Suggestions for improved rail connectivity to/from West Yorkshire

[Saad]

Hi to anyone reading my thread! I feel West Yorkshire (as well as the whole North of England) has been quite neglected in terms of railways. As I am from West Yorkshire and am familiar with the rail network here, I thought I would post changes I would like to see! Given, a lot of these will be far-fetched dreams, but I would love to see what some of you guys would do for the rest of the North! Here is what I'd do for WY:

1) With the bus franchising and tram construction coming relatively soon, I would like to see a "return" of MetroTrain services along the following routes:
Leeds - Skipton
Leeds - Ilkley
Bradford - Ilkley
Bradford - Skipton
Leeds - Shipley - Bradford
Leeds - Bradford - Huddersfield
Leeds - Wakefield - Knottingley
Leeds - Selby
Leeds - Castleford - Knottingley
For these routes, I would use Class 756 FLIRTs as they have quick acceleration and are bi-mode (this next bit is a bit unrealistic but I would overhaul the disused Healey TMD and store the FLIRTs there)

2) Open several new stations, which are as follows:
Ossett - would be served by Grand Central and TPE
Horbury - would be served by Grand Central and TPE
Thorpe Park - would be served by Northern
LBA Parkway - would be served by Northern and (potentially) LNER
Elland Lowfields - would be served by Grand Central, Northern and my proposed MetroTrain LDS - BDI - HUD service
Stourton - served by Northern (on the fence with this one)
White Rose - served by TPE and Northern (already in progress)
Elland Road - served by Northern and proposed MetroTrain LDS - WKF - KNO service

3) Transform Bradford Forster Square into an underground station with an extension to a low-level part of Bradford Interchange, creating Platforms 5-8 (would be good for people travelling from eg Bingley to Halifax by train)

4) Bring back an EMR service from London to Leeds using 7-car Meridians

5) Alternatively, start constructing parts of HS2 in Leeds so that the construction team would want to link it to the London end

 

[noddingdonkey]

Is there any call for an EMR service? The existing one was just an alternative to running ECS from Neville Hill to Sheffield

 

[Saad]

To be honest, the only reason I want an EMR service is just so I don't have to put up with those horrendous Azuma seats. But realistically, I agree, there is not much of a point of a London - Leeds EMR service.

 

[Topological]

The advantages of the EMR reaching Leeds include the connections for places like Leicester, but again not a massive market.

Of course EMR will be Hitachi 8xx soon as well.

 

[Discuss223]

To be honest, the only reason I want an EMR service is just so I don't have to put up with those horrendous Azuma seats. But realistically, I agree, there is not much of a point of a London - Leeds EMR service.

It used to get quite a few customers travelling beyond Sheffield. There would be advantages to having another London service operating to West Yorkshire, especially if the ECML has disruption but also for Barnsley in South Yorkshire, which as a town centre has just been re-developed and may see some growth in popularity - a town which has not had a direct service to or from London for over 15 years. I do believe there was a plan for all 9 coach Meridians (as they then were) to operate to Leeds on a more regular basis in Midland Mainline days.

 

[Ben427]

Is there any call for an EMR service? The existing one was just an alternative to running ECS from Neville Hill to Sheffield

There's not much except providing additional frequency to London, which Leeds will not get from the ECML

 

[stevieinselby]

Hi to anyone reading my thread! I feel West Yorkshire (as well as the whole North of England) has been quite neglected in terms of railways. As I am from West Yorkshire and am familiar with the rail network here, I thought I would post changes I would like to see! Given, a lot of these will be far-fetched dreams, but I would love to see what some of you guys would do for the rest of the North! Here is what I'd do for WY:

1) With the bus franchising and tram construction coming relatively soon, I would like to see a "return" of MetroTrain services along the following routes:
Leeds - Skipton
Leeds - Ilkley
Bradford - Ilkley
Bradford - Skipton
Leeds - Shipley - Bradford
Leeds - Bradford - Huddersfield
Leeds - Wakefield - Knottingley
Leeds - Selby
Leeds - Castleford - Knottingley
For these routes, I would use Class 756 FLIRTs as they have quick acceleration and are bi-mode (this next bit is a bit unrealistic but I would overhaul the disused Healey TMD and store the FLIRTs there)

Given that almost all of those routes are currently running in that format (the only ones that don't are Leeds to Huddersfield and Leeds to Selby, where the services run but are configured differently), what do you see as being different about MetroTrain? Are you looking for increased frequencies, or something else to differentiate them from other regular Northern services?

Yes, we would all like FLIRTs everywhere, all at once, all the time ... given that the first 5 of the routes you've listed are already fully electric and using fairly modern trains, I'm not sure I would agree with prioritising them for replacement, not when there are other trains elsewhere that are in more urgent need, and when the bi-mode capabilities of the FLIRT are not needed here. Also, I'm not sure that the 755/756 model would be particularly appropriate for a suburban stopping service, with the door layout they have. Maybe consider them for replacing the shonky old Sprinters on the other routes, where they definitely do need new trains, although if another low-floor bi-mode train could be developed with a better layout for suburban services then that might be preferable.

2) Open several new stations, which are as follows:
Ossett - would be served by Grand Central and TPE
Horbury - would be served by Grand Central and TPE
Thorpe Park - would be served by Northern
LBA Parkway - would be served by Northern and (potentially) LNER
Elland Lowfields - would be served by Grand Central, Northern and my proposed MetroTrain LDS - BDI - HUD service
Stourton - served by Northern (on the fence with this one)
White Rose - served by TPE and Northern (already in progress)
Elland Road - served by Northern and proposed MetroTrain LDS - WKF - KNO service

I broadly agree with all of those, although I would not build LBA Parkway because I can't see any benefit to it that you wouldn't get from building a new bus-only access road from Horsforth station to the airport, and I'm not sold on the idea of Elland Road needing a station when it's so close to Leeds.
Elland Lowfields could also be served by Leeds—Wigan trains, and Grand Central might want to dial back the number of extra stops you're adding to avoid slowing their trains down too much.

3) Transform Bradford Forster Square into an underground station with an extension to a low-level part of Bradford Interchange, creating Platforms 5-8 (would be good for people travelling from eg Bingley to Halifax by train)

Is there much demand for travel between Bingley and Halifax (or other similar pairs of stations)? This is one of those ideas that looks good on a fantasy map, and starting from a blank slate might be the way we would want to do things, but the reality of geography in Bradford means it's not really a viable proposition, not to mention that it would be ruinously expensive, and very disruptive for relatively small gains.

4) Bring back an EMR service from London to Leeds using 7-car Meridians

For what purpose? It wouldn't be a useful service for passengers travelling from London to Leeds because it would be so much slower than LNER.
There are already XCountry and Northern services from Leeds and Wakefield to Sheffield, Derby and Nottingham. If additional capacity is needed on those corridors then you would do better to boost those services. In particular, Leeds to Nottingham could do with a proper regional express service more suited to journeys between two major cities.

5) Alternatively, start constructing parts of HS2 in Leeds so that the construction team would want to link it to the London end

Yes!

 

[Saad]

Given that almost all of those routes are currently running in that format (the only ones that don't are Leeds to Huddersfield and Leeds to Selby, where the services run but are configured differently), what do you see as being different about MetroTrain? Are you looking for increased frequencies, or something else to differentiate them from other regular Northern services?

Yes, we would all like FLIRTs everywhere, all at once, all the time ... given that the first 5 of the routes you've listed are already fully electric and using fairly modern trains, I'm not sure I would agree with prioritising them for replacement, not when there are other trains elsewhere that are in more urgent need, and when the bi-mode capabilities of the FLIRT are not needed here. Also, I'm not sure that the 755/756 model would be particularly appropriate for a suburban stopping service, with the door layout they have. Maybe consider them for replacing the shonky old Sprinters on the other routes, where they definitely do need new trains, although if another low-floor bi-mode train could be developed with a better layout for suburban services then that might be preferable.


I broadly agree with all of those, although I would not build LBA Parkway because I can't see any benefit to it that you wouldn't get from building a new bus-only access road from Horsforth station to the airport, and I'm not sold on the idea of Elland Road needing a station when it's so close to Leeds.
Elland Lowfields could also be served by Leeds—Wigan trains, and Grand Central might want to dial back the number of extra stops you're adding to avoid slowing their trains down too much.


Is there much demand for travel between Bingley and Halifax (or other similar pairs of stations)? This is one of those ideas that looks good on a fantasy map, and starting from a blank slate might be the way we would want to do things, but the reality of geography in Bradford means it's not really a viable proposition, not to mention that it would be ruinously expensive, and very disruptive for relatively small gains.

For what purpose? It wouldn't be a useful service for passengers travelling from London to Leeds because it would be so much slower than LNER.
There are already XCountry and Northern services from Leeds and Wakefield to Sheffield, Derby and Nottingham. If additional capacity is needed on those corridors then you would do better to boost those services. In particular, Leeds to Nottingham could do with a proper regional express service more suited to journeys between two major cities.

Yes!

The MetroTrain name is just a suggestion for if WY incorporated all transport networks and I'm just referring to that for simplicity.

The FLIRTs would allow for Skipton/Ilkley/Bradford/Leeds services to run even if the wires were damaged and it would also allow Northern to increase frequencies on other services.

Elland Road station would be mainly for people coming from places like Wakefield just so they don't have to backtrack via Leeds City Centre.

As for Grand Central, in my head, if Elland Lowfields, Ossett and Horbury were to be calling points, I would have Low Moor removed from the list as passengers won't have to travel relatively long to either Bradford or Halifax.

I do see your point with the Bradford Interchange low-level idea. I just think it would be quite convenient to those who would actually travel between north and south Bradford.

In relation to the EMR service, I do agree London - Leeds with EMR is pointless, however there could be a market for passengers from Leeds/Wakefield/Barnsley etc going to places like Loughborough and Leicester. It is only an idea and not something I'm deadset upon. I'd much rather they just bring HS2 to Leeds instead.

 

[skyhigh]

The FLIRTs would allow for Skipton/Ilkley/Bradford/Leeds services to run even if the wires were damaged

Assuming Network Rail don't need to shut the lines anyway to repair the damage, or whatever caused the damage isn't still blocking the line.

 

[YorksLad12]

Hi to anyone reading my thread! I feel West Yorkshire (as well as the whole North of England) has been quite neglected in terms of railways. As I am from West Yorkshire and am familiar with the rail network here, I thought I would post changes I would like to see! Given, a lot of these will be far-fetched dreams, but I would love to see what some of you guys would do for the rest of the North! Here is what I'd do for WY:

1) With the bus franchising and tram construction coming relatively soon, I would like to see a "return" of MetroTrain services along the following routes:
Leeds - Skipton
Leeds - Ilkley
Bradford - Ilkley
Bradford - Skipton
Leeds - Shipley - Bradford
Leeds - Bradford - Huddersfield
Leeds - Wakefield - Knottingley
Leeds - Selby
Leeds - Castleford - Knottingley
For these routes, I would use Class 756 FLIRTs as they have quick acceleration and are bi-mode (this next bit is a bit unrealistic but I would overhaul the disused Healey TMD and store the FLIRTs there)

2) Open several new stations, which are as follows:
Ossett - would be served by Grand Central and TPE
Horbury - would be served by Grand Central and TPE
Thorpe Park - would be served by Northern
LBA Parkway - would be served by Northern and (potentially) LNER
Elland Lowfields - would be served by Grand Central, Northern and my proposed MetroTrain LDS - BDI - HUD service
Stourton - served by Northern (on the fence with this one)
White Rose - served by TPE and Northern (already in progress)
Elland Road - served by Northern and proposed MetroTrain LDS - WKF - KNO service

3) Transform Bradford Forster Square into an underground station with an extension to a low-level part of Bradford Interchange, creating Platforms 5-8 (would be good for people travelling from eg Bingley to Halifax by train)

4) Bring back an EMR service from London to Leeds using 7-car Meridians

5) Alternatively, start constructing parts of HS2 in Leeds so that the construction team would want to link it to the London end

I know this is Speculative Discussion, so...

1) will probably happen, but not necessarily called MetroTrain; it'll depend on whatever transport brand WYCA goes with. No new trains though, Northern is looking for new stock to replace the older diesels but there's still a lot of diesel mileage out there.
2) White Rose is nearly complete, Thorpe Park is waiting for funding, LBA Parkway is deader than corduroy and the rest aren't going to happen (especially Elland Road which will be a Mass Transit stop).
3) Huh?
4) Huh? They're getting bi-mode class 810s
5) No. But... building the T-station would allow some services to be decanted there, such as anything heading towards either Wakefield station with new line down past the old Midland station at Crown Point and a connection from near Stourton to near Outwood.

And, actually, West Yorkshire is quite well served. Did you know that 60% of rail services (ten-year-old stat this) run wholly or in part in Greater Manchester and West Yorkshire? The other 40% is spread between 17 other TfN members.

 

[stevieinselby]

The FLIRTs would allow for Skipton/Ilkley/Bradford/Leeds services to run even if the wires were damaged and it would also allow Northern to increase frequencies on other services.

Very often if there is damage to the wires then the line can't safely be used and so services will be suspended anyway.
Where do we stop – should all electric trains have expensive diesel backup engines for the rare occasions when the electricity gets cut off? If not, why this line specifically?

 

[Tetchytyke]

I know it's speculative discussion and all that, but seriously, what is the obsession with bulldozing half of Bradford city centre to build one combined station? The geography of the city would make it horrifically expensive and, even if it didn't, there's simply not the demand. There's a reason why the Halifax to Keighley bus- which is quicker than any proposed through train would be- is financially supported by WYCA.

As for the rolling stock, Northern have issued the initial tender paperwork for replacements for the 150, 156, and 158. It'll be interesting to see what they go with.

Point one, you've basically just described the existing network, other than branding.

 

[Palmerston]

I know it's speculative discussion and all that, but seriously, what is the obsession with bulldozing half of Bradford city centre to build one combined station?

If you're on a speculative thread you may as well include the underground through service Manchester-Bradford-Leeds that various ministers promise, without getting much further.

I guess if you wanted to make a city much better connected, Bradford isn't the biggest, but it must be very low on the well-connected list.

 

[Western Lord]

I know it's speculative discussion and all that, but seriously, what is the obsession with bulldozing half of Bradford city centre to build one combined station?

It's a pity it wasn't done when Bradford Council bulldozed most of the city centre in the seventies, including the Odeon cinema which Rank had refurbished a few years earlier.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's a pity it wasn't done when Bradford Council bulldozed most of the city centre in the seventies

At the time it was touch and go whether Bradford Forster Square would have remained open at all. It was only Bradford Corporation and then WYPTE funding that did keep Forster Square open and, even then, it only had two trains an hour serving it.

The elevation change between the two stations would and will make it a huge undertaking, especially as the Bradford Beck runs right underneath Market Street so you can't easily tunnel.

I guess if you wanted to make a city much better connected, Bradford isn't the biggest, but it must be very low on the well-connected list.

A combination of the geography and the economics of the city doesn't lend itself well to lots of trains going to lots of destinations. Everything is only ever going to be a branch from Leeds.

Since we're being speculative, the only way that would ever change is if the Spen Valley line gets re-opened.

 

[Grimsby town]

4) Bring back an EMR service from London to Leeds using 7-car Meridians

5) Alternatively, start constructing parts of HS2 in Leeds so that the construction team would want to link it to the London end

I'd definitely build HS2 from Thurnscoe into central Leeds with connections to both Wakefield Westgate to Sheffield line and Doncaster to Leeds line.

I'd exerted the EMR London to Sheffield services up the the new line to terminate in Leeds. I'd also divert the hourly Cross Country to terminate at Leeds. The Nottingham to Leeds would be diverted via Swinton and on the new connection.

I'd run a 3rd train from London KX to Leeds. One would go via Wakefield and onward from Leeds to Harrogate/Bradford. The other 2tph would go via the new connection.

So there'd be 6 trains per hour on the new connection with the potential for more in the future. That'd free up capacity in Leeds for more transpennine services and local services to move towards 3/4 trains per hour. Stations such as Cross Gates, Burley Park (and onwards), Outwood, Morley should all have 4 trains per hour where possible.

 

[JRT]

Some of my ideas or variations of the above.

1 tph Bradford – Wakefield Kirkgate (or beyond)

GC integrated into the above

1 tph Bradford – Stockport (or beyond) via Halifax, Huddersfield, and Stalybridge replacing Huddersfield – Stalybridge locals, and providing a direct Huddersfield – Stockport service

1 tph Halifax – Bridlington, replacing the present Halifax – Hull service

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Dec 2024 ==

North Bradford Electrics/Bentham Line:

1 tph Bradford – Skipton all stations

1 tph Bradford – Skipton semi-fast
Bradford – Morecambe service integrated into the above and replacing most Leeds – Morecambe trains

1 tph Bradford – Leeds all stations

1 tph Bradford – Leeds (Shipley only)
Bradford – Leeds – London LNER integrated into the above

1 tph Bradford – Guiseley to connect with a bus to Yeadon Airport, eventually becoming a tram‐train service

1 tph Bradford – Ilkley

Reintroduce Kirkstall Forge stop 1 tph on Ilkley – Leeds to allow connection

1 tph Skipton – Leeds stopper (all stops)
1 tph Skipton – Leeds (as present)
1 tph Skipton – Leeds semi-fast (including all Carlisle – Leeds)

 

[D365]

Hi to anyone reading my thread! I feel West Yorkshire (as well as the whole North of England) has been quite neglected in terms of railways. As I am from West Yorkshire and am familiar with the rail network here, I thought I would post changes I would like to see! Given, a lot of these will be far-fetched dreams, but I would love to see what some of you guys would do for the rest of the North! Here is what I'd do for WY:

1) With the bus franchising and tram construction coming relatively soon, I would like to see a "return" of MetroTrain services along the following routes:
Leeds - Skipton
Leeds - Ilkley
Bradford - Ilkley
Bradford - Skipton
Leeds - Shipley - Bradford
Leeds - Bradford - Huddersfield
Leeds - Wakefield - Knottingley
Leeds - Selby
Leeds - Castleford - Knottingley
For these routes, I would use Class 756 FLIRTs as they have quick acceleration and are bi-mode (this next bit is a bit unrealistic but I would overhaul the disused Healey TMD and store the FLIRTs there)

I'll ignore the rest of this post for now and point out that, within the realms of this speculative discussion, the new Shipley TMD is available...

 

[nr758123]

Some of my ideas or variations of the above.

1 tph Bradford – Stockport (or beyond) via Halifax, Huddersfield, and Stalybridge replacing Huddersfield – Stalybridge locals, and providing a direct Huddersfield – Stockport service

It's not a Huddersfield - Stalybridge local, it's a Huddersfield - Manchester local, and most of the passengers are travelling to or from Manchester. What is your reasoning for sending those passengers to Stockport instead?

 

[Saad]

1) WY Metro: Rail - this is the name I would give for WY's equivalent of the London Overground. Metro would take over these services from TPE and Northern, but the frequencies of these services would remain the same. However, it gives more unity to the county and could potentially be an additional franchising option for WY.

Services that would become part of WY Metro Rail:

• Skipton/Leeds/Bradford/Ilkley electrics
• Leeds - Bradford - Huddersfield
• Leeds - Dewsbury - Huddersfield
• Harrogate - Leeds - Selby (NEW) (hourly)
• Leeds - Castleford - Knottingley (integrates with Northern services to/from Goole)
• Leeds - Wakefield - Knottingley
• Bradford Interchange - Wakefield Kirkgate (NEW) (hourly, integrates with GC services)

On these routes I would use some kind of low-floor multiple unit. Because some routes are electrified and others aren't, I would use some kind of bi-mode train, so something like a 756, or a bi-mode version of the 777s. This is so that units can alternate between different routes on different days (eg electric route on one day and a diesel route the next day), and also it makes it easier to maintain. As for storing these units, I personally would overhaul the disused TMD in Healey to store these units.


2) New stations - I think there are several places in West Yorkshire that would benefit from a rail station, so here is my list, and the operators & services that would serve the station:

Ossett

• Grand Central: London King's Cross - Bradford Interchange
• TransPennine Express: Manchester Piccadilly - York via Wakefield Kirkgate
• WY Metro Rail: Bradford Interchange - Wakefield Kirkgate

Horbury

• Grand Central: London King's Cross - Bradford Interchange
• TransPennine Express: Manchester Piccadilly - York via Wakefield Kirkgate
• WY Metro Rail: Bradford Interchange - Wakefield Kirkgate

Elland Lowfields

• Grand Central: London King's Cross - Bradford Interchange
• Northern: Leeds - Wigan
• WY Metro Rail: Bradford Interchange - Wakefield Kirkgate
• WY Metro Rail: Leeds - Huddersfield via Bradford Interchange

Thorpe Park

• Northern: Leeds - Hull
• Northern: Leeds - York stopper
• WY Metro Rail: Harrogate - Selby

White Rose (already in progress)

• WY Metro Rail: Leeds - Huddersfield via Dewsbury

3) GBR - With GBR soon coming to the railways, I decided to have a think about how it would be managed. I eventually decided to divide services geographically (with the exception of GBR InterCity), and have WY served by GBR North Western, GBR North Eastern and GBR East Midlands. This is how services would be split up:

GBR InterCity:

• TransPennine Express: Redcar Central - Manchester Airport
• TransPennine Express: Newcastle - Liverpool Lime Street
• TransPennine Express: Hull - Liverpool Lime Street
• TransPennine Express: Scarborough - Manchester Victoria
• LNER: Leeds - London King's Cross / Skipton / Bradford FS / Harrogate
• CrossCountry: Leeds - Edinburgh / Glasgow / Aberdeen / Birmingham / Bristol / Plymouth / Penzance

GBR North Eastern:

• Northern: Halifax - Hull
• Northern: Leeds - Micklefield - York
• Northern: Leeds - Goole
• Northern: Leeds - Harrogate - York
• Northern: Leeds - Doncaster stopper
• Northern: Leeds - Rotherham - Sheffield

GBR North Western:

• Northern: York - Blackpool North
• Northern: Leeds - Chester
• Northern: Leeds - Manchester Victoria stopper
• TransPennine Express: Manchester Piccadilly - Wakefield Kirkgate - York

GBR East Midlands:

• Northern: Leeds - Barnsley - Sheffield stopper
• Northern: Leeds - Nottingham
• Northern: Leeds - Lincoln Central

4) MetroTrain: my new idea for MetroTrain would work similar to the Leeds Core Bus Network, with certain routes within WY and beyond having a minimum of 3tph excluding TPE, LNER and XC (some timings have been altered)

Leeds - Halifax via Bradford:

• XX09 to Huddersfield (Metro)
• XX21 to Manchester Victoria stopper (GBR NW)
• XX33 to Halifax (GBR NE)
• XX45 to Chester (GBR NW)
• XX57 to Blackpool North (GBR NW)

Leeds - Micklefield:

• XX01 to Hull (GBR NE)
• XX16 to York stopper (GBR NE)
• XX31 to York fast (GBR NW)
• XX46 to Selby (Metro)

Leeds - Wakefield (both stations):

• XX09 to Nottingham (GBR EM)
• XX20 to Doncaster (GBR NE)
• XX27 to Knottingley via Wakefield (Metro)
• XX32 to Sheffield via Castleford (GBR EM)
• XX38 to Lincoln Central (GBR EM)
• XX48 to Sheffield via Moorthorpe (GBR NE)

What do you think?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jan 2025 ==

Sorry, a few things I didn't mention:

MetroTrain: my new idea for MetroTrain would work similar to the Leeds Core Bus Network, with certain routes within WY and beyond having a minimum of 3tph excluding TPE, LNER and XC (some timings have been altered)

• Only within WY due to MCard zones.

• Forgot to mention HS2, I am likely one of many who feel Leeds very much needs HS2. To get HS2 back to Leeds, I would start constructing HS2 from the Leeds end to link it to the London end.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jan 2025 ==

GBR East Midlands:

• Northern: Leeds - Barnsley - Sheffield stopper
• Northern: Leeds - Nottingham
• Northern: Leeds - Lincoln Central

I would also include the Huddersfield - Sheffield / Lincoln service in GBR EM

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jan 2025 ==

This is an updated version of my ideas, with some of the feedback from you guys.

 

[Halifaxlad]

New Services I would like to see are:

Rochdale - Huddersfield (Post TRU)

Utilizing the bay platform at Rochdale and the slow lines into Huddersfield post TRU.

Sheffield - Wakefield - Halifax - Bradford ideally as an extension of MML service.

Skipton - Ikley

New Stations I would like to see are:

Horbury

Elland but in its orignal location which is much better suited and will avoid the inveitable i.e repeating what happened with White Rose, another station on an embankment.