Suggestions for future use of Class 332s post-HEx

[Energy]

I don't know why there's an obsession with "donating" the 332s to Northern. If they need more electric units, they'll order another 331 batch.

Agreed, aren't the 332s in a bad state now anyway?

 

[LOL The Irony]

Reports coming from the 333 refurb thread the 333 009 has serious structural issues. Could a/some carriage/s from the best 332 be "donated" to help the cause?

 

[JN114]

Reports coming from the 333 refurb thread the 333 009 has serious structural issues. Could a/some carriage/s from the best 332 be "donated" to help the cause?

It’s unlikely the older but otherwise structurally similar 332s are going to offer any improvement. Given on at least 3 occasions in the past 5 years the entire 332 fleet has been withdrawn from service due to structural issues...

 

[Metal_gee_man]

If platform length precludes anything longer than 6 cars where the 333 runs, could the intermediate carriages be added to a 4 car units, no TWPS no problem as there are no driving cars, a simple interior change and northern "could" fix their overcrowding under the wires in Yorkshire, but of course they won't because even with the operator of resort on place, they aren't interested in improving services and spending money op North

 

[JN114]

If platform length precludes anything longer than 6 cars where the 333 runs, could the intermediate carriages be added to a 4 car units, no TWPS no problem as there are no driving cars, a simple interior change and northern "could" fix their overcrowding under the wires in Yorkshire, but of course they won't because even with the operator of resort on place, they aren't interested in improving services and spending money op North

And we’ll just ignore all the structural issues and ownership hurdles that are going to cost ££££££ to overcome.

 

[NoMorePacers]

If platform length precludes anything longer than 6 cars where the 333 runs, could the intermediate carriages be added to a 4 car units, no TWPS no problem as there are no driving cars, a simple interior change and northern "could" fix their overcrowding under the wires in Yorkshire, but of course they won't because even with the operator of resort on place, they aren't interested in improving services and spending money op North

Not too add most of the platforms aren't long enough for 6 car trains, so they'd need either extensions or fitting with ASDO (which is a resounding success on the newer CAF units so far, as all the erroneous door lockings and wrong sides will tell you).

 

[D365]

If platform length precludes anything longer than 6 cars where the 333 runs, could the intermediate carriages be added to a 4 car units, no TWPS no problem as there are no driving cars, a simple interior change and northern "could" fix their overcrowding under the wires in Yorkshire, but of course they won't because even with the operator of resort on place, they aren't interested in improving services and spending money op North

I think lack of TPWS is the least of your worries in this scenario...

 

[toby_farman]

I think lack of TPWS is the least of your worries in this scenario...

No it's a big deal. That being said, it would be fairly easy to make all 332s 4 cars, fit TPWS, refurbish and reclassify them as a new 333 subclass.

"Broken up, what a shame! Broken up, what a shame!"

 

[JN114]

No it's a big deal. That being said, it would be fairly easy to make all 332s 4 cars, fit TPWS, refurbish and reclassify them as a new 333 subclass.

"Broken up, what a shame! Broken up, what a shame!"

It really wouldn’t.

 

[toby_farman]

It really wouldn’t.

Why not?

Of course CAF and Seimens would have to do it.

 

[t_star2001uk]

No it's a big deal. That being said, it would be fairly easy to make all 332s 4 cars, fit TPWS, refurbish and reclassify them as a new 333 subclass.

But who would pay for the work? Dos Heathrow want to sell them to another train operator/ ROSCO? Why would a ROSCO be interested when they already have TPWS fitted stock that is potentially spare.

 

[JN114]

Why not?

Of course CAF and Seimens would have to do it.

Because if it were that simple they’d have been fitted with TPWS when it was made mandatory to do so and the DfT was paying for it rather than being granted a derogation for it not to be used.

The braking control systems on the 332s are built around ATP, which you can’t interface into externally. You’d basically have to rebuild the brake control electronics from scratch, which is horrendously expensive - even on the trailer vehicles.

 

[Energy]

There is no shortage of emus at the moment so a unit which has structural issues, would need its brake electronics redone from scratch to work elsewhere and is a small fleet isn't going to be popular compared to 379s or 350/2s.

 

[ben2012]

is there any update on the 332s or confirmation that they will be scrapped
I think the conversation to 333s would be a good idea or make some sets of 4car out of the fleet

 

[JonathanH]

I think the conversation to 333s would be a good idea or make some sets of 4car out of the fleet

Are there not 13 pages of posts in this thread which set out valid reasons why conversion of this fleet to 333s isn't going to happen?

 

[Energy]

is there any update on the 332s or confirmation that they will be scrapped
I think the conversation to 333s would be a good idea or make some sets of 4car out of the fleet

ETCS tests are currently happening, once these have happened 387s will take over from 332s and 345s will take over from 360s.

On the future of 332s, the lack of any updates on their future makes it look likely that they will be scrapped as the only ROSCO who would take them is Angel, who own the 332s, but the many issues listed over this thread show why this is a bad idea. Their current owner, Heathrow Airport, will want to scrap them or sell them as they are an airport not a ROSCO.

 

[JN114]

Are there not 13 pages of posts in this thread which set out valid reasons why conversion of this fleet to 333s isn't going to happen?

A fair number of which from people who work with them every single day.

There isn’t any “official” confirmation no, but it doesn’t make economical, technical or logical sense to do anything other than scrap them, after the limited number of compatible parts are harvested to bolster the 333 spares pool.

ETCS tests are currently happening, once these have happened 387s will take over from 332s and 345s will take over from 360s.

On the future of 332s, the lack of any updates on their future makes it look likely that they will be scrapped as the only ROSCO who would take them is Angel who own the 332s but the many issues listed over this thread show why this is a bad idea. Their current owner, Heathrow Airport, will want to scrap them or sell them as they are an airport not a ROSCO.

As far as I’m aware - MTR/TfL/Crossrail have all the signatures and bits of paper they need to run the 345s on the Airport branch - ETCS is “live” and available for use from an infrastructure perspective. The current hurdles left for them as far as I know are driver training levels not being there to enable full/reliable service with 345s, and the current suspension of operation of 9 car 345s which are the only units with ETCS turned on in the software.

On our (GWR/HEX) side, 387s are still undergoing their ETCS validation and acceptance, both at Melton and on the Heathrow branch. 387134+387139 have moved to West Ealing tonight for use on test trains tomorrow night (Friday/Saturday) - which should generate more data and take us a step closer to 387s replacing 332s. But there’s a lot of driver training still to complete - the HEX drivers that do sign 387s only do so in “classic” mode, they haven’t had ETCS conversion yet; and there’s still a fair number of them who are 332-only still.

 

[Tobbes]

On the future of 332s, the lack of any updates on their future makes it look likely that they will be scrapped as the only ROSCO who would take them is Angel, who own the 332s, but the many issues listed over this thread show why this is a bad idea. Their current owner, Heathrow Airport, will want to scrap them or sell them as they are an airport not a ROSCO.

Makes sense. But as they are an important part of the story of privatisation, I hope that a set is saved for the NRM.

 

[MarkyT]

ETCS tests are currently happening, once these have happened 387s will take over from 332s and 345s will take over from 360s.

On the future of 332s, the lack of any updates on their future makes it look likely that they will be scrapped as the only ROSCO who would take them is Angel, who own the 332s, but the many issues listed over this thread show why this is a bad idea. Their current owner, Heathrow Airport, will want to scrap them or sell them as they are an airport not a ROSCO.

I suppose it's plausible that Angel might want to bid for some whole sets, vehicles or just recovered spares from them before breaking to help keep their 333s going, but without an identified service need for them there isn't much hope of a wholesale fleet purchase, but you never know. I mean no-one had any hope for the 442s...

 

[Energy]

As far as I’m aware - MTR/TfL/Crossrail have all the signatures and bits of paper they need to run the 345s on the Airport branch - ETCS is “live” and available for use from an infrastructure perspective. The current hurdles left for them as far as I know are driver training levels not being there to enable full/reliable service with 345s, and the current suspension of operation of 9 car 345s which are the only units with ETCS turned on in the software.

The ORR tweeted out to confirm they have authorised ETCS on Heathrow for 345s, looking in the 345 thread I think there is some 9 car operation so we should see 345s to Heathrow soon.

On our (GWR/HEX) side, 387s are still undergoing their ETCS validation and acceptance, both at Melton and on the Heathrow branch. 387134+387139 have moved to West Ealing tonight for use on test trains tomorrow night (Friday/Saturday) - which should generate more data and take us a step closer to 387s replacing 332s. But there’s a lot of driver training still to complete - the HEX drivers that do sign 387s only do so in “classic” mode, they haven’t had ETCS conversion yet; and there’s still a fair number of them who are 332-only still.

Interesting, I was aware that the 387s are still undergoing their tests but didn't know that some drivers had been trained on 'classic' mode 387s.

Makes sense. But as they are an important part of the story of privatisation, I hope that a set is saved for the NRM.

Doesn't really make sense to me. The first units ordered in privatisation were the 168s so they don't get that, they are fairly standard EMUs with not much of interest.

I suppose it's plausible that Angel might want to bid for some whole sets, vehicles or just recovered spares from them before breaking to help keep their 333s going, but without an identified service need for them there isn't much hope of a wholesale fleet purchase, but you never know. I mean no-one had any hope for the 442s...

If (well more likely when) they go to the scrap yard the useful bits will be taken of first and these would likely be purchased as spares for 333s, Angel will likely not bother purchasing a whole unit when they can just purchase bits of the scrap yard. No one had much hope for the 442 but they could run on large amounts of the southern region, because of the lack of TPWS the 332s can only run on Heathrow unless they get a pricey rebuild.

 

[paulravuslante]

As far as I’m aware - MTR/TfL/Crossrail have all the signatures and bits of paper they need to run the 345s on the Airport branch - ETCS is “live” and available for use from an infrastructure perspective. The current hurdles left for them as far as I know are driver training levels not being there to enable full/reliable service with 345s, and the current suspension of operation of 9 car 345s which are the only units with ETCS turned on in the software.

On MTR side we were literally set to start taking 345s out in service in mid June - notices had been issued to that effect and still are being issued. The rosters issued for the May timetable change also included 345 operation to Heathrow. Therefore I believe it is purely the software issue on 345s preventing their entry into service.

 

[JN114]

On MTR side we were literally set to start taking 345s out in service in mid June - notices had been issued to that effect and still are being issued. The rosters issued for the May timetable change also included 345 operation to Heathrow. Therefore I believe it is purely the software issue on 345s preventing their entry into service.

That’s positive then - I know there were one or two false starts in the early days of the May TT, and it was never clear why they’d been pulled but driver training paths were still running - but yeah good to hear it’s ready to go.

 

[Mollman]

Doesn't really make sense to me. The first units ordered in privatisation were the 168s so they don't get that, they are fairly standard EMUs with not much of interest.

HEx was however the first electric service on the GWML and the first successful Open Access domestic passenger operation (Eurostar should probably be counted as an OAO even though BR was originally a shareholder).

 

[Energy]

HEx was however the first electric service on the GWML

Is that enough of a point though to justify it in a museum? I don't remember the first electric units on other main lines being in the museum so what makes the GWML special?

the first successful Open Access domestic passenger operation (Eurostar should probably be counted as an OAO even though BR was originally a shareholder).

But construction originally started under BR?

 

[MarkyT]

As well as open access and private finance, Heathrow Express was also the first mainline operation where compulsory automatic train protection was written into the safety case. It was a first in so many ways including pioneering overseas manufacture of rolling stock. However, multiple units, especially electric ones, are a very difficult proposition for preservation and are unlikely to ever operate again unless a group can obtain and keep mainline certification. I like the Japanese approach where a driving car or two are usually preserved from defunct iconic units for museum display. A 332 driving car restored to original condition would make an interesting exhibit for a railway museum, or even an aviation exhibit somewhere representing the first major airport led investment in fast rail access.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Are there not 13 pages of posts in this thread which set out valid reasons why conversion of this fleet to 333s isn't going to happen?

My idea of stripping the 332's for spare parts for the class 333's is the only plausable solution to these soon-to-be-redundant units. Surely all the visible parts would fit onto a 333, anything that can't be recovered for spares is scrapped.

 

[Energy]

Heathrow Express was also the first mainline operation where compulsory automatic train protection was written into the safety case.

I don't think the public would find that too interesting, the museum needs things which the public have an interest in or is revolutionary in a big way so people are coming into the museum otherwise the thing is wasted space.

 

[Bevan Price]

I suppose it's plausible that Angel might want to bid for some whole sets, vehicles or just recovered spares from them before breaking to help keep their 333s going, but without an identified service need for them there isn't much hope of a wholesale fleet purchase, but you never know. I mean no-one had any hope for the 442s...

I suppose one alternative option might be if an overseas railway is looking for some 25Kv emus at a "bargain" price ??

 

[MarkyT]

I don't think the public would find that too interesting, the museum needs things which the public have an interest in or is revolutionary in a big way so people are coming into the museum otherwise the thing is wasted space.

Clearly that wouldn't be the primary focus of any such exhibit. As a striking train design, which the 332 undoubtedly is, representing the first purpose-built mainline railway built for airport access, it could be fairly interesting I would argue, and the ATP thing could be included on a panel as part of the display context.

 

[43096]

As well as open access and private finance, Heathrow Express was also the first mainline operation where compulsory automatic train protection was written into the safety case. It was a first in so many ways including pioneering overseas manufacture of rolling stock. However, multiple units, especially electric ones, are a very difficult proposition for preservation and are unlikely to ever operate again unless a group can obtain and keep mainline certification. I like the Japanese approach where a driving car or two are usually preserved from defunct iconic units for museum display. A 332 driving car restored to original condition would make an interesting exhibit for a railway museum, or even an aviation exhibit somewhere representing the first major airport led investment in fast rail access.

Where were those Class 59s built, then?