Summer patronage on Highland sleepers

[BRX]

By the "Highland sleepers" I mean the ones to Fort William, Inverness and Aberdeen that leave London as a single train, splitting into separate portions in Edinburgh.

I'm not so sure about the Aberdeen portion but the Fort William and Inverness ones often seem to be fully booked out in the summer season (have just been enquiring for Thurs and Monday night availability in about two weeks' time).

Obviously it's good that they are running full, rather than half empty, but it begs the question of whether they could potentially carry more passengers during the summer.

Does anyone know what the occupancy levels are for these trains, and how it varies through the year?

I know that the total length of the train is determined by the platform length at Euston, but I was just wondering whether the option of running, say, an Aberdeen train plus another, Fort William + Inverness train, has ever been investigated and whether it could be justified.

Perhaps there just isn't enough stock anyway?

 

[A60K]

You've basically hit on it in the last paragraph - there is very little spare stock. I think only around half of the Mk3 sleepers built are still in service. It would be possible to run an occasional ad-hoc extra service with the maintenance spare cars, but it's not something that you could put in the timetable because of the potential need to replace a car for whatever reason.

The other problem would be how to run an extra service - back in the old days sleepers were often combined with day trains for part of their journey, but you simply don't have that option now - otherwise you could potentially attach a couple of extra sleepers to a day train as they do sometimes on the continent. Running it as a separate service altogether wouldn't be economically viable.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

A question here - are all those stored Sleeper cars still present at Long Marston or Kineton or wherever it was, or were they scrapped?

There does seem to have been an increase in demand recently, no doubt helped by the volcanic disruption reminding people of the relaxing way to travel ( Sleeper! ).

Incidentally, FGW have just announced they are increasing berth capacity on the Night Riviera, so at least two of their service spares will no longer be spare, which reduces the number of vehicles available for loan to ScotRail by the same figure.

 

[ChrisTheRef]

Extending the current services would be very difficult as it only just fits on the platform at Euston as it is!

 

[A60K]

Extending the current services would be very difficult as it only just fits on the platform at Euston as it is!

Yep, you would realistically need to run a separate extra service - unless you consider joining/splitting at Wembley, which would be a complete pain to operate.

In the evening you might possibly accept a longer train under special signalling instructions at Euston, given that blocking another platform at that time wouldn't be a major operational problem. Two extra cars could probably be added, and Edinburgh wouldn't be a problem.

Arrival of an over-long train in the morning peak wouldn't be possible though, as there wouldn't be enough platforms spare at Euston to allow blocking of any extra.

 

[BRX]

Yes, as I said in my OP I was thinking of something along the lines of one train that was for Inverness and Fort William, and then another, leaving Euston slightly later, that would be for Aberdeen.

North of Edinburgh the trains could follow the paths that they do currently.

As for combining sleepers with day trains, well, that's kind of what happens at the moment on the Fort William portion. I've used it several times from Fort William to Glasgow.

Another thing - the Night Riviera service has quite a few "day" coaches on it as well as the sleepers, doesn't it? Why isn't the same done on the Scottish ones? Not the same market for it, or is it back to platform lengths again?

 

[455driver]

The only problems would be-
extra loco hire ins
extra drivers
extra guards
extra platform costs
extra track access costs

But apart from that

 

[Peter Mugridge]

BRX, the Night Riviera is currently 4 x Sleeper, 1 x Mk 3 buffet, 1 x Mk 3 TSO and 1 x Mk 3 BFO. Soon to be 5 x Sleeper.

If you were to introduce a 3rd Scotrail Sleeper I'd run them as follows:

1 ) Edinburgh 8 / Glasgow 8 as at present.

2) Inverness 8 / Aberdeen 8 split at Edinburgh.

3) Fort William 6 / Oban 4 / Newcastle 6 split at Edinburgh and Crainlairch. Volumes to vary according to demand as with the present Fort William / Aberdeen portions.

 

[A60K]

I don't think you'll get enough Newcastle patronage to justify one sleeper car even - the day journey time is just too short nowadays to make a sleeper worthwhile for the vast majority of passengers. The same problem killed off the Liverpool/Manchester sleepers - and if Carlisle didn't happen to be a convenient operational stop on the route of the Scottish sleeper that would have long gone as well, even with the 3.5-4 hour journey time to London.

 

[4SRKT]

I wouldn't bother with Oban either. Splitting at Crianlarich would be a nightmare, and a very uneconomic use of a locomotive.

 

[me123]

I wouldn't bother with Oban either. Splitting at Crianlarich would be a nightmare, and a very uneconomic use of a locomotive.

I agree. If you really wanted to serve Oban, you'd be best to connect onto a sprinter service at Crianlarich. Even then, I don't think that would work with the current timetable.

It may be the case that the Highland sleepers in particular could be split into two; one going to Aberdeen (which isn't actually in the Highlands) and another going to Fort William and Inverness. Competitive fares plus the promise of a bed for the night could attract customers off the airlines, and the day time train services are hardly competitive, taking several hours longer than the planes.

 

[BRX]

Yes, Oban wouldn't really make sense because it's already daytime by the time the train passes through - no reason not just to go Crianlarich-Oban on a day train.


It's good to hear that business is up on the Cornwall sleeper - but can anyone tell me what occupancy is like on the Highland ones (which is kind of what this thread was about originally...)?

 

[87031]

Back around the late eighties and early 90s there was a seperate Aberdeen-Euston. Inverness-Euston and i think the Fort William one was also seperate. Add to that there was the Nightrider Glasgow-Euston via B'ham so it can be done but since privatisation it's lucky we have any sleepers at all but good to know that the demand is still there. Did an ALR last year and booked well over a month in advance for Fort William sleepers. Tried to book a Night Riviera a week in advance and they had no births so it dont surprise there getting some extra stock for that.

Also had to change my plans a bit as i couldnt get a birth on the Aberdeen portion either so went to Inverness instead, again i left it late on that one but now would know for future trips to book well in advance.

Be intersting to see what happens when they need to replace the Mk3 sleepers if there is gona be enough money available to build new stock, it seems in the current climate there aint gona be much money invested in the railways with the talk of scrapping electrification schemes etc.
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I wouldn't bother with Oban either. Splitting at Crianlarich would be a nightmare, and a very uneconomic use of a locomotive.

they do need to sort a connecting service for Oban off the Caledonian sleeper though

 

[4SRKT]

Back around the late eighties and early 90s there was a seperate Aberdeen-Euston. Inverness-Euston and i think the Fort William one was also seperate. Add to that there was the Nightrider Glasgow-Euston via B'ham so it can be done but since privatisation it's lucky we have any sleepers at all but good to know that the demand is still there. Did an ALR last year and booked well over a month in advance for Fort William sleepers. Tried to book a Night Riviera a week in advance and they had no births so it dont surprise there getting some extra stock for that.

Also had to change my plans a bit as i couldnt get a birth on the Aberdeen portion either so went to Inverness instead, again i left it late on that one but now would know for future trips to book well in advance.

Be intersting to see what happens when they need to replace the Mk3 sleepers if there is gona be enough money available to build new stock, it seems in the current climate there aint gona be much money invested in the railways with the talk of scrapping electrification schemes etc.
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they do need to sort a connecting service for Oban off the Caledonian sleeper though

The Fort William sleeper was a portion off the Inverness, but it was split off at Mossend Yard where the train had to stop anyway to change locos. The sleepers were hauled into Queen Street, and extra seating accomodation attached there, from where it formed the morning service (05:50) to Fort William. IIRR 2 x sleeper + FO + BFO (Mk IId/e/f) formed the portion detached from the Euston > Inverness. Added at Queen Street were 2 x TSO + BSO (Mk IIa), all hauled by a delightful 37 . The Aberdeen and Edinburgh (and Newcastle) sleepers went from Kings Cross.

Don't forget there were also the Edinburgh/Glasgow > Bristol, and Stranraer > Euston sleepers as well.

 

[87031]

yeah i remember the night caledonian bristol-glasgow/edinburgh often produced a class 50 but there was an Aberdeen-Euston which was normally an 87 from mossend yard...i cant remember when the east coast sleepers where stopped but must of bgeen early 80s?

 

[4SRKT]

yeah i remember the night caledonian bristol-glasgow/edinburgh often produced a class 50 but there was an Aberdeen-Euston which was normally an 87 from mossend yard...i cant remember when the east coast sleepers where stopped but must of bgeen early 80s?

I've got a 1985 timetable in which I'm pretty sure the ECML sleepers are still there. I'll check this evening.

Overnight trains with seating accomodation were just so darn useful. That Edinburgh > Bristol sleeper was a belter, that I used a couple of times. First time I used it it was still Mk I sleepers, and was a class 81 from Carstairs to New Street.

The Glasgow/Edinburgh > Inverness sleeper was also very useful, although it (especially the portion from Glasgow) could be a bit rowdy until about Stirling or Dunblane, to where it was the last train of the day. I remember being woken in the dead of night at a deserted Perth as the portions were joined. Also, on arrival at Inverness at about 04:00 you got turfed out (sleeper passengers didn't) and had to wander the streets until either the 06:35 to Thurso and Wick or 06:55 to Kyle. Ah! Those were the days! You could say that the backdrop to my teenage years was the dimly lit interior of a slightly grimy Mk II TSO!

 

[BRX]

The Fort William sleeper was a portion off the Inverness, but it was split off at Mossend Yard where the train had to stop anyway to change locos. The sleepers were hauled into Queen Street, and extra seating accomodation attached there, from where it formed the morning service (05:50) to Fort William. IIRR 2 x sleeper + FO + BFO (Mk IId/e/f) formed the portion detached from the Euston > Inverness. Added at Queen Street were 2 x TSO + BSO (Mk IIa), all hauled by a delightful 37 . The Aberdeen and Edinburgh (and Newcastle) sleepers went from Kings Cross.

Don't forget there were also the Edinburgh/Glasgow > Bristol, and Stranraer > Euston sleepers as well.

That same 0550 morning service to Fort William is still provided by the seated coach on the sleeper - only you have to get a train from Queen St to Westerton in the suburbs of Glasgow to make the connection.

The Inverness sleeper (and others I guess) had motorail vans too until some time in the 90s (I think) and was hauled by 2x 37s for a while. Once it had been assembled it was a couple of coaches longer than platform 1 or 2 in Inverness station.

 

[4SRKT]

That same 0550 morning service to Fort William is still provided by the seated coach on the sleeper - only you have to get a train from Queen St to Westerton in the suburbs of Glasgow to make the connection.

Although then the 05:50 was one of the three core Glasgow > Fort William trains, rather than an extra. One of only two in winter except on Fridays and Saturdays. On Mondays - Thursdays in the winter the next train to FW after the 05:50 was at 16:50! Get up early if you want to go to FW or don't bother, it would seem.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

They did used to run a Sleeper portion to Oban though didn't they? I have a picture somewhere showing two or three Sleeper cars there, I think this was taken in the early 1990s.


Newcastle... well, travelling from London - especially from across London, you can't get the early train out of KX unless you either stand around at KX all night or pay a fortune for a taxi with a very early start, and even then the 06.15 doesn't get you to Newcastle until 09.36. Either way you'll have had a sleepless night.

Travel the day before - unproductive, and also very expensive to stay overnight in Newcastle.

A Sleeper leaving Euston at, say, 22.15 and running via Edinburgh would probably arrive in Newcastle at around 07.00? It would be the front portion from Euston as well - electric throughout. Going the other way it would stay as the front bit as well.

 

[BRX]

It would be a bit bonkers to run to Newcastle via Edinburgh!

I can't really see a market for sleeper trains to Newcastle I'm afraid. If the only advantage is that it would be cheaper than a hotel room, then they might as well park some sleeper carriages in Newcastle station and hire out berths in them.

Now, a sleeper service from Newcastle to Paris or Brussels ... that would be a different matter

 

[4SRKT]

It would be a bit bonkers to run to Newcastle via Edinburgh!

Not so sure. If you arrive too early, you have to leave sleeping cars lying about for ages in stations to allow people to get a good night's kip. If you ran direct to Newcastle you'd have to run the full 269 miles from the Cross, plus provide an extra loco, crew etc, then park the sleeping cars up until it was a reasonable time to get people out of bed. If you extended a train from Edinburgh, you could drop the Edinburgh sleeping cars there, and run on to Newcastle, arriving at a sensible time for people to get up, having only covered an additional 125 miles, with no extra loco, crew etc.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

And I should have quoted 21.15 for the departure, not 22.15. I'm forgetting what I put in my earlier post!

If the Newcastle is split from the Fort Bill ( let's forget the Oban debate for the moment ) and the Fort Bill departure time is still the same, then you would actually get an arrival at Newcastle at around 06.00 for an 07.00 / 07.30 turf-out time. Stock then goes to Heaton for the day servicing.

Return working boards at around 22.00 fr a 23.00 departure so arounbd 00.30 at Edinburgh, meeting the up Fort Bill which is shunted onto the rear.


The problem with just parking Sleeper cars in Newcastle for overnight accomodation does not address the difficulty of getting to Newcastle in a productive, relaxed, way.

