Suggestions for services along the Swansea & District Line

[adrock1976]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-proposal-to-operate-passenger-trains.177767/

I designed a regional clock face "Takhtplan" a couple of summers ago, which involved potential services along the Swansea District.

I had come up with the following that is listed below:


Swansea/Abertawe - Milford Haven via Carmarthen every 60 minutes, calling all stations

Swansea - Tenby via Carmarthen every 60 minutes, calling all stations with 2 hourly extensions to Pembroke Dock

Swansea - Llandovery short workings every 2 hours, and Llandrindod Wells - Shrewsbury short workings every 2 hours. The middle section via Llanwrtyd Wells would be an extension every 4 hours for the direct Swansea - Shrewsbury trains.

Cardiff Central - Carmarthen limited stop via Swansea District every 30 minutes, calling Bridgend/Pen-y-Bont, Pyle, Port Talbot Parkway, Morriston Neath Road, Gorseinon, Llangennech, Bynea, Llanelli, and Carmarthen

Cardiff Central - Llandeilo or Llandovery limited stop via Swansea District every 2 hours, calling at Bridgend, Port Talbot Parkway, Morriston Neath Road, Gorseinon, and stations to either Llandeilo or Llandovery

Cardiff Central - Fishguard Harbour limited stop via Swansea District every 2 hours, calling at Bridgend, Port Talbot Parkway, Morriston Neath Road, Gorseinon, Llangennech, Bynea, Llanelli, Whitland, Clarbeston Road, Fishguard & Goodwick, and Fishguard Harbour

Swansea - Port Talbot Parkway local shuttle every 30 minutes, calling all stations


The 3 stations between Bridgend and Cardiff Central could solely have Maesteg - Caerffili via Ninian Park trains calling at them every 30 minutes.

 

[Envoy]

I note that Grand Union have made an application to launch a competing rail service on the London to south Wales route. Surely, it would be beneficial if they were to operate to Carmarthenshire via the Swansea District Line thus providing a new service whilst at the same time, Swansea & Neath do not lose out as they remain served by GWR on the London route?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-48992125

Within two years, the company said services would run hourly, taking in Bridgend, Port Talbot Parkway, Neath, Swansea, Gowerton and Llanelli.
Llanelli is currently linked to London by one train a day in each direction on a GWR service to and from Carmarthen.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I designed a regional clock face "Takhtplan" a couple of summers ago, which involved potential services along the Swansea District.

I had come up with the following that is listed below:
Swansea/Abertawe - Milford Haven via Carmarthen every 60 minutes, calling all stations
... .

I suspect that such a comprehensive service would take time to develop, but let's hope your plans come true. If a decent SDL service is provided, I'm sure it will make a huge difference to places on the southern end of the Heart of Wales line over time.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Just a thought. There are rumours around that TfW are planning to retain at least some of the class 175s that are currently being refurbished beyond the current lease. Could these be intended for some sort of west wales > SDL > Cardiff service?

 

[S-Bahn]

There are certainly a lot of people who commute to Cardiff from Swansea, many of whom use their cars. Parkway stations on the S&D with services between Cardiff and West Wales (and Bristol) would be popular if the service is frequent and quick enough. Even GWR might be tempted to put on services to London and Bristol if the demand is there.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Just a thought. There are rumours around that TfW are planning to retain at least some of the class 175s that are currently being refurbished beyond the current lease. Could these be intended for some sort of west wales > SDL > Cardiff service?

If they did retain some 175s, I hope that is indeed one of the things they would use them for. Almost since the details franchise were announced, I've been of the opinion that either the 175s (all of them) or the 158s (all 24) should be kept in order to work all services to Carmarthen, in Pembrokeshire and on the Heart Of Wales line. They should take over Swansea Landore depot to fuel and (help) maintain the fleet. Services to Carmarthen and Pembrokeshire should include regular Swansea District Line services.

I had come up with the following that is listed below:

Swansea/Abertawe - Milford Haven via Carmarthen every 60 minutes, calling all stations

Swansea - Tenby via Carmarthen every 60 minutes, calling all stations with 2 hourly extensions to Pembroke Dock

The Pembroke Dock line, with the single loop at Tenby, has frustrated my efforts to construct a clockface timetable. Anything going down the branch from Whitland has to come back (approximately) a multiple of 60 minutes later due to the 28min run-time between Whitland and Tenby. Whitland to Milford Haven/Fishguard on the other hand is 35-40 minutes each way, add a turnaround of 25 minutes and the unit is back in Whitland about 1hr 40 minutes later. The result is that what you'd hope would be an approximately 30-minute interval service between Whitland/Carmarthen and Swansea falls apart.

Solving that requires an additional passing loop (prefrably dynamic) between Whitland and Tenby, but using such a loop means you cannot sensibly do hourly to Tenby (units would have to sit there for a silly length of time).

Swansea - Llandovery short workings every 2 hours, and Llandrindod Wells - Shrewsbury short workings every 2 hours. The middle section via Llanwrtyd Wells would be an extension every 4 hours for the direct Swansea - Shrewsbury trains.

Cardiff Central - Carmarthen limited stop via Swansea District every 30 minutes, calling Bridgend/Pen-y-Bont, Pyle, Port Talbot Parkway, Morriston Neath Road, Gorseinon, Llangennech, Bynea, Llanelli, and Carmarthen

Cardiff Central - Llandeilo or Llandovery limited stop via Swansea District every 2 hours, calling at Bridgend, Port Talbot Parkway, Morriston Neath Road, Gorseinon, and stations to either Llandeilo or Llandovery

Cardiff Central - Fishguard Harbour limited stop via Swansea District every 2 hours, calling at Bridgend, Port Talbot Parkway, Morriston Neath Road, Gorseinon, Llangennech, Bynea, Llanelli, Whitland, Clarbeston Road, Fishguard & Goodwick, and Fishguard Harbour

I make that 3 trains per hour through Morriston, and 4.5 between Llanelli and Carmarthen, did you mean to suggest that? I note also that your plan would see Milford Haven lose all its through services to Cardiff, and that despite calling your services through Morriston 'limited stop' they still serve Bridgend, Gorseinon (which isn't even on the route), Llangennech, Bynea and, in some cases, even Pyle.

Assuming we could have a suitable dynamic loop between Tenby and Whitland, my proposal would be:

• 30-minute interval service between Swansea and Pembrey & Burry Port, calling at Gowerton, Llanelli and Pembrey & Burry Port made up of:
  • hourly service to Clarbeston Road, calling additionally at Carmarthen, Whitland, Clunderwen and Clarbeston Road, projected forward to Milford/Fishguard calling at all stations as follows:
    • to Fishguard for FGH arrivals at approximately 07:20, 09:20, 18:20 and 20:20 and FGH departures at approximately 07:50, 09:50, 18:50 and 20:50, plus either:
      • 14:50 and 16:50 services from Fishguard, with corrosponding xx:20ish arrivals or
      • a 15:50 service from Fishguard, with corrosponding xx:20ish arrival
    • to Milford Haven the rest of the time
  • hourly service to Whitland, calling additionally at Kidwelly, Ferryside, Carmarthen, St. Clears and Whitland, projected forward to Pembroke Dock every two hours calling at all stations (with possible peak extras to Tenby, also serving all stations) and a possible one-off Fishguard portion departing FGH at 06:25
• Hourly express service between Cardiff and Carmarthen, comprising the following:
  • two trains each way to/from Fishguard Harbour, connecting with the ferries, calling at Port Talbot Parkway, Morriston, Llanelli, Carmarthen, Whitland, Fishguard & Goodwick and Fishguard Harbour
  • trains to/from Milford Haven, in the hours that the Swansea service above runs to Fishguard, calling at Port Talbot Parkway, Morriston, Llanelli, Carmarthen, Whitland, Haverfordwest, Johnston and Milford Haven
  • possible once/twice daily seasonal service to/from Tenby, calling at Port Talbot Parkway, Morriston, Llanelli, Carmarthen, Whitland, Kilgetty and Tenby
    
  • services terminating/starting at Carmarthen, calling at Port Talbot Parkway, Morriston, Llanelli and Carmarthen

Ultimately, the results of all this would be:

• 7/8 trains per day for Fishguard, including the evening ferry connecting through to Cardiff rather than Swansea at present,
  
• hourly services between Carmarthen and Cardiff (the same frequency as today, but much faster),
  
• hourly services for St. Clears (new station), Ferryside and Kidwelly,
  
• 3tph between Llanelli and Carmarthen,
• 1tph on the Milford Haven branch, retaining a good number of through trains to/from Cardiff at the cost of uneven intervals due to the mix of Swansea stoppers and Cardiff expresses that make up the service

 

[Dr Day]

All good stuff and there are wider social issues etc but would the incremental operational costs ever come anywhere near the incremental revenues, on an already highly subsidised part of the network?

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

All good stuff and there are wider social issues etc but would the incremental operational costs ever come anywhere near the incremental revenues, on an already highly subsidised part of the network?

I don't know the answer to that but it's almost certainly 'probably not'. Having said that, this is now a Welsh Government franchise not a DfT one, with the profits of the operator capped. If, as I suspect may happen, there is exponential growth on the network around Cardiff after electrification of the valley lines they may have money to throw at it.

 

[anthony263]

Personally the Express service on the swansea district line should be an extension of a service terminating at Cardiff from the east providing stock was available.

There should also be a stopper service shuttling between llanelli and port Talbot parkway service additional local stations constructed along the swansea district line perhaps using class 230s

 

[Rhydgaled]

Personally the Express service on the swansea district line should be an extension of a service terminating at Cardiff from the east providing stock was available.

The problem with that is the two regional express services which terminate from the east (Nottingham and Portsmouth) are run by different TOCs. It's a shame the SoctRail + Northern Glasgow-Carlisle-Newcastle model isn't more-widely available as through services across franchise boundries could sometimes be useful. Carmarthen-Portsmouth via the Swansea District Line would be good if it could be done.

There should also be a stopper service shuttling between llanelli and port Talbot parkway service additional local stations constructed along the swansea district line perhaps using class 230s

I think the first thing for the SDL is an express service, with at most one station on the SDL. As for other stations, I wonder whether a Llandovery - Morriston - Llandarcy - Swansea service would be a good idea, using the frieght line through Jersey Marine. The big problem is that it stops short of Swansea city centre, although I think a transport professor did suggest the line could be extended through to Swansea High Street station as part of his Swansea metro proposal a while back.

 

[70014IronDuke]

If they did retain some 175s, I hope that is indeed one of the things they would use them for. Almost since the details franchise were announced, I've been of the opinion that either the 175s (all of them) or the 158s (all 24) should be kept in order to work all services to Carmarthen, in Pembrokeshire and on the Heart Of Wales line. ...

Much as I would like to see the HoW service improved, surely using 90 mph 158s, let alone 100 mph 175s would be an awful waste of scarce "high-speed" assets on a route where, for at least 90 miles, the line speed is 50 (?) mph? Sure, they might save a few minutes between Shrewsbury and Craven Arms, but I should think Sheffield - Manchester activists would explode if they heard of diagramming of such stock.

 

[krus_aragon]

Much as I would like to see the HoW service improved, surely using 90 mph 158s, let alone 100 mph 175s would be an awful waste of scarce "high-speed" assets on a route where, for at least 90 miles, the line speed is 50 (?) mph?

The linespeed (for MUs) dances around between 45, 50, 55, 60. (The freight speed is a constant 30mph throughout.)

Remember that TfW's existing plan is to use the 170s on this route when the 150s are withdrawn in 2023.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Much as I would like to see the HoW service improved, surely using 90 mph 158s, let alone 100 mph 175s would be an awful waste of scarce "high-speed" assets on a route where, for at least 90 miles, the line speed is 50 (?) mph? Sure, they might save a few minutes between Shrewsbury and Craven Arms, but I should think Sheffield - Manchester activists would explode if they heard of diagramming of such stock.

The trouble with using the 2-car class 175s on routes where their 100mph top speed is useful is that the routes where 100mph infrustructure is justified tend to be quite busy, not where you'd want to run a 2-car unit. That leaves the option of running them in multiple (but passengers, staff and the trolley wouldn't be able to move between units while the train is moving) or using them on quieter routes which tend to have a lower linespeed. I suppose if the alternative for Sheffield-Manchester is a pair of 185s (which also lack unit-end-gangways (UEGs)) then class 175s would be a better choice for fast services on that route.

Going back to Wales, there is some 90mph (and even one HST differential at 100mph) between Port Talbot and Cardiff which makes 158s or 175s the ideal stock for a Swansea District Line express service. The question is whether it wants to be four coaches (in which case go for 158s) or three coaches (in which case 175s are the answer). With hourly Carmarthen-Cardiff via the SDL being about 4 diagrams, plus one or two for extensions into Pembrokeshire, you're looking at 6x 175/1s or 10-12x class 158 (allowing for doubling up in the latter case) needed for the service. To avoid splitting the 175 fleet between operators, you'd need other things for them to do in Wales if you took that option, and the Heart Of Wales is one possibily for the 2-car sets. They'd be much better suited to the HOWL than the proposed 170s in my view.

 

[70014IronDuke]

The linespeed (for MUs) dances around between 45, 50, 55, 60. (The freight speed is a constant 30mph throughout.)

Remember that TfW's existing plan is to use the 170s on this route when the 150s are withdrawn in 2023.

I confess I had read this, but not thought about the implications. Shame they can't spend a few hundred thousand raising those line speeds on the HoW where alignment makes it possible - south of Llandovery, perhaps?

 

[Rhydgaled]

I confess I had read this, but not thought about the implications. Shame they can't spend a few hundred thousand raising those line speeds on the HoW where alignment makes it possible - south of Llandovery, perhaps?

Not much point raising it above 55/60mph while everything calls at every station I would have thought; bringing the slower sections up to 55/60 might help reduce single line occupancy though to help provide a better service. Personally, I think the current stopping services should be suplimented by 3 or 4 limited-stop services (mainly stopping only at the passing loops, plus Ammanford and Pontarddulais) and an all-stops short working to Llandrindod from each end at the end of the day (balanced by having the current morning short working from Llandovery start back from Llandrindod, and the positioning moves to Llandovery/Llandrindod for the current morning short workings withdrawn). I did once make up a timetable that did just that without additional loops, but I didn't allow enough time for the crew to exchange tokens at the loops. Linespeed improvements to shave off a few minutes here and there would buy the time needed to make it workable.