Summer Holiday Special Workings - more potential?

[otomous]

The TOCs' obligations are defined in the franchise contract with the DfT. The TOCs are free to run additional services, but only if no call is made on the DfT to pay for them. In other words extra services have to be self supporting or the TOC itself has to make up the difference.

Is there any argument why the taxpayer should fund holidaymakers?

Aside from economic stimulus to the nation's economy as a whole, it encourages a shift from road to train which is good for the taxpayer in all sorts of ways.

 

[daodao]

The Nottingham-Skegness service is self-contained within the EMT operating area. Other remaining services are within the franchisees' operating areas or not far from it, e.g. the service from Paddington to Pembroke dock is operated by trains based at Swansea.

Many historic summer services were long-distance and would extend far beyond a company's operating area, which creates difficulties that did not exist in the days of BR. In addition, Beeching's evaluation of rail usage dealt particularly harshly with seaside resorts where most journeys originated elsewhere, e.g. Mablethorpe and Minehead.

 

[Bungle965]

Would that be some sort of a motor bus ?

Yes it is the Yorkshire Coastliner, they have new buses which can very much outcompete the train in term of on-board features power points, WiFi etc. However it is still a bus.
The problem that you have with the Whitby line is that there are some serious capacity constraints on the line, so any new services would not be easy to path.
Sam

 

[47802]

Aside from economic stimulus to the nation's economy as a whole, it encourages a shift from road to train which is good for the taxpayer in all sorts of ways.

I expect the cost would be high for a marginal change over and above that which is already provisioned lets not forget some people will still travel by train to their holiday even if there is no direct service, while even if you re-introduced the odd train here and there such as Derby/Nottingham - Great Yarmouth, Leeds - Skegness. Glasgow - Blackpool its pretty limited in the grand scheme of things, and the recent upsurge in UK holidays is reckoned to be partly due to the low rate of the pound against other currencies particularly the Euro which may only be temporary.

Personally I have never been on a holiday in the uk without having my car and cannot imagine doing so, yes I have been on day trips to holiday destinations by train but even that has mainly because I doing it as a rail enthusiast.

 

[Western Lord]

Great Yarmouth used to have Holiday trains from a variety of destinations but obviously now it doesn't even get the London trains, but you could argue electrification is a handicap to this having to Diesel drag, and also Blackpool, obviously Blackpool will be fixed soon so that less of an excuse for Virgin not to run a London Holiday train to Blackpool

Blackpool has never been a holiday destination for Londoners. They have their own far more accessible resorts much closer and usually with better weather. Blackpool overwhelmingly serves the north west and, traditionally, Scotland.

If your idea of a holiday is going to a resort and sitting on the beach for two weeks, then train might be a viable option. However most people who want to do that fly somewhere where the weather is more reliable. In the UK holidays in places like Cornwall and North Wales usually involve travelling around visiting various places and , especially with a family, you simply cannot beat the car for that. The advantage of just loading up at home and driving to your destination, touring around accumulating stuff and then driving home and unloading at your leisure is one that few people would want to give up.

 

[jimm]

Yes it is the Yorkshire Coastliner, they have new buses which can very much outcompete the train in term of on-board features power points, WiFi etc. However it is still a bus.
The problem that you have with the Whitby line is that there are some serious capacity constraints on the line, so any new services would not be easy to path.
Sam

The problem for Whitby is that there isn't a railway to where lots of the potential visitors are - in West Yorkshire - and it's well over three hours all the way round via Middlesbrough, so not much use for a day trip. Scarborough here we come...

Blackpool has never been a holiday destination for Londoners. They have their own far more accessible resorts much closer and usually with better weather. Blackpool overwhelmingly serves the north west and, traditionally, Scotland.

You have missed West Yorkshire off that list. BR continued to run summer-only services from Leeds, Bradford and Halifax to Blackpool over the Copy Pit route from the end of local passenger services in the mid-1960s until the mid-1980s when all-year Leeds-Preston services were revived.

 

[47802]

Blackpool has never been a holiday destination for Londoners. They have their own far more accessible resorts much closer and usually with better weather. Blackpool overwhelmingly serves the north west and, traditionally, Scotland.

If your idea of a holiday is going to a resort and sitting on the beach for two weeks, then train might be a viable option. However most people who want to do that fly somewhere where the weather is more reliable. In the UK holidays in places like Cornwall and North Wales usually involve travelling around visiting various places and , especially with a family, you simply cannot beat the car for that. The advantage of just loading up at home and driving to your destination, touring around accumulating stuff and then driving home and unloading at your leisure is one that few people would want to give up.

If you see my later comments you will see I quite agree regarding the use of the car for a holiday.

No I agree Blackpool has never been a major destination for Londoners there used to be a through train from Scotland on Summer Saturdays which would be easier to introduce post electrification, but whether it would happen is another matter

 

[47802]

The problem for Whitby is that there isn't a railway to where lots of the potential visitors are - in West Yorkshire - and it's well over three hours all the way round via Middlesbrough, so not much use for a day trip. Scarborough here we come...



You have missed West Yorkshire off that list. BR continued to run summer-only services from Leeds, Bradford and Halifax to Blackpool over the Copy Pit route from the end of local passenger services in the mid-1960s until the mid-1980s when all-year Leeds-Preston services were revived.

Indeed but as it has a regular service to Blackpool now anyway it isn't really relevant

I remember buying a day ticket from Leeds to Whitby years ago, the guy in the ticket office told me it was a long route and looked at me as though I was some sort of loon for trying to get to Whitby by train from Leeds, I would add that was in the days before there was a direct TPE service to Middlesbrough so going via Darlington it would have taken even longer than it does now.

 

[Skipness]

I think there might be potential for a holiday service from somewhere like Leeds to Whitby.

This already exists as the Coastliner bus service which is able to run direct rather than follow the round about and slow rail route via Middlesbrough and the Esk Valley

 

[PeterC]

This already exists as the Coastliner bus service which is able to run direct rather than follow the round about and slow rail route via Middlesbrough and the Esk Valley

I am told by people I know in West Yorkshire that they prefer rail to Scarborough then bus for Whitby.

 

[route101]

If you see my later comments you will see I quite agree regarding the use of the car for a holiday.

No I agree Blackpool has never been a major destination for Londoners there used to be a through train from Scotland on Summer Saturdays which would be easier to introduce post electrification, but whether it would happen is another matter

Im sure TPE had a portion that detached at Preston , Glasgow to blackpool .

 

[yorksrob]

I am told by people I know in West Yorkshire that they prefer rail to Scarborough then bus for Whitby.

I found this option preferable on an occasion when I was staying overnight in Whitby and the Whitby branch timings didn't work out.

 

[Ianno87]

Im sure TPE had a portion that detached at Preston , Glasgow to blackpool .

Yes, such a train has run in the pre-350 days.

 

[47802]

Im sure TPE had a portion that detached at Preston , Glasgow to blackpool .

I was thinking much further back than that eg Loco Hauled days, I think there was a Scottish service to Morecambe as well, along with a Scottish service to Scarborough, which I think did get revived as an HST for a few years.

Clearly there might be an opportunity for TPE to run a Scottish - Blackpool Service with the new CAF units.

 

[M7R]

There is 2 big problems with this though.

1). the holiday sites are not right next door to the railway station, so how do you get to the holiday sites? Shuttle buses perhaps?

2). What do you do when you have finally made it to the holiday park with the family and all that goes with them? With a car you are free to have days out.. with no car your either stuck on site, or at the mercy of the local buses (not always cheap.. and can be very sketchy service).

Also want to do some food shopping? How do you get to the super market and then back with all the food?

The sea side specials were a good idea back in the day when most folks stayed in the actual town in hotels, now most stay in some form of caravan park on the edge of town it doesn't work quite so well.

I'm not against the one that run, but I think to make others work well would require some joined up thinking with a local bus operator for some shuttles etc.

 

[70014IronDuke]

There is 2 big problems with this though.

1). the holiday sites are not right next door to the railway station, so how do you get to the holiday sites? Shuttle buses perhaps?

2). What do you do when you have finally made it to the holiday park with the family and all that goes with them? With a car you are free to have days out.. with no car your either stuck on site, or at the mercy of the local buses (not always cheap.. and can be very sketchy service).

Also want to do some food shopping? How do you get to the super market and then back with all the food?
....

I, and I don't think anyone in here, is suggesting we could go back to the days of 6 different trains leaving Waterloo named the Atlantic Coast Express for Torrington, Bude and other exotic destinations. The days of 20 specials arriving at Mablethorpe laden with smiling families from Leicester and Derby behind 4Fs and Flying Pigs will obviously never return.

Even if those resorts had stations today, I accept the car is king for most folks, probably even more so when it comes to holiday trips.

Nonetheless, assuming the contributor commenting on the Skeggie line is on the mark, I repeat: EMT management have found surprising growth on that line in the past 3-4 years. (That's the gist - sorry, I can't remember the exact quote.) And, to their credit, they appear to be taking a very reponsible attitude to it: so instead of throwing their hands in the air when they could not get an extra HST, they made the effort to hire in LHCS last weekend to meet demand.

There are also plenty of reasons for not trying - 47802, for example, has listed a number to support that line of argument in this thread. Some people will go by happily go by bus - but equally some will go to extremes to take the train, even if it takes twice as long to get from Whitby from Leeds via Middlesbrough.

What about Cleethorpes? Would it have the capacity to take more trains if, for example, the Lincoln line were opened earlier on summer Sundays for trains from the east Midlands? Or from the Sheffield area?

 

[jayah]

Hmm!

The cost of getting to and from a UK holiday resort is generally a small fraction of the total cost of the holiday.

The main thing which will encourage more people to holiday in the UK is if climate change (aka 'global warming') makes Skegness at least as attractive regarding the weather as Skiathos.

And how do you collect people living all over the country - as they do - to collect at one point to make trains to the resort viable? At the most a train from one larg(ish) city to a resort could be conceivable.

If one lives on an island, air travel is a fact of life. Get used to it.

Climate change won't make one iota of difference. The weather is so variable year by year decade by decade any change is overwhelmed by weather.

Given the cost of a holiday in the SW is crippled by the cost of decent accommodation and lack of local transport perhaps the TOCs should get back into hotels and car hire?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I don't know what the availability of SWRs 158s & 159s at the weekends but it would be nice to see a Waterloo-Swanage seaside special, giving enough time for people in Swanage, to do things like eat fish & chips, have a ride on the steam railway (joint ticketing possibly), etc

 

[coppercapped]

Climate change won't make one iota of difference. The weather is so variable year by year decade by decade any change is overwhelmed by weather.

Given the cost of a holiday in the SW is crippled by the cost of decent accommodation and lack of local transport perhaps the TOCs should get back into hotels and car hire?

Sorry, it was intended to be mildly humorous as signified by the use of alliteration...

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There is obviously some merit in some proposals - is there not a Coastal Communities Task Force which doshed out cash on sensible schemes (I believe the MV Balmoral got some money from them) to assist economic and social development , subject of course to a business case and tangible benefits.

This could maybe help fund some non commercial service enhancements - much as the SRA funded a 100% increase on the Heart of Wales Sunday service through the Rail Partnership Programme - i.e from 1 train a day to 2 a day (round trips)

 

[xotGD]

People prefer the train over driving for a day trip to the coast because the purpose of their trip is to spend a day on the lash. Likewise folk going to the races.

 

[RichmondCommu]

If you can afford to have a summer holiday overseas you'd have to be mad to take a seaside holiday in the country, especially if you have children. The weather is just not reliable enough.

 

[70014IronDuke]

If you can afford to have a summer holiday overseas you'd have to be mad to take a seaside holiday in the country, especially if you have children. The weather is just not reliable enough.

You think like that. Maybe I think like that. But it's not for everyone. Some people just don't want the hassle of a 'foreign' place, and all the 'risks' that that entails. It takes all sorts. :roll:

 

[Bald Rick]

People prefer the train over driving for a day trip to the coast because the purpose of their trip is to spend a day on the lash. Likewise folk going to the races.

Actually, most people don't. Most people prefer the car as it makes it a lot easier to carry all the things you might on the beach, not least the kids.

Some people prefer the train, and some of those will be 'on the lash', but if you have ever driven to Southend, Bournemouth, Brighton, Blackpool, etc etc on a summer Saturday, you'll see far more people on the road than on the rails.

 

[RichmondCommu]

You think like that. Maybe I think like that. But it's not for everyone. Some people just don't want the hassle of a 'foreign' place, and all the 'risks' that that entails. It takes all sorts. :roll:

Well yes you'll always get a few people who are a little bit backward.

 

[al78]

Climate change won't make one iota of difference. The weather is so variable year by year decade by decade any change is overwhelmed by weather.

Incorrect. You neglect the fact that any trends, even if small, will have natural variability superimposed on them. You neglect the fact that consequences are not necessarily linearly related to impacts (for example, a 5% increase in rainfall could mean the difference between a flood defence holding and failing). You also neglect the fact that the consequences of climate change is not all about the UK (the UK will get off fairly lightly), but about those in the world who live in marginal climates, where even modest changes can render their homelands unviable for permanent habitation. If this happens, they will not sit back and wait to die, they will migrate to those parts of the world which still have equable climates, like ooooh, lets say, NW Europe. I'm sure the UK population will welcome millions of climate refugees with open arms, because we all love immigrants in this country, don't we. We could try to block their entry but bear in mind their primary objective will be survival, and they will fight for it if they have too.

This is of course a worst case scenario, but is one that is sufficiently unpleasant that I would not advocate dismissing anthropogenic climate change as something that is insignificant, just because we may not be directly affected by the consequences.

Anyway, this is off topic for this forum, and I refuse to get involved in the usual tedious mudslinging that often accompanies this subject.

 

[GarethC]

If there is any growth in this area it would have to be coordinated, as it is with airlines with package tours and easy to book.

I would imagine that you could possibly attract more holiday traffic if when booking your hoseasons (as an example) cottage/chalet/static caravan/boat you had the option of travelling by train with pre-booked transfer from station to accommodation as an all in deal - as you would with an airport abroad. It obviously wouldn't work for every location.

Whether the convenience of travel agent (high street/online) booking would take off I don't know - you would probably need a significant investment and advertisement from a tour company. It did happen and still does with eurostar on some sites.

Gareth

 

[bb21]

Well yes you'll always get a few people who are a little bit backward.

You can't call people "backward" for that reason.

Live and let live.

 

[RichmondCommu]

You can't call people "backward" for that reason.

Live and let live.

Well you can when people won't travel somewhere because its 'foreign' or they might get blown up.

We as a nation are not immune from acts of terrorism.