 

[BRX]

You can leave London at 8 or 9pm and be in Newcastle by 11 or 12, and then check into a hotel. The only downside of this is that you leave London what, 15 mins earlier?

It would only make sense if the extra cost of running that portion from London to Edinburgh to Newcastle was less than putting a few people up in a hotel. Seems unlikely. Most people would get a much better night's sleep in a hotel bed in any case.

 

[4SRKT]

My 1985 timetable shows sleepers on the ECML leaving the Cross at:

20:25 to Aberdeen
22:15 to Aberdeen
23:35 to Edinburgh (sleeping cars only)
00:05 to Edinburgh (also doubles as a late normal train serving all main stations as far as York)

On top of this there was a 23:00 departure to Edinburgh via Leeds that conveyed no sleeping cars, arriving in Edinburgh at a cool 07:30! Heady times for duff bashers!

On the WCML departures from Euston were at:

21:00 Inverness/Fort William
21:10 Stranraer Harbour
22:40 Inverness (sleeping cars only)
23:00 Glasgow (via Kilmarnock)
23:30 Edinburgh/Glasgow (sleeping cars conveyed only on Glasgow portion)
23:50 Liverpool/Manchester (split at Stafford)

There were also sleeping cars on the 01:15 Holyhead > Euston, but no sleeper service in the other direction.

Apart from these, the only sleepers I can find are the Edinburgh/Glasgow > Inverness, Edinburgh/Glasgow > Bristol and the ‘Night Riviera’, looking much as it does now.

 

[Sleepy]

My 1985 timetable shows sleepers on the ECML leaving the Cross at:

20:25 to Aberdeen
22:15 to Aberdeen
23:35 to Edinburgh (sleeping cars only)
00:05 to Edinburgh (also doubles as a late normal train serving all main stations as far as York)

On top of this there was a 23:00 departure to Edinburgh via Leeds that conveyed no sleeping cars, arriving in Edinburgh at a cool 07:30! Heady times for duff bashers!

On the WCML departures from Euston were at:

21:00 Inverness/Fort William
21:10 Stranraer Harbour
22:40 Inverness (sleeping cars only)
23:00 Glasgow (via Kilmarnock)
23:30 Edinburgh/Glasgow (sleeping cars conveyed only on Glasgow portion)
23:50 Liverpool/Manchester (split at Stafford)

There were also sleeping cars on the 01:15 Holyhead > Euston, but no sleeper service in the other direction.

Apart from these, the only sleepers I can find are the Edinburgh/Glasgow > Inverness, Edinburgh/Glasgow > Bristol and the ‘Night Riviera’, looking much as it does now.

Seem to remember Scotland - Bristol extended to Penzance at some point before whole service cancelled ?

 

[Greenback]

My 1985 timetable shows sleepers on the ECML leaving the Cross at:

20:25 to Aberdeen
22:15 to Aberdeen
23:35 to Edinburgh (sleeping cars only)
00:05 to Edinburgh (also doubles as a late normal train serving all main stations as far as York)

On top of this there was a 23:00 departure to Edinburgh via Leeds that conveyed no sleeping cars, arriving in Edinburgh at a cool 07:30! Heady times for duff bashers!

On the WCML departures from Euston were at:

21:00 Inverness/Fort William
21:10 Stranraer Harbour
22:40 Inverness (sleeping cars only)
23:00 Glasgow (via Kilmarnock)
23:30 Edinburgh/Glasgow (sleeping cars conveyed only on Glasgow portion)
23:50 Liverpool/Manchester (split at Stafford)

There were also sleeping cars on the 01:15 Holyhead > Euston, but no sleeper service in the other direction.

Apart from these, the only sleepers I can find are the Edinburgh/Glasgow > Inverness, Edinburgh/Glasgow > Bristol and the ‘Night Riviera’, looking much as it does now.

Ah, those were the days, the sleeper to Stranraer! I seem to remember there was a sleeper service to Barrow in the 1980's does anyone know when that one finished?

Seem to remember Scotland - Bristol extended to Penzance at some point before whole service cancelled ?

No, it only got as far as Plymouth, but a Poole portion was introduced after 1985!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

You can leave London at 8 or 9pm and be in Newcastle by 11 or 12, and then check into a hotel. The only downside of this is that you leave London what, 15 mins earlier?

I'd disagree - the cost of the hotel in Newcastle is going to be about equal to paying the fare again whether you travel direct from KX or on a Sleeper via Edinburgh ( assuming the fares are similar to the existing Sleepers beyond Edinburgh, and I don't see why they wouldn't be. ).

So it'll be cheaper by half to go by Sleeper.

And having tried it, I find it's very difficult to get decent hotel accomodation* in Newcastle at less than about 4 - 6 weeks notice, depending on the time of year. The room rates are pretty high compared to other places as well.


*Defined as 3 star or more.

 

[BRX]

I'd disagree - the cost of the hotel in Newcastle is going to be about equal to paying the fare again whether you travel direct from KX or on a Sleeper via Edinburgh ( assuming the fares are similar to the existing Sleepers beyond Edinburgh, and I don't see why they wouldn't be. ).

So it'll be cheaper by half to go by Sleeper.

And having tried it, I find it's very difficult to get decent hotel accomodation* in Newcastle at less than about 4 - 6 weeks notice, depending on the time of year. The room rates are pretty high compared to other places as well.


*Defined as 3 star or more.

I'm talking about real costs though. As far as I'm aware the sleeper services are all quite heavily subsidised.

It would probably be cheaper for Scotrail to bulk buy seats on the late evening East Coast services, and hotel rooms in Newcastle, than to run the extra service.

The very slight added convenience (if any at all) just wouldn't be worth subsidising a service for, I don't reckon.

And I'm interested that you consider a sleeper berth in a shared cabin equivalent to a 3 star hotel room!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My 1985 timetable shows sleepers on the ECML leaving the Cross at:

20:25 to Aberdeen
22:15 to Aberdeen
23:35 to Edinburgh (sleeping cars only)
00:05 to Edinburgh (also doubles as a late normal train serving all main stations as far as York)

On top of this there was a 23:00 departure to Edinburgh via Leeds that conveyed no sleeping cars, arriving in Edinburgh at a cool 07:30! Heady times for duff bashers!

On the WCML departures from Euston were at:

21:00 Inverness/Fort William
21:10 Stranraer Harbour
22:40 Inverness (sleeping cars only)
23:00 Glasgow (via Kilmarnock)
23:30 Edinburgh/Glasgow (sleeping cars conveyed only on Glasgow portion)
23:50 Liverpool/Manchester (split at Stafford)

There were also sleeping cars on the 01:15 Holyhead > Euston, but no sleeper service in the other direction.

Apart from these, the only sleepers I can find are the Edinburgh/Glasgow > Inverness, Edinburgh/Glasgow > Bristol and the ‘Night Riviera’, looking much as it does now.

Did the Fort William one ever have a portion that continued to Mallaig do you know? I'm sure my dad has described using such a service...back in the 50s/60s though I guess.

 

[A60K]

They did used to run a Sleeper portion to Oban though didn't they? I have a picture somewhere showing two or three Sleeper cars there, I think this was taken in the early 1990s.

The only Oban sleepers in the recent past (30 years or so at least) have been when the line to Fort William is blocked, then they usually divert to Oban.

 

[rail-britain]

Does anyone know what the occupancy levels are for these trains, and how it varies through the year?

Perhaps there just isn't enough stock anyway?

A question here - are all those stored Sleeper cars still present at Long Marston or Kineton or wherever it was, or were they scrapped?

I worked on the Aberdeen and Inverness sleepers during the 1990s (InterCity OnBoard Services)
The sleepers were ALWAYS busy on Friday and Sunday, often fully booked (sorry don't know about how far in advance bookings were "full")
There was also a clear difference between Summer and Winter, with midweek services much busier from Easter through to October, the only other busy period being the two weeks before Christmas and three days after New Year

Equally, quite often a mid-week service could have less than 10 passengers on it!
At that time the Inverness and Aberdeen sleepers were complete trains (not adjusted for demand)
However the Inverness and Fort William for the winter timetables when the motorail was withdrawn

I have checked my rolling stock records and I can't find any "spare" sleepers in storage (comparing 1991 to present)
The main issue is that some were scrapped for spares
Several had to have the bogies removed, as the sleepers use a different type of bogie
Again, many of these have been canabillised for spares

I do agree that there probably is demand to separate the sleepers into separate services in the summer, but sadly the railway is no longer that flexible

There were also sleeping cars on the 01:15 Holyhead > Euston, but no sleeper service in the other direction

I saw this a few times at Colwyn Bay on a summer trip (on the last Euston - Holyhead service), it was just one sleeper

ScotRail also had two sleepers, for Glasgow - Aberdeen and Edinburgh - Inverness, which then ran back on the next day service after 08:00