Suggestions for Dawlish avoiding route(s)

[HowardGWR]

And Torbay, population 130,000 and rising. Where do you think Exeter gets most if its workforce?!

They're nearly all retired in Fawlty land aren't they?

Actually that is not only wrong of course, but if a decent commuter service had existed long ago, there would not have been the 'need' to build yet another bypass. Imagine a direct line whisking Torbay commuters to Exeter 'around the back'.

 

[Bald Rick]

...but if a decent commuter service had existed long ago, there would not have been the 'need' to build yet another bypass.

Oh I think there would. I would be surprised if anything but a small percentage of commuters using the A380 live and work near enough to stations either end to make a transfer to rail worthwhile.

 

[Woody]

Back in 1985 British Rail set up a high speed run from Paddington to Plymouth and a journey time of 2 hours 21 minutes was achieved.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1EK1Md5-mc
Just fast forward to 31 minutes 30 seconds
If you go right back to 1904 a GWR "ocean mail" special ran from Plymouths Millbay docks to Paddington via Bristol in just 3 hours 46 minutes, the same time as taken today by the 0730 Paddington to Penzance service! That cant be right.
It may be hard for some people from outside of Devon and Cornwall to comprehend this but the big economic problem now facing Plymouths economy is not the difference in rail journey times between say 2 hours 59/3 hours 7 minutes or whatever from Paddington to Plymouth but the one hour (2 stops) by rail it takes for the relatively short distance within Devon itself from Exeter to Plymouth which makes Plymouth seem much further away from London than it actually is. I can drive from Plymouth to Tiverton Parkway in an easy 50 minutes!. Taken along with the M5 ending at Exeter and the launch of an air link from Exeter to London City airport on October 27th, and Plymouth losing its airport in 2011, it is now very hard indeed to get investors to look beyond Exeter to Plymouth in these circumstances especially when your located on a narrowing peninsula where all the main quality transport infrastructure converges/terminates at Exeter. That's why the government is subsidising air links now from Newquay to Gatwick.
And this historical problem is now being compounded still further by the massive rail investments taking or about to take place in London and the south east, Great Western and Midland main line electrification, HS2/HS3 etc etc. Spending per head of population in the far south west is way below the that elsewhere. All that's being asked for by Devon and Cornwall generally and Plymouth in particular is their fair share of the national cake, that's all.

 

[yorksrob]

For the distance, I'm not at all convinced that the one hour journey between Exeter and Plymouth is that unusual. Yes, there are only two intermediate stations, but this has more to do with the rest of them being closed. In my experience, on a trip to the South West, this section goes by relatively quickly and doesn't seem particularly slow compared to other mainline inter-urban journeys such as London to Brighton or Leeds and Sheffield to Manchester.

 

[34104]

Back in 1985 British Rail set up a high speed run from Paddington to Plymouth and a journey time of 2 hours 21 minutes was achieved.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1EK1Md5-mc
Just fast forward to 31 minutes 30 seconds
If you go right back to 1904 a GWR "ocean mail" special ran from Plymouths Millbay docks to Paddington via Bristol in just 3 hours 46 minutes, the same time as taken today by the 0730 Paddington to Penzance service! That cant be right.
It may be hard for some people from outside of Devon and Cornwall to comprehend this but the big economic problem now facing Plymouths economy is not the difference in rail journey times between say 2 hours 59/3 hours 7 minutes or whatever from Paddington to Plymouth but the one hour (2 stops) by rail it takes for the relatively short distance within Devon itself from Exeter to Plymouth which makes Plymouth seem much further away from London than it actually is. I can drive from Plymouth to Tiverton Parkway in an easy 50 minutes!. Taken along with the M5 ending at Exeter and the launch of an air link from Exeter to London City airport on October 27th, and Plymouth losing its airport in 2011, it is now very hard indeed to get investors to look beyond Exeter to Plymouth in these circumstances especially when your located on a narrowing peninsula where all the main quality transport infrastructure converges/terminates at Exeter. That's why the government is subsidising air links now from Newquay to Gatwick.
And this historical problem is now being compounded still further by the massive rail investments taking or about to take place in London and the south east, Great Western and Midland main line electrification, HS2/HS3 etc etc. Spending per head of population in the far south west is way below the that elsewhere. All that's being asked for by Devon and Cornwall generally and Plymouth in particular is their fair share of the national cake, that's all.

When Plymouth Argyle played at Wembley in the 1996 play offs, four special trains were arranged from Plymouth which ran non-stop [after picking up from various points in Cornwall] to Paddington and the journey time was certainly less than three hours, about 2 hrs 45 minutes as I recall. Who knows, there may be an opportunity to do the same at the end of this season. Rather not though-automatic promotion would be a more than adequate substitute.

 

[Rich McLean]

When Plymouth Argyle played at Wembley in the 1996 play offs, four special trains were arranged from Plymouth which ran non-stop [after picking up from various points in Cornwall] to Paddington and the journey time was certainly less than three hours, about 2 hrs 45 minutes as I recall. Who knows, there may be an opportunity to do the same at the end of this season. Rather not though-automatic promotion would be a more than adequate substitute.

I hope we (Argyle) get Automatic promotion too.

However, Back on Topic, as this is not TFF

 

[LateThanNever]

For the distance, I'm not at all convinced that the one hour journey between Exeter and Plymouth is that unusual. Yes, there are only two intermediate stations, but this has more to do with the rest of them being closed. In my experience, on a trip to the South West, this section goes by relatively quickly and doesn't seem particularly slow compared to other mainline inter-urban journeys such as London to Brighton or Leeds and Sheffield to Manchester.

By road it is about 35 miles (but think it's closer to 50 by rail?). An hour is a long time, when the journey by road generally takes around 45 minutes depending on where in Plymouth/Exeter you want to be.So the rail journey is woefully uncompetitive, all the more so as the train dumps you at St David's, when you want Central! But of course the Devon banks/switchbacks don't help, so you'd either need new alignments or possibly tilt (though I doubt the equipment is sea water proof?) or engineer a reopened Okehampton route for 125mph...

 

[snowball]

By road it is about 35 miles (but think it's closer to 50 by rail?).

45 by road according to Google Maps, 52 by rail according to railmiles.

 

[LateThanNever]

45 by road according to Google Maps, 52 by rail according to railmiles.

Sorry, quite right - typo meant 'about 45'...

 

[yorksrob]

By road it is about 35 miles (but think it's closer to 50 by rail?). An hour is a long time, when the journey by road generally takes around 45 minutes depending on where in Plymouth/Exeter you want to be.So the rail journey is woefully uncompetitive, all the more so as the train dumps you at St David's, when you want Central! But of course the Devon banks/switchbacks don't help, so you'd either need new alignments or possibly tilt (though I doubt the equipment is sea water proof?) or engineer a reopened Okehampton route for 125mph...

Ah, I must admit, I've never been between the two by road. Perhaps it's the comparison with the slow journey through Cornwall.

Mind you, the railway must be doing something right as Exeter - Plymouth has always been rammed whenever I've been on it !

 

[Ash Bridge]

Ah, I must admit, I've never been between the two by road. Perhaps it's the comparison with the slow journey through Cornwall.

Mind you, the railway must be doing something right as Exeter - Plymouth has always been rammed whenever I've been on it !

The thing is, for me at least, travel fatigue sets in much sooner on a road journey compared to the train, e.g. 1.5 hours on a quality train like a HST or similar passes so quickly and can even be very relaxing. Whereas after 40mins or so in a car starts to get tedious, and please don't even mention buses!

 

[yorksrob]

The thing is, for me at least, travel fatigue sets in much sooner on a road journey compared to the train, e.g. 1.5 hours on a quality train like a HST or similar passes so quickly and can even be very relaxing. Whereas after 40mins or so in a car starts to get tedious, and please don't even mention buses!

Absolutely true. The female members of my family, who aren't railway enthusiasts would tend to choose an hours train over 45m car journey for that reason. Less so, the longer the journey.

 

[Bald Rick]

The thing is, for me at least, travel fatigue sets in much sooner on a road journey compared to the train, e.g. 1.5 hours on a quality train like a HST or similar passes so quickly and can even be very relaxing. Whereas after 40mins or so in a car starts to get tedious, and please don't even mention buses!

That depends what you are driving and the roads you are on. I drove Plzen to Brugge in 9 hours one Sunday and it was a joy. Whereas London - Glasgow on the 1630 can get positively weary.

Although I will agree that in general travel fatigue sets in much more easily on the roads than on the rails. It's a bit difficult to get up and stretch your legs on the M6.

 

[HowardGWR]

That depends what you are driving and the roads you are on. I drove Plzen to Brugge in 9 hours one Sunday and it was a joy. .

That sounds like that sort of petrolhead statement that is made fun of. I am sure that does not apply to you. I assume you stopped every 2 - 3 hours for R and R. Seriously, if one were to do a non-stop journey of that nature, one would be a danger to everyone on the road. That is what is so strange about road transport. Rail safety is examined to the nth degree, but if it's on road, it's the wild west and that's OK. Strange.

 

[Bald Rick]

That sounds like that sort of petrolhead statement that is made fun of. I am sure that does not apply to you. I assume you stopped every 2 - 3 hours for R and R. Seriously, if one were to do a non-stop journey of that nature, one would be a danger to everyone on the road. That is what is so strange about road transport. Rail safety is examined to the nth degree, but if it's on road, it's the wild west and that's OK. Strange.

Yep, an hour at Würzburg services, and a splash and dash near Maastricht. But there were plenty of dangers on the road, mostly with 3 pointed stars on the bonnet approaching from the rear at 200kph+

 

[21C101]

One thing that does seem to be coming out of the draft Wessex route study is that if the DfT insists on converting Basingstoke to Southampton to 25kV, the price will be 25kV from Basingstoke to Exeter to make the scheme viable, with much redoubling as well.

So, if the Wessex route study proposals get done....you have 25kV to Exeter via Salisbury, arriving facing north at St Davids Parkway, no electrification south of Bristol on the GW line with 40 year old HSTs on it, the Southern line mostly redoubled too, flyovers at Woking and Basingstoke and the suburban traffic disappearing down a crossrail tunnel at Raynes Park, more platforms than you can shake a stick at at Waterloo, the Dawlish route basically unelectrifiable and so twisty over the Devon banks that it has the speed of a branch line and a disused line over Dartmoor to Plymouth built on an alignment that would allow extensive 125mph running if relaid to a high standard.......

I wonder what might happen next........methinks there is more going on than is being publicised.....

<conspiracy theory>Electric services from Waterloo to Barnstaple/Plymouth dividing at Exeter Central, with the Berks and Hants singled and running an semi fast service from Paddington to Exeter Central and not beyond, and brunel spinning in his grave...... </conspiracy theory>

 

[Ash Bridge]

One thing that does seem to be coming out of the draft Wessex route study is that if the DfT insists on converting Basingstoke to Southampton to 25kV, the price will be 25kV from Basingstoke to Exeter to make the scheme viable, with much redoubling as well.

So, if the Wessex route study proposals get done....you have 25kV to Exeter via Salisbury, arriving facing north at St Davids Parkway, no electrification south of Bristol on the GW line with 40 year old HSTs on it, the Southern line mostly redoubled too, flyovers at Woking and Basingstoke and the suburban traffic disappearing down a crossrail tunnel at Raