing Act (England & Wales only), as applied to pubs and clubs, were applied equally to TOCs, then they'd HAVE to behave more pro-actively (security staff when risks are assessed as high), on-board staff with the powers to eject drunks, etc).
To require TOCs to provide support to staff in times of potential risk isn't going to be resisted by Bob Crowe's anachronistic Union, is it?

 

[313103]

Because they apply to work in public facing roles and, however sadly, a fair proportion of the British public can be unpleasant. Rail staff are at least prety well paid for it compared to some others.

Total ban on drinking on trains and stations?? Don't be so stupid!!

Not ALL Customer facing staff are pretty well paid unless you call £15,700 to £18,000 for barrier staff pretty well paid. My wife works on a checkout for company well known to say 'Every little Helps' and upto 2008 her hourly rate of pay was more then mine and i am higher up in the food chain being a Guard then most of my colleagues who work on barriers or in a booking office.

 

[SouthernCDiv]

In the anglia area, the TOC does (or did do) ban all alchohol on match days on certain trains leading up to the event and after the event, by a considerable number of hours.

 

[quarella]

Problem is that says 'voluntary' not compulsory. What you'll find in practise is that fans (not just football I might add) will find a way of taking beer onto a coach or train, even if it is dry. Unless the police search everyone it will still happen.

The whole subject is part of the bigger problem - the price of alcohol. Until this is addressed this and other offences will still occur.

Voluntary code of practice but read paragraph 2

Section 1 (1) of the Sporting Events (Control of Alcohol) Act 1985, as amended by the Public Order Act 1986, which prohibits the carriage of alcohol on a PSV that is being used for the principal purpose of carrying passengers for the whole or part of a journey to or from a designated sporting event.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen but anyone who does take beer onto a coach to a designated event risks the operator being fined or possibly even losing their operators' licence.

 

[142094]

Voluntary code of practice but read paragraph 2

I'm not saying it doesn't happen but anyone who does take beer onto a coach to a designated event risks the operator being fined or possibly even losing their operators' licence.

I wonder how easy it would be to say that you are just on a day trip to the area and it is purely coincidence that a football match is going on at the same time?