Suggestions for the traditional InterCity services post HS2

[JonathanH]

- 1 tp2h Colchester, Manningtree, Ipswich, Bury St Edmunds, Ely, March, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Retford, Doncaster, York, Darlington, Newcastle, Morpeth, Berwick-upon-Tweed, Dunbar, Edinburgh Waverley, Haymarket, Motherwell, Glasgow Central.
- 1 tp2h Norwich, Ely, March, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Retford, Doncaster, York, Darlington, Newcastle, Alnmouth, Berwick-upon-Tweed, Dunbar, Edinburgh Waverley, Haymarket, Motherwell, Glasgow Central.

It would be better to choose one of these East Anglian destinations and stick with it, then have a connection at Ely from the other.

It would also need to call at Thetford if going to Norwich and various locations if going to Ipswich as it would need to replace the existing EMR / GA services.

Services to new destinations generally need to take the place of another service rather than being additional. However, that is not to suggest that a ECML to East Anglia service night not be better than one from Nottingham, with the 'Nottingham to Grantham fast' going to Kings Cross instead.

 

[HS2isgood]

It would be better to choose one of these East Anglian destinations and stick with it, then have a connection at Ely from the other.

It would also need to call at Thetford if going to Norwich and various locations if going to Ipswich as it would need to replace the existing EMR / GA services.

Services to new destinations generally need to take the place of another service rather than being additional. However, that is not to suggest that a ECML to East Anglia service night not be better than one from Nottingham, with the 'Nottingham to Grantham fast' going to Kings Cross instead.

Oh that's okay, I didn't know how to recast the timetable. Is the 6/7 tph version more reasonable, or the 8/9 is better? I really didn't know which calls to make in East Anglia, I just put what seemed right to me over a map.


PD: about my WCML proposal, ignore it, I will do a second one later. I've thought it's better to have less Trent valley stops and 1 London-Shrewsbury, 1 Liverpool via Brum, 1 Chester, 1 Manchester-Bolton, 1 Blackpool and possibly one more path?

 

[JonathanH]

Oh that's okay, I didn't know how to recast the timetable. Is the 6/7 tph version more reasonable, or the 8/9 is better? I really didn't know which calls to make in East Anglia, I just put what seemed right to me over a map.

I don't think it is a matter of knowing how to recast the timetable. I haven't got a clue about that either. I agree that if there was infinite capacity, running a train from Glasgow to Colchester and Norwich and calling only at principal stations in East Anglia might be a great idea and exactly the sort of thing that moving the London trains to HS2 ought to enable.

However, on the matter of diverting ECML trains to East Anglia, the following have to be noted:

* There has been comment on this forum that Ely North Junction needs remodelling before more trains can be introduced.
* There has also been comment on this forum that there isn't capacity for Ipswich to Peterborough to go hourly yet, let alone overlay a long distance service.
* Is running a train from Norwich or Colchester to Leeds or Glasgow going to stimulate enough demand to justify any extra services east of Peterborough that is sufficient to add an extra service on its own. The commercial reality is that running a through train isn't going to stimulate 50% extra custom between Norwich and Ely for example.
* The reality of the capacity of servicing facilities and platform space at the terminal stations has to be considered as well.

I appreciate that not everyone reads every message. Ideas to run different train services are always interesting to read but they are always better where they acknowledge capacity constraints.

Having noted that, of course, there won't be any possibility of ECML trains being diverted to East Anglia for a good 15-20 years yet as HS2 eastern leg doesn't happen until 2035-2040 so perhaps loads will have changed by then and all of this chat is a bit pre-emptive.

 

[HSTEd]

Given the ECMLs relative paucity of stations north of Peterborough and the not particularly good gauge clearance (making a lot of freight unattractive), it does seem to be a good candidate for a 125mph "quasi Metro".

 

[Kingston Dan]

Given we're talking 2030 here - isn't there a case for looking at completely new services with reopenings/new routes? I have a crayonista thought about a new Spalding/Boston/Louth/Grimsby route (it's flat so should be easier to reinstate/build) and is one of the most deprived and least connected parts of England - an hourly direct service to London would transform it's economic prospects.

 

[HS2isgood]

I don't think it is a matter of knowing how to recast the timetable. I haven't got a clue about that either. I agree that if there was infinite capacity, running a train from Glasgow to Colchester and Norwich and calling only at principal stations in East Anglia might be a great idea and exactly the sort of thing that moving the London trains to HS2 ought to enable.

However, on the matter of diverting ECML trains to East Anglia, the following have to be noted:

* There has been comment on this forum that Ely North Junction needs remodelling before more trains can be introduced.
* There has also been comment on this forum that there isn't capacity for Ipswich to Peterborough to go hourly yet, let alone overlay a long distance service.
* Is running a train from Norwich or Colchester to Leeds or Glasgow going to stimulate enough demand to justify any extra services east of Peterborough that is sufficient to add an extra service on its own. The commercial reality is that running a through train isn't going to stimulate 50% extra custom between Norwich and Ely for example.
* The reality of the capacity of servicing facilities and platform space at the terminal stations has to be considered as well.

I appreciate that not everyone reads every message. Ideas to run different train services are always interesting to read but they are always better where they acknowledge capacity constraints.

Having noted that, of course, there won't be any possibility of ECML trains being diverted to East Anglia for a good 15-20 years yet as HS2 eastern leg doesn't happen until 2035-2040 so perhaps loads will have changed by then and all of this chat is a bit pre-emptive.

I thought that Ely North Junction would have been dealt with by then, bit maybe it is not a good idea to run that kind of service anyways.

Regarding the West Coast, I don't think that there are any crossovers anymore from the centre tracks (Fast Lines) to the outer tracks (Slow Lines) along the ex Trent Valley Railway between Nuneaton, Tamworth, Lichfield TV, and Rugeley TV. In other words, if calling Tamworth, you might as well call Lichfield and Rugeley TV as well while the train is on the Slow Lines. Perhaps The Planner could confirm if this is the case or not?

Also, how does Hartford to/from Warrington BQ and Preston feature in your suggestion above?

Oh, so the smaller Trent Valley stops will have to go. What do you mean by Hartford to Warrington? Also, which is the fastest way to Wrexham, via Shrewsbury or via Chester?

Avanti West Coast (classic part)

- 1 tph Euston, Watford Junction, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham New Street, Wolverhampton, Telford Central, Wellington, Shrewsbury.
- 1 tph Euston, Watford Junction, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Crewe, Winsford, Hartford, Acton Bridge, Runcorn, Liverpool South Parkway, Liverpool Moor Street. (is a Penkridge stop necessary?)

- 1 tph Euston, Watford Junction, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton, Stafford, Crewe, Wilmslow, Stockport, Manchester Picadilly (12-13, even if Castlefield is not an ideal routing for LD services), Manchester Oxford Road, Deansgate, Salford Crescent, Bolton, Darwen, Blackburn. (giving the Ribble Valley both a semi-fast service to Manchester and a direct London service)
- 1 tph Euston, Watford Junction, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton, Stafford, Crewe, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western, Preston, Kirkham & Wesham, Poulton-le-Fylde, Blackpool North.
- 1 tp2h Euston, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Stafford, Crewe, Chester, Shotton, Flint, Prestatyn, Rhyl, Colwyn Bay, Llandudno Junction, Bangor, Holyhead.
- 1 tp2h Euston, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Stafford, Crewe, Chester, Wrexham General.

CrossCountry: This will be another TOC that will be greatly impacted by HS2, as it will lose most longer through traffic. If there was finally a SW to HS2 bypass, it would see a rather different service than this one. Some services would be split at Birmingham, with some moved to Moor Street to avoid congestion in New Street. I personally would regularise extensions.

- 1 tph (Penzance, St Erth, Hayle, Camborne, Redruth, Truro, St Austell, Par, Lostwithiel, Bodmin Parkway, Liskeard every 2 hours), Plymouth, Totnes, Newton Abbot, Exeter St Davids, Tiverton Parkway, Taunton, Bristol Temple Meads, Bristol Parkway, Cheltenham Spa, Birmingham New Street, Sandwell and Dudley, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Crewe.
- 1 tph (Paignton, Torquay, Newton Abbot, Teignmouth, Dawlish every 2 hours), Exeter St Davids, Tiverton Parkway, Taunton, (Weston-super-Mare if it terminates in Exeter), Bristol Temple Meads, Bristol Parkway, Cheltenham Spa, University, Birmingham New Street, Wilnecote, Tamworth, Burton-on-Trent, (Willington every 2 hours), Derby, Long Eaton, Beeston, Nottingham.
- 1 tph Bournemouth, Brockenhurst, Southampton Central, Southampton Airport Parkway, Winchester, Basingstoke, Reading, Oxford, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Stoke-on-Trent, Macclesfield, Stockport, Manchester Picadilly.
- 1 tp2h Southampton Central, Southhampton Airport Parkway, Winchester, Basingstoke, Reading, Oxford, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Solihull, Birmingham Moor Street.
- 1 tp2h Brighton, Haywards Heath, Three Bridges, Gatwick Airport, Redhill, Guildford, Wokingham, Reading, Oxford, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Solihull, Birmingham Moor Street.
- 1 tph (Swansea, Port Talbot Parkway, Bridgend every 2 hours), Cardiff Central, Newport, Chepstow, Gloucester, Cheltenham Spa, Birmingham New Street, Tamworth, Burton-on-Trent, Derby, Long Eaton, Beeston, Nottingham.

- 1 tph Birmingham Curzon Street, East Midlands Hub, Leeds.
- 1 tph Birmingham Curzon Street, East Midlands Hub, Leeds, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle.
- 1 tph Birmingham Curzon Street, East Midlands Hub, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle.

- 1 tph Birmingham New Street, Coleshill Parkway, Nuneaton, Leicester, Melton Mowbray, Oakham, Stamford, Peterborough, March, Ely, Cambridge, Audley End, Stansted Airport.
- 1 tph Birmingham New Street, Water Orton (every 2 hours), Coleshill Parkway, Nuneaton, Hinckley, Narborough, South Wigston, Leicester.
- 1 tph Birmingham New Street, Tamworth, Burton-on-Trent, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Doncaster, York.

 

[irish_rail]

I thought that Ely North Junction would have been dealt with by then, bit maybe it is not a good idea to run that kind of service anyways.


Oh, so the smaller Trent Valley stops will have to go. What do you mean by Hartford to Warrington? Also, which is the fastest way to Wrexham, via Shrewsbury or via Chester?

Avanti West Coast (classic part)

- 1 tph Euston, Watford Junction, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham New Street, Wolverhampton, Telford Central, Wellington, Shrewsbury.
- 1 tph Euston, Watford Junction, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Crewe, Winsford, Hartford, Acton Bridge, Runcorn, Liverpool South Parkway, Liverpool Moor Street. (is a Penkridge stop necessary?)

- 1 tph Euston, Watford Junction, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton, Stafford, Crewe, Wilmslow, Stockport, Manchester Picadilly (12-13, even if Castlefield is not an ideal routing for LD services), Manchester Oxford Road, Deansgate, Salford Crescent, Bolton, Darwen, Blackburn. (giving the Ribble Valley both a semi-fast service to Manchester and a direct London service)
- 1 tph Euston, Watford Junction, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton, Stafford, Crewe, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western, Preston, Kirkham & Wesham, Poulton-le-Fylde, Blackpool North.
- 1 tp2h Euston, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Stafford, Crewe, Chester, Shotton, Flint, Prestatyn, Rhyl, Colwyn Bay, Llandudno Junction, Bangor, Holyhead.
- 1 tp2h Euston, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Stafford, Crewe, Chester, Wrexham General.

CrossCountry: This will be another TOC that will be greatly impacted by HS2, as it will lose most longer through traffic. If there was finally a SW to HS2 bypass, it would see a rather different service than this one. Some services would be split at Birmingham, with some moved to Moor Street to avoid congestion in New Street. I personally would regularise extensions.

- 1 tph (Penzance, St Erth, Hayle, Camborne, Redruth, Truro, St Austell, Par, Lostwithiel, Bodmin Parkway, Liskeard every 2 hours), Plymouth, Totnes, Newton Abbot, Exeter St Davids, Tiverton Parkway, Taunton, Bristol Temple Meads, Bristol Parkway, Cheltenham Spa, Birmingham New Street, Sandwell and Dudley, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Crewe.
- 1 tph (Paignton, Torquay, Newton Abbot, Teignmouth, Dawlish every 2 hours), Exeter St Davids, Tiverton Parkway, Taunton, (Weston-super-Mare if it terminates in Exeter), Bristol Temple Meads, Bristol Parkway, Cheltenham Spa, University, Birmingham New Street, Wilnecote, Tamworth, Burton-on-Trent, (Willington every 2 hours), Derby, Long Eaton, Beeston, Nottingham.
- 1 tph Bournemouth, Brockenhurst, Southampton Central, Southampton Airport Parkway, Winchester, Basingstoke, Reading, Oxford, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Stoke-on-Trent, Macclesfield, Stockport, Manchester Picadilly.
- 1 tp2h Southampton Central, Southhampton Airport Parkway, Winchester, Basingstoke, Reading, Oxford, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Solihull, Birmingham Moor Street.
- 1 tp2h Brighton, Haywards Heath, Three Bridges, Gatwick Airport, Redhill, Guildford, Wokingham, Reading, Oxford, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Solihull, Birmingham Moor Street.
- 1 tph (Swansea, Port Talbot Parkway, Bridgend every 2 hours), Cardiff Central, Newport, Chepstow, Gloucester, Cheltenham Spa, Birmingham New Street, Tamworth, Burton-on-Trent, Derby, Long Eaton, Beeston, Nottingham.

- 1 tph Birmingham Curzon Street, East Midlands Hub, Leeds.
- 1 tph Birmingham Curzon Street, East Midlands Hub, Leeds, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle.
- 1 tph Birmingham Curzon Street, East Midlands Hub, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle.

- 1 tph Birmingham New Street, Coleshill Parkway, Nuneaton, Leicester, Melton Mowbray, Oakham, Stamford, Peterborough, March, Ely, Cambridge, Audley End, Stansted Airport.
- 1 tph Birmingham New Street, Water Orton (every 2 hours), Coleshill Parkway, Nuneaton, Hinckley, Narborough, South Wigston, Leicester.
- 1 tph Birmingham New Street, Tamworth, Burton-on-Trent, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Doncaster, York.

Trouble with your proposed XC network is the south west loses all direct connections to the north. Plymouth for example would not be directly connected to a single city North of Birmingham, compared with over 10 cities at present.
Not exactly an improvement, and I thought Hs2 was supposed to be great for everybody?

 

[Purple Orange]

Trouble with your proposed XC network is the south west loses all direct connections to the north. Plymouth for example would not be directly connected to a single city North of Birmingham, compared with over 10 cities at present.
Not exactly an improvement, and I thought Hs2 was supposed to be great for everybody?

If travelling from the south west to Newcastle, would you take the far slower direct train or save time by changing at Curzon Street? If XC is still in existence and the eastern branch is built, XC will likely see more stops between Birmingham & Leeds, making the overall journey time much slower than today. I’d say if XC continues to exist it will only be appealing to short distance passengers and people who have the luxury of time.

 

[HSTEd]

Is it possible to move all SW cross-country trains to Moor Street for the shortest possible interchange?

 

[The Planner]

Is it possible to move all SW cross-country trains to Moor Street for the shortest possible interchange?

Providing Kings Norton is grade separated and the Bordesley chords and extra Moor St platforms are built, then probably. I don't think that is the plan though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Mar 2021 ==

I thought that Ely North Junction would have been dealt with by then, bit maybe it is not a good idea to run that kind of service anyways.


Oh, so the smaller Trent Valley stops will have to go. What do you mean by Hartford to Warrington? Also, which is the fastest way to Wrexham, via Shrewsbury or via Chester?

Avanti West Coast (classic part)

- 1 tph Euston, Watford Junction, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham New Street, Wolverhampton, Telford Central, Wellington, Shrewsbury.
- 1 tph Euston, Watford Junction, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Crewe, Winsford, Hartford, Acton Bridge, Runcorn, Liverpool South Parkway, Liverpool Moor Street. (is a Penkridge stop necessary?)

- 1 tph Euston, Watford Junction, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton, Stafford, Crewe, Wilmslow, Stockport, Manchester Picadilly (12-13, even if Castlefield is not an ideal routing for LD services), Manchester Oxford Road, Deansgate, Salford Crescent, Bolton, Darwen, Blackburn. (giving the Ribble Valley both a semi-fast service to Manchester and a direct London service)
- 1 tph Euston, Watford Junction, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton, Stafford, Crewe, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western, Preston, Kirkham & Wesham, Poulton-le-Fylde, Blackpool North.
- 1 tp2h Euston, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Stafford, Crewe, Chester, Shotton, Flint, Prestatyn, Rhyl, Colwyn Bay, Llandudno Junction, Bangor, Holyhead.
- 1 tp2h Euston, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Stafford, Crewe, Chester, Wrexham General.

CrossCountry: This will be another TOC that will be greatly impacted by HS2, as it will lose most longer through traffic. If there was finally a SW to HS2 bypass, it would see a rather different service than this one. Some services would be split at Birmingham, with some moved to Moor Street to avoid congestion in New Street. I personally would regularise extensions.

- 1 tph (Penzance, St Erth, Hayle, Camborne, Redruth, Truro, St Austell, Par, Lostwithiel, Bodmin Parkway, Liskeard every 2 hours), Plymouth, Totnes, Newton Abbot, Exeter St Davids, Tiverton Parkway, Taunton, Bristol Temple Meads, Bristol Parkway, Cheltenham Spa, Birmingham New Street, Sandwell and Dudley, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Crewe.
- 1 tph (Paignton, Torquay, Newton Abbot, Teignmouth, Dawlish every 2 hours), Exeter St Davids, Tiverton Parkway, Taunton, (Weston-super-Mare if it terminates in Exeter), Bristol Temple Meads, Bristol Parkway, Cheltenham Spa, University, Birmingham New Street, Wilnecote, Tamworth, Burton-on-Trent, (Willington every 2 hours), Derby, Long Eaton, Beeston, Nottingham.
- 1 tph Bournemouth, Brockenhurst, Southampton Central, Southampton Airport Parkway, Winchester, Basingstoke, Reading, Oxford, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Stoke-on-Trent, Macclesfield, Stockport, Manchester Picadilly.
- 1 tp2h Southampton Central, Southhampton Airport Parkway, Winchester, Basingstoke, Reading, Oxford, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Solihull, Birmingham Moor Street.
- 1 tp2h Brighton, Haywards Heath, Three Bridges, Gatwick Airport, Redhill, Guildford, Wokingham, Reading, Oxford, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Solihull, Birmingham Moor Street.
- 1 tph (Swansea, Port Talbot Parkway, Bridgend every 2 hours), Cardiff Central, Newport, Chepstow, Gloucester, Cheltenham Spa, Birmingham New Street, Tamworth, Burton-on-Trent, Derby, Long Eaton, Beeston, Nottingham.

- 1 tph Birmingham Curzon Street, East Midlands Hub, Leeds.
- 1 tph Birmingham Curzon Street, East Midlands Hub, Leeds, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle.
- 1 tph Birmingham Curzon Street, East Midlands Hub, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle.

- 1 tph Birmingham New Street, Coleshill Parkway, Nuneaton, Leicester, Melton Mowbray, Oakham, Stamford, Peterborough, March, Ely, Cambridge, Audley End, Stansted Airport.
- 1 tph Birmingham New Street, Water Orton (every 2 hours), Coleshill Parkway, Nuneaton, Hinckley, Narborough, South Wigston, Leicester.
- 1 tph Birmingham New Street, Tamworth, Burton-on-Trent, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Doncaster, York.

Why does Birmingham International only get 1tph? that is insane, it will still have a decent amount of park and ride traffic to other stations on the WCML and if other trains are going through there you would stop them. You would likely stop them at Galton Bridge if it was decided to extend the platforms. Doubt you would go to Blackburn. Tamworth would also likely get some stops.

Why would XC terminate at Crewe? No XC services will go via Solihull or into Moor St from that direction. You have lost any direct S-East Mids connectivity now with this plan. You would keep that York service joined up with something else. Bear in mind the Midlands rail hub aspirations to have more local New St to Tamworth/Nuneaton services, they will either compliment or remove XC stops.

I zoned out once I saw Brighton and Swansea....

 

[PTR 444]

Is it possible to move all SW cross-country trains to Moor Street for the shortest possible interchange?

I was thinking this would be better for the South Coast service as post-HS2 there will be no need to run beyond Birmingham. Moor Street is closer to Curzon Street for HS2 interchange and diverting the service away from New Street would free up platforms there for more local trains. I’d run 1tph Moor Street - Bournemouth calling at Solihull, Warwick, Leamington Spa and all existing XC calls beyond there, and 1tph Moor Street - Oxford calling at Solihull and all stations beyond Dorridge.

Trains from Bristol would probably need to continue beyond Birmingham due to weaker connectivity with HS2, therefore I would keep Temple Meads - Manchester. Also there will be no direct HS2 service between Birmingham and Sheffield so it would make sense to keep the 2tph between those two places. This could consist of 1tph Plymouth - Sheffield and 1tph Birmingham - Hull via Doncaster.

 

[A0]

I would like the MML InterCity calling Bedford (Midland) for interchange with East-West Rail, but I am unsure if that would mean altering the Thameslink services and many others south of the Thames.

But that's pointless.

If you're coming from London you'd use the most appropriate terminus to travel from to get to your destination - you're not going to do St Pancras to Oxford changing at Bedford. If you're travelling from intermediate TL stations, you'd use TL to Bedford.

From the north the Corby services will provide a link. Further out than that, so Leicester first, it already has a link to the ECML at Peterboro and WCML at Nuneaton. Go further north again and Nottingham can get to the ECML at Grantham, plus has services ontobEly, from which Cambridge is easy. Going west there's a regular service to Birmingham.

This whole "Inter City" services need to serve Bedford for interchange to EWR is a complete red herring.

 

[HSTEd]

Well ultimately if OOC gets GWML platforms, we get interchange with HS2 and South West services for free.

 

[adrock1976]

But that's pointless.

If you're coming from London you'd use the most appropriate terminus to travel from to get to your destination - you're not going to do St Pancras to Oxford changing at Bedford. If you're travelling from intermediate TL stations, you'd use TL to Bedford.

From the north the Corby services will provide a link. Further out than that, so Leicester first, it already has a link to the ECML at Peterboro and WCML at Nuneaton. Go further north again and Nottingham can get to the ECML at Grantham, plus has services ontobEly, from which Cambridge is easy. Going west there's a regular service to Birmingham.

This whole "Inter City" services need to serve Bedford for interchange to EWR is a complete red herring.

I noticed you have only commented from a London perspective regarding East-West.

What about the East Midlands/Yorkshire Region to Bletchley/Milton Keynes/Oxford? There is no comment about that whatsoever at all.

PS It was not me that suggested InterCity calls at Bedford - I respond to somebody else who mentioned that.

 

[The Planner]

I was thinking this would be better for the South Coast service as post-HS2 there will be no need to run beyond Birmingham. Moor Street is closer to Curzon Street for HS2 interchange and diverting the service away from New Street would free up platforms there for more local trains. I’d run 1tph Moor Street - Bournemouth calling at Solihull, Warwick, Leamington Spa and all existing XC calls beyond there, and 1tph Moor Street - Oxford calling at Solihull and all stations beyond Dorridge.

Trains from Bristol would probably need to continue beyond Birmingham due to weaker connectivity with HS2, therefore I would keep Temple Meads - Manchester. Also there will be no direct HS2 service between Birmingham and Sheffield so it would make sense to keep the 2tph between those two places. This could consist of 1tph Plymouth - Sheffield and 1tph Birmingham - Hull via Doncaster.

See my post above, even with HS2 XC will go via Coventry. The removal of that path via Solihull has already been ear marked for a Banbury at a minimum to Birmingham service.

 

[adrock1976]

I thought that Ely North Junction would have been dealt with by then, bit maybe it is not a good idea to run that kind of service anyways.


Oh, so the smaller Trent Valley stops will have to go. What do you mean by Hartford to Warrington? Also, which is the fastest way to Wrexham, via Shrewsbury or via Chester?

Avanti West Coast (classic part)

- 1 tph Euston, Watford Junction, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham New Street, Wolverhampton, Telford Central, Wellington, Shrewsbury.
- 1 tph Euston, Watford Junction, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Crewe, Winsford, Hartford, Acton Bridge, Runcorn, Liverpool South Parkway, Liverpool Moor Street. (is a Penkridge stop necessary?)

- 1 tph Euston, Watford Junction, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton, Stafford, Crewe, Wilmslow, Stockport, Manchester Picadilly (12-13, even if Castlefield is not an ideal routing for LD services), Manchester Oxford Road, Deansgate, Salford Crescent, Bolton, Darwen, Blackburn. (giving the Ribble Valley both a semi-fast service to Manchester and a direct London service)
- 1 tph Euston, Watford Junction, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton, Stafford, Crewe, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western, Preston, Kirkham & Wesham, Poulton-le-Fylde, Blackpool North.
- 1 tp2h Euston, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Stafford, Crewe, Chester, Shotton, Flint, Prestatyn, Rhyl, Colwyn Bay, Llandudno Junction, Bangor, Holyhead.
- 1 tp2h Euston, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Stafford, Crewe, Chester, Wrexham General.

CrossCountry: This will be another TOC that will be greatly impacted by HS2, as it will lose most longer through traffic. If there was finally a SW to HS2 bypass, it would see a rather different service than this one. Some services would be split at Birmingham, with some moved to Moor Street to avoid congestion in New Street. I personally would regularise extensions.

- 1 tph (Penzance, St Erth, Hayle, Camborne, Redruth, Truro, St Austell, Par, Lostwithiel, Bodmin Parkway, Liskeard every 2 hours), Plymouth, Totnes, Newton Abbot, Exeter St Davids, Tiverton Parkway, Taunton, Bristol Temple Meads, Bristol Parkway, Cheltenham Spa, Birmingham New Street, Sandwell and Dudley, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Crewe.
- 1 tph (Paignton, Torquay, Newton Abbot, Teignmouth, Dawlish every 2 hours), Exeter St Davids, Tiverton Parkway, Taunton, (Weston-super-Mare if it terminates in Exeter), Bristol Temple Meads, Bristol Parkway, Cheltenham Spa, University, Birmingham New Street, Wilnecote, Tamworth, Burton-on-Trent, (Willington every 2 hours), Derby, Long Eaton, Beeston, Nottingham.
- 1 tph Bournemouth, Brockenhurst, Southampton Central, Southampton Airport Parkway, Winchester, Basingstoke, Reading, Oxford, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Stoke-on-Trent, Macclesfield, Stockport, Manchester Picadilly.
- 1 tp2h Southampton Central, Southhampton Airport Parkway, Winchester, Basingstoke, Reading, Oxford, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Solihull, Birmingham Moor Street.
- 1 tp2h Brighton, Haywards Heath, Three Bridges, Gatwick Airport, Redhill, Guildford, Wokingham, Reading, Oxford, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Solihull, Birmingham Moor Street.
- 1 tph (Swansea, Port Talbot Parkway, Bridgend every 2 hours), Cardiff Central, Newport, Chepstow, Gloucester, Cheltenham Spa, Birmingham New Street, Tamworth, Burton-on-Trent, Derby, Long Eaton, Beeston, Nottingham.

- 1 tph Birmingham Curzon Street, East Midlands Hub, Leeds.
- 1 tph Birmingham Curzon Street, East Midlands Hub, Leeds, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle.
- 1 tph Birmingham Curzon Street, East Midlands Hub, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle.

- 1 tph Birmingham New Street, Coleshill Parkway, Nuneaton, Leicester, Melton Mowbray, Oakham, Stamford, Peterborough, March, Ely, Cambridge, Audley End, Stansted Airport.
- 1 tph Birmingham New Street, Water Orton (every 2 hours), Coleshill Parkway, Nuneaton, Hinckley, Narborough, South Wigston, Leicester.
- 1 tph Birmingham New Street, Tamworth, Burton-on-Trent, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Doncaster, York.

A couple of points:

Regarding Blackburn, most passengers would travel via Preston. Also, the present service pattern through the Castlefield Corridor in Manchester is having a government consultation so as to improve reliability (the poor reliability has not been helped with every post town on both sides of the Pennines wanting direct trains to Manchester Piccadilly every 60 minutes).

Also, for the Yorkshire/North East Region, both Wakefield and Doncaster are missing, even though HS2 does not go anywhere near.

Regarding Brighton - Birmingham, the Brighton - Three Bridges - Gatwick - Redhill is a heavily trafficked line with a wide range of calling patterns, and is twin track (unlikely to be quad due to the geology). Also, the Redhill - Reading section is/was planned to have its frequency increased, and with the common section with the London Waterloo - Reading services between Wokingham and Reading, the Waterloo - Reading is planned to be doubled in frequency from every 30 minutes to every 15 minutes.

Being as I am originally from the West Midlands, for those who want to go on a trip to the seaside, it is either North Wales, Blackpool, or the closest and most suitable for senior citizens and those with mobility issues is Weston Super Mare (debatable if you can see the sea or not as it is far out).

 

[A0]

I noticed you have only commented from a London perspective regarding East-West.

What about the East Midlands/Yorkshire Region to Bletchley/Milton Keynes/Oxford? There is no comment about that whatsoever at all.

PS It was not me that suggested InterCity calls at Bedford - I respond to somebody else who mentioned that.

Erm, I mentioned both Leicester and Nottingham...... East Mids / Yorkshire have links to Birmingham / Trent Valley thence to Oxford or MK already.

 

[HSTEd]

Is 5 cars the shortest you can make an 80x series unit?
Could we, for example, operate 3 or 4-car units?

That would enable interesting portion working opportunities.

 

[JonathanH]

Is 5 cars the shortest you can make an 80x series unit?
Could we, for example, operate 3 or 4-car units?

That would enable interesting portion working opportunities.

Somewhat too much non-seating space if you go below 5-cars on a unit with a kitchen and a long pointy end, not to mention universal toilets and vestibules.

The 80x units have their generator units in the intermediate coaches but I assume that the portion working you envisage would be on secondary routes or branches where full power isn't needed so a 33% reduction in power might be feasible to still power a train only 20% less heavy.

Is 'interesting portion working' the sort of thing that should be encouraged when the railway has been generally trying to move away from it (and 'everywhere to everywhere' operations) for reasons of reliability and punctuality?

 

[A0]

Is 5 cars the shortest you can make an 80x series unit?
Could we, for example, operate 3 or 4-car units?

That would enable interesting portion working opportunities.

Portion working isn't popular because it causes problems, particularly if services are being joined - a late inbound portion screws the rest of the journey up.

IIRC London Midland used to have a 10 min wait at Northampton for the Crewe services (when they ran that way) because they joined with an inbound Birmingham service.

 

[Purple Orange]

It seems to me that many of the services being suggested by people are not actually intercity, but rather they are semi-fast commuter services over a very long distance. Post HS2 phase 2b, I'd expect all WCML services out of Euston to be modelled on a London Northwestern basis with all stock being a doors at 1/3 & 2/3 positions. XC services from Bournemouth to terminate at Birmingham. XC services from the south west should continue as they are but at least 6-car trains. LNER services should continue as they are, but rather than Edinburgh, Newcastle and Leeds as destinations, it should be more for Hull, Middlesbrough, and Bradford via Wakefield.

 

[HSTEd]

It seems to me that many of the services being suggested by people are not actually intercity, but rather they are semi-fast commuter services over a very long distance. Post HS2 phase 2b, I'd expect all WCML services out of Euston to be modelled on a London Northwestern basis with all stock being a doors at 1/3 & 2/3 positions. XC services from Bournemouth to terminate at Birmingham. XC services from the south west should continue as they are but at least 6-car trains. LNER services should continue as they are, but rather than Edinburgh, Newcastle and Leeds as destinations, it should be more for Hull, Middlesbrough, and Bradford via Wakefield.

Why on earth would people take a train from Bradford to London that takes 3hr20-3hr40 when the train from central Leeds does it in 80 minutes?
With a reasonable connection window at Leeds its going to be an hour or more slower.

Sure it's a direct train but there are limits to what people will accept for the benefit of a direct train.

Also theres not much reason to make the South West XC trains go beyond Birmingham when they will get crushed on journey time by simply changing in Birmingham or at Old Oak Common.

 

[HS2isgood]

Providing Kings Norton is grade separated and the Bordesley chords and extra Moor St platforms are built, then probably. I don't think that is the plan though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Mar 2021 ==


Why does Birmingham International only get 1tph? that is insane, it will still have a decent amount of park and ride traffic to other stations on the WCML and if other trains are going through there you would stop them. You would likely stop them at Galton Bridge if it was decided to extend the platforms. Doubt you would go to Blackburn. Tamworth would also likely get some stops.

Why would XC terminate at Crewe? No XC services will go via Solihull or into Moor St from that direction. You have lost any direct S-East Mids connectivity now with this plan. You would keep that York service joined up with something else. Bear in mind the Midlands rail hub aspirations to have more local New St to Tamworth/Nuneaton services, they will either compliment or remove XC stops.

I zoned out once I saw Brighton and Swansea....

Yeah, the best way would probably be to have everything stop at International, I just thought it would be a bit too slow for Wolves and Shrewsbury, but the simple stopping pattern is a good idea. Do you think 5 tph is okay for the WCML? I removed Tamworth Low Level because someone told me it didn't have platforms in the fasts, but if Avanti currently calls there, it'd be okay. (This is Avanti only, there's LNWR too)

And yeah, the Crewe one was a dumb idea, it'd be better to merge it to Derby. If the central XC corridor has enough demand, it could keep 4 tph (2 Leeds, 2 Nottingham), with HS2 taking the Newcastle/Edinburgh part. How many tph will the northern ECML (Newcastle-Edinburgh) need once all the LDs are via HS2? Moor Street is better than New Street post-HS2 I guess. I've spotted another mistake: Wolverhampton to Scotland through a permitted route takes either 2 changes or a long detour to Manchester.

A couple of points:

Regarding Blackburn, most passengers would travel via Preston. Also, the present service pattern through the Castlefield Corridor in Manchester is having a government consultation so as to improve reliability (the poor reliability has not been helped with every post town on both sides of the Pennines wanting direct trains to Ringway every 60 minutes).

Also, for the Yorkshire/North East Region, both Wakefield and Doncaster are missing, even though HS2 does not go anywhere near.

Regarding Brighton - Birmingham, the Brighton - Three Bridges - Gatwick - Redhill is a heavily trafficked line with a wide range of calling patterns, and is twin track (unlikely to be quad due to the geology). Also, the Redhill - Reading section is/was planned to have its frequency increased, and with the common section with the London Waterloo - Reading services between Wokingham and Reading, the Waterloo - Reading is planned to be doubled in frequency from every 30 minutes to every 15 minutes.

Being as I am originally from the West Midlands, for those who want to go on a trip to the seaside, it is either North Wales, Blackpool, or the closest and most suitable for senior citizens and those with mobility issues is Weston Super Mare (debatable if you can see the sea or not as it is far out).

Yeah, the Blackburn one was not a good idea, I just thought it would create more direct connections to London. It'd be better to just terminate it at Picadilly shed. Will there be the market for a Manchester service via the Trent Valley post-HS2? I don't know, Milton Keynes, Rugby and Nuneaton should generate enough traffic. Chester/Holyhead and Blackpool will still need services, though. The Brighton was thought as a reinstatement of the old XC services that were dropped ages ago, but via Reading (how much have things changed in the WLL in these 20 years!)

In the latest reply I've talked about XC to the Derby corridor, and the problem with Swansea is capacity in Wales, I suppose.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Portion working isn't popular because it causes problems, particularly if services are being joined - a late inbound portion screws the rest of the journey up.

IIRC London Midland used to have a 10 min wait at Northampton for the Crewe services (when they ran that way) because they joined with an inbound Birmingham service.

If I recall correctly that wasn't specifically *for* the join, it was a pathing stop, i.e. there wasn't a path to London at the time the Birmingham train got there. It also provided a good level of resilience, so is a good thing. These stops still exist even where an 8-car runs through.

With NMP being a main unit and crew depot for LM/LNR, it also means that if a train from the north is going to be late there, it can often be "restarted" on time with a spare set and crew.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Mar 2021 ==

It seems to me that many of the services being suggested by people are not actually intercity, but rather they are semi-fast commuter services over a very long distance. Post HS2 phase 2b, I'd expect all WCML services out of Euston to be modelled on a London Northwestern basis with all stock being a doors at 1/3 & 2/3 positions.

I'm not convinced. There will be considerable increases in the "LNR" service, and indeed the proposals I've seen suggest a metro style service from MKC to Euston of at least 6tph. However, what's also needed is a residual IC service to serve Watford, MK (which will have 400,000 population or more by the time HS2 opens) and Rugby. This will probably be around the sort of frequency MKC presently gets, i.e. Brum, Manchester** and North Wales, and would likely still be a fastish* IC style service with end-doored units.

So, er, my suggestion:
2tph Euston-WFJ-MKC-Rugby-Coventry-Brum Intl-New St-Sandwell-Wolves
1tph Euston-WFJ-MKC-Rugby-Nuneaton-Tamworth-Lichfield-Stafford-Stoke-Stockport-Manchester Pic-Bolton-Preston-Lancaster-Oxenholme-Penrith-Carlisle then alternating at 0.5tph each to Lockerbie-Edinburgh and Carstairs-Glasgow.
1tph Euston-WFJ-MKC-Rugby-Nuneaton-Tamworth-Lichfield-Stafford-Crewe-Chester then onto the North Wales Coast. Ideally hourly to Holyhead, which means it would provide the main semifast Holyhead service on the North Wales Coast; the stopping pattern would be dictated by precisely what it replaced.

All other capacity would go to LNR services and freight of some kind which are out of scope for this thread, though I would suggest that the Crewe LNR service (WFJ-MKC-Rugby-all stations to Crewe straight up the WCML, possibly extending one of the two all stations to Preston or even Blackpool N) should be doubled to 2tph of 8-car sets, and Polesworth either properly reinstated on both of these services or closed outright.

Stock wise possibly keep it simple with 200m classic compatible HS2 units. Hopefully wires on the North Wales Coast at some point, though until those went up you'd probably need to still use the 5-car bi-mode 80x sets that are on order for Avanti for the Welsh services.

* Slower than now - e.g. I'd reckon all trains would do Watford, MK, Rugby and some of the Trent Valley stations.
** I've seen it suggested, which is not at all a bad idea, that this could continue to Scotland in place of the present TPE service, thus giving Bolton the direct London service it seems to want, and retaining a direct Scotland service for MKC.

 

[Purple Orange]

If I recall correctly that wasn't specifically *for* the join, it was a pathing stop, i.e. there wasn't a path to London at the time the Birmingham train got there. It also provided a good level of resilience, so is a good thing. These stops still exist even where an 8-car runs through.

With NMP being a main unit and crew depot for LM/LNR, it also means that if a train from the north is going to be late there, it can often be "restarted" on time with a spare set and crew.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Mar 2021 ==



I'm not convinced. There will be considerable increases in the "LNR" service, and indeed the proposals I've seen suggest a metro style service from MKC to Euston of at least 6tph. However, what's also needed is a residual IC service to serve Watford, MK (which will have 400,000 population or more by the time HS2 opens) and Rugby. This will probably be around the sort of frequency MKC presently gets, i.e. Brum, Manchester** and North Wales, and would likely still be a fastish* IC style service with end-doored units.

So, er, my suggestion:
2tph Euston-WFJ-MKC-Rugby-Coventry-Brum Intl-New St-Sandwell-Wolves
1tph Euston-WFJ-MKC-Rugby-Nuneaton-Tamworth-Lichfield-Stafford-Stoke-Stockport-Manchester Pic-Bolton-Preston-Lancaster-Oxenholme-Penrith-Carlisle then alternating at 0.5tph each to Lockerbie-Edinburgh and Carstairs-Glasgow.
1tph Euston-WFJ-MKC-Rugby-Nuneaton-Tamworth-Lichfield-Stafford-Crewe-Chester then onto the North Wales Coast. Ideally hourly to Holyhead, which means it would provide the main semifast Holyhead service on the North Wales Coast; the stopping pattern would be dictated by precisely what it replaced.

All other capacity would go to LNR services and freight of some kind which are out of scope for this thread, though I would suggest that the Crewe LNR service (WFJ-MKC-Rugby-all stations to Crewe straight up the WCML, possibly extending one of the two all stations to Preston or even Blackpool N) should be doubled to 2tph of 8-car sets, and Polesworth either properly reinstated on both of these services or closed outright.

Stock wise possibly keep it simple with 200m classic compatible HS2 units. Hopefully wires on the North Wales Coast at some point, though until those went up you'd probably need to still use the 5-car bi-mode 80x sets that are on order for Avanti for the Welsh services.

* Slower than now - e.g. I'd reckon all trains would do Watford, MK, Rugby and some of the Trent Valley stations.
** I've seen it suggested, which is not at all a bad idea, that this could continue to Scotland in place of the present TPE service, thus giving Bolton the direct London service it seems to want, and retaining a direct Scotland service for MKC.

Watford, MK and Rugby are very small markets for Manchester and vice versa. The attention of those towns are south towards Euston. Yes there should be a direct link, but I’d even have it going via Brum or and extension of the Euston-Crewe LNW service. I wouldn’t link the Manchester to Glasgow service with it because that is a very different type of service to the service needed south of Manchester, plus it perpetuates the XC effect, of linking multiple journeys together. Bolton residents would make use of HS2 from either Piccadilly or Preston. HS2 will completely change Intercity travel in a more significant way than the HST did and change peope’s travel habits. Everywhere-to everywhere must stop and the best service from a town like Bolton is to have a high frequency train to Manchester & Preston, then change to HS2. This is the same for Wilmslow (an area of 35,000 similar to Altrincham but that won’t get a look in because a metro is deemed to be better).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Mar 2021 ==

Why on earth would people take a train from Bradford to London that takes 3hr20-3hr40 when the train from central Leeds does it in 80 minutes?
With a reasonable connection window at Leeds its going to be an hour or more slower.

Sure it's a direct train but there are limits to what people will accept for the benefit of a direct train.

Also theres not much reason to make the South West XC trains go beyond Birmingham when they will get crushed on journey time by simply changing in Birmingham or at Old Oak Common.

Yes you’re completely right. That makes no sense looking back now. I’ve let myself get convinced by the ‘everywhere-to-everywhere’ brigade and the emphasis must be on specific high frequency journeys.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Watford, MK and Rugby are very small markets for Manchester and vice versa.

Manchester is England's second or third city (depending on who you ask), and a major connectional hub for the North. With respect I would suggest that if you went to MKC (you may need to go back in time a year and a half to do this, or give it a year or so in the future before you do) and looked how busy platform 6 is when the hourly Manchester is due, you would "get it". It's busier than the Birmingham at many times of day.

Of course London is the bigger draw, and that will get a metro-style service - I've seen at least 6tph proposed, all day.

So, in short, you're wrong. And as MK grows from a population of 250K to 400+K and bigger still, that market will grow.

Yes there should be a direct link, but I’d even have it going via Brum or and extension of the Euston-Crewe LNW service

Definitely not. One of the major arguments for HS2 is a better InterCity service for the south WCML major towns; removing that would not be popular.

I think you considerably underestimate (a) the demand for InterCity services to/from MK and its hinterland (and connecting via East West Rail), and (b) how much that will grow when MK doubles in size - at least - by the time HS2 is finished.

 

[Purple Orange]

Manchester is England's second or third city (depending on who you ask), and a major connectional hub for the North. With respect I would suggest that if you went to MKC (you may need to go back in time a year and a half to do this, or give it a year or so in the future before you do) and looked how busy platform 6 is when the hourly Manchester is due, you would "get it". It's busier than the Birmingham at many times of day.

Of course London is the bigger draw, and that will get a metro-style service - I've seen at least 6tph proposed, all day.

So, in short, you're wrong. And as MK grows from a population of 250K to 400+K and bigger still, that market will grow.



Definitely not. One of the major arguments for HS2 is a better InterCity service for the south WCML major towns; removing that would not be popular.

I think you considerably underestimate (a) the demand for InterCity services to/from MK and its hinterland (and connecting via East West Rail), and (b) how much that will grow when MK doubles in size - at least - by the time HS2 is finished.

Perhaps I may be underestimating the size of the market to Brum & Manc, but it’s not going to be bigger than 1 tph surely. The issue as I see it regarding connecting towns & cities is that the WCML services are completely changed and more stops are added. For instance, there are 6 paths completely freed up exclusively by HS2 and a further 4 that are partially freed up (2 Liverpool, 1 Wales, 1 Scotland). Theoretically there should be more paths created if trains are travelling at a more uniform speed. However the only service I disagree with you on is the extension of the Manchester service through to Scotland. Castlefield will always be a dogs dinner as long as there are long distance services running through it, there the south WCML service should terminate in the main Piccadilly platforms.

Now that brings us to rolling stock. If it is a line with services that are making frequent stops and capped at 110 mph, surely 8-car units with doors at thirds are best for the job. I would even say something akin to 200m Javelins if it is run at 125 mph.

 

[A0]

Manchester is England's second or third city (depending on who you ask), and a major connectional hub for the North. With respect I would suggest that if you went to MKC (you may need to go back in time a year and a half to do this, or give it a year or so in the future before you do) and looked how busy platform 6 is when the hourly Manchester is due, you would "get it". It's busier than the Birmingham at many times of day.

Of course London is the bigger draw, and that will get a metro-style service - I've seen at least 6tph proposed, all day.

So, in short, you're wrong. And as MK grows from a population of 250K to 400+K and bigger still, that market will grow.



Definitely not. One of the major arguments for HS2 is a better InterCity service for the south WCML major towns; removing that would not be popular.

I think you considerably underestimate (a) the demand for InterCity services to/from MK and its hinterland (and connecting via East West Rail), and (b) how much that will grow when MK doubles in size - at least - by the time HS2 is finished.

I would agree there is demand for MK to Manchester, however if those services stopped at most places along the TV as you're suggesting it will kill the journey time.

MK isn't going to benefit directly from HS2 - that doesn't mean 2 horse towns like Tamworth or Lichfield suddenly justify being stops on a "fast" London - MK - Manchester service.

Currently MK - Stoke takes a smidge under an hour on Avanti, whereas MK - Stafford takes 1h 15m on LNW stopping along the TV.

With your stopping pattern you'd turn MK - Manchester from a 1h 38m journey to a 2h 15m one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would agree there is demand for MK to Manchester, however if those services stopped at most places along the TV as you're suggesting it will kill the journey time.

MK isn't going to benefit directly from HS2 - that doesn't mean 2 horse towns like Tamworth or Lichfield suddenly justify being stops on a "fast" London - MK - Manchester service.

Currently MK - Stoke takes a smidge under an hour on Avanti, whereas MK - Stafford takes 1h 15m on LNW stopping along the TV.

With your stopping pattern you'd turn MK - Manchester from a 1h 38m journey to a 2h 15m one.

That's a fair point, but is the opposite of what the other post was suggesting - which was no classic IC services at all!

 

[HST43257]

A lot of ideas here. Main affected IC operators included.



HS2

• 2tph London to Birmingham calling at Birmingham Curzon Street only.
• 4tph Birmingham Interchange to Birmingham calling at Birmingham Curzon Street only.
• 1tph London to Shrewsbury calling at Birmingham Interchange, Sutton Coldfield, Walsall, Wolverhampton, Telford Central, Wellington and Shrewsbury.
• 1tph London to Glasgow calling at York, Newcastle HS, Edinburgh HS and Glasgow HS.
• 1tph London to Glasgow calling at Birmingham Interchange, East Midlands Hub, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle HS, Edinburgh HS and Glasgow HS.
• 1tph London to Edinburgh calling at York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle Central, Alnmouth for Alnwick (1tp2h), Berwick-upon-Tweed, Dunbar (1tp2h) and Edinburgh Waverley.
• 1tph Birmingham to Edinburgh calling at East Midlands Hub, York, Newcastle Central, Alnmouth for Alnwick, Berwick-upon-Tweed and Edinburgh Waverley.
• 2tph London to Leeds and Sheffield calling at East Midlands Hub, with the Leeds branch then calling at Leeds HS only, and the Sheffield branch calling at Chesterfield and Sheffield (continues to Leeds HS non stop)
• 2tph Birmingham to Leeds calling at East Midlands Hub and Leeds HS.
• 1tph London to York calling at Birmingham Interchange, Burton-on-Trent, Derby, Sheffield and York.
• 1tph London to Aberdeen calling at Birmingham Interchange, Preston, Lancaster, Carlisle, Motherwell, Stirling, Perth, Dundee, Arbroath, Montrose and Aberdeen.
• 1tph London to Glasgow calling At Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme Lake District, Carlisle, Lockerbie (1tp2h), Carstairs (1tp2h), Motherwell and Glasgow Central.
• 1tph Birmingham to Edinburgh and Glasgow calling at Warrington Bank Quay, Preston, Lancaster and Carlisle, with the Edinburgh branch then calling at Haymarket and Edinburgh, and the Glasgow branch then calling at Glasgow only.
• 2tph London to Manchester calling at Manchester Interchange and Manchester HS.
• 1tph London to Huddersfield calling at Stafford, Stoke-on-Trent, Macclesfield, Stockport, Stalybridge and Huddersfield.
• 1tph London to Liverpool and Chester calling at Crewe, with the Liverpool branch calling at Warrington Bank Quay, Widnes for Runcorn and Liverpool Central HS, and the Chester branch calling at Chester only.
• 1tph London to Liverpool and Manchester calling at Crewe, with the Liverpool branch calling at Warrington Bank Quay, Widnes for Runcorn and Liverpool Central HS, and the Manchester branch calling at Wilmslow, Stockport and Manchester Piccadilly.

NPR

• 2tph Liverpool to Edinburgh calling at Warrington Bank Quay HS, Manchester Interchange, Manchester HS, Leeds HS, York, Darlington, Newcastle HS, Edinburgh HS and Glasgow HS.
• 2tph Birmingham to Newcastle calling at Crewe, Manchester Interchange, Manchester HS, Bradford HS, Leeds HS, York, Darlington, Durham and Newcastle HS.
• 2tph Liverpool to Hull calling at Widnes for Runcorn, Warrington Bank Quay HS, Manchester Interchange, Manchester HS, Bradford HS, Leeds HS, Selby, Brough and Hull
• 1tph Liverpool to Cleethorpes calling at Widnes for Runcorn, Warrington Bank Quay HS, Manchester Interchange, Manchester HS, Stockport, Sheffield, Meadowhall, Doncaster, Scunthorpe, Barnetby, Habrough, Grimsby Town and Cleethorpes.
• 1tph Liverpool to Nottingham calling at Widnes for Runcorn, Warrington Bank Quay HS, Manchester Interchange, Manchester HS, Stockport, Sheffield, Chesterfield, Alfreton and Nottingham.

LNER

• 1tph London to Edinburgh calling at St Neots, Peterborough, Doncaster, York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle Central, Morpeth, Alnmouth for Alnwick (1tp2h), Berwick-upon-Tweed, Dunbar (1tp2h) and Edinburgh Waverley.
• 1tph London to Leeds calling at Peterborough, Newark North Gate, Retford, Doncaster, Wakefield Westgate and Leeds.
• 1tph London to Sheffield calling at St Neots, Peterborough, Nottingham, Langley Mill, Alfreton, Chesterfield and Sheffield.
• 1tp2h London to Sunderland and Bradford calling at Doncaster, with the Sunderland branch then calling at York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Eaglescliffe, Stockton, Hartlepool and Sunderland, and the Bradford branch then calling at Pontefract Monkhill, Wakefield Kirkgate, Mirfield, Brighouse, Halifax and Bradford Interchange.
• 1tp2h London to Middlesbrough and Hull calling at Doncaster, with the Middlesbrough branch then calling at York, Northallerton and Middlesbrough, and the Hull branch then calling at Selby, Brough and Hull.
• 1tph London to York calling at Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark North Gate, Doncaster and York.
• 1tp2h London to Nottingham calling at Peterborough, Grantham, Bingham, Aslockton and Nottingham.
• 1tp2h London to Cleethorpes calling at Peterborough, Grantham, Newark North Gate, Lincoln Central, Market Rasen, Barnetby, Habrough, Grimsby Town and Cleethorpes.

TPE

• 1tph Newcastle to Liverpool calling at Chester-le-Street, Durham, Darlington, Northallerton, York, Garforth, Leeds, Dewsbury, Huddersfield, Manchester Victoria, Newton-le-Willows, Earlestown and Liverpool Lime Street.
• 1tph Saltburn to Stockport calling at Redcar Central, Middlesbrough, Thornaby, Eaglescliffe, Yarm, Northallerton, Thirsk, York, Garforth, Leeds, Huddersfield, Stalybridge and Stockport (for Man Airport) - continues to Bristol or further as XC.
• 1tph Scarborough to Liverpool calling at Seamer, Malton, York, Wakefield Kirkgate, Huddersfield, Manchester Victoria, Lea Green, Huyton and Liverpool Lime Street.

EMR

• 2tph London to Corby calling at Luton Airport, Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough, Kettering and Corby.
• 1tph London to Sheffield calling at Leicester, Loughborough, East Midlands Parkway, Long Eaton, Derby, Belper, Chesterfield and Sheffield.
• 1tph London to Matlock calling at Leicester, Loughborough, East Midlands Parkway, Long Eaton, Derby, Duffield, Belper and Matlock.
• 1tph London to Nottingham calling at Kettering, Market Harborough, Leicester, East Midlands Parkway, Beeston and Nottingham.
• 1tph London to Melton Mowbray calling at Kettering, Market Harborough, Leicester and Melton Mowbray.

AWC

• 1tph London to Manchester calling at Watford Junction, Milton Keynes, Stafford, Stoke-on-Trent, Macclesfield, Stockport and Manchester Piccadilly.
• 1tph London to Crewe calling at Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Sandwell & Dudley, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Stoke-on-Trent and Crewe.
• 1tp2h London to Edinburgh calling at Watford Junction, Milton Keynes Central, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Smethwick Galton Bridge, Wolverhampton, Crewe, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western, Preston, Lancaster, Penrith North Lakes, Carlisle, Haymarket and Edinburgh Waverley.
• 1tp2h London to Glasgow calling at Watford Junction, Milton Keynes Central, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Smethwick Galton Bridge, Wolverhampton, Crewe, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western, Preston, Lancaster, Penrith North Lakes, Carlisle and Glasgow Central.
• 1tp2h London to Llandudno and Caernarfon calling at Milton Keynes, Crewe, Chester, Prestatyn, Rhyl, Colwyn Bay and Llandudno Junction, with the Llandudno branch then calling at Llandudno only and the Caernarfon branch then calling at Bangor and Caernarfon.
• 1tp2h London to Llandudno and Holyhead calling at Milton Keynes, Crewe, Chester, Prestatyn, Rhyl, Colwyn Bay and Llandudno Junction, with the Llandudno branch then calling at Llandudno only and the Holyhead branch then calling at Bangor and Holyhead.

XC

• 1tp2h Penzance to Scarborough and Edinburgh calling at St Erth, Cambourne, Redruth, Truro, St Austell, Par, Bodmin Parkway, Liskeard, Plymouth, Totnes, Newton Abbot, Exeter St Davids, Tiverton Parkway, Taunton, Bristol Temple Meads, Bristol Parkway, Cheltenham Spa, Birmingham New Street, Tamworth, Burton, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Wakefield, Leeds and York, with the Scarborough branch then calling at Malton, Seamer and Scarborough, and the Edinburgh branch then calling at Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle Central, Morpeth (1tp2h), Alnmouth (1tp2h), Dunbar and Edinburgh Waverley.
• 1tp2h Plymouth to Scarborough and Edinburgh calling at Totnes, Newton Abbot, Exeter St Davids, Tiverton Parkway, Taunton, Bristol Temple Meads, Bristol Parkway, Cheltenham Spa, Birmingham New Street, Tamworth, Burton, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Wakefield, Leeds and York, with the Scarborough branch then calling at Malton, Seamer and Scarborough, and the Edinburgh branch then calling at Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle Central, Morpeth (1tp2h), Alnmouth (1tp2h), Dunbar and Edinburgh Waverley.
• 1tp2h Paignton to TPE and Manchester calling at Torquay, Newton Abbot, Teignmouth, Dawlish, Exeter St Davids, Tiverton Parkway, Taunton, Bristol Temple Meads, Bristol Parkway, Cheltenham Spa, Birmingham New Street, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Stoke-on-Trent, Macclesfield and Stockport, with a branch continuing onto TPE) and the Manchester branch calling at Manchester Piccadilly only.
• 1tp2h Taunton to TPE and Manchester calling at Bristol Temple Meads, Bristol Parkway, Cheltenham Spa, Birmingham New Street, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Stoke-on-Trent, Macclesfield and Stockport, with a branch continuing onto TPE) and the Manchester branch calling at Manchester Piccadilly only.
• 1tph Bournemouth to Hull calling at Brockenhurst, Southampton Central, Southampton Airport Parkway, Winchester, Basingstoke, Reading, Oxford, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Birmingham New Street, Derby, Sheffield, Doncaster, Goole, Brough and Hull.
• 1tph Reading to Nuneaton calling at Oxford, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Coventry and Nuneaton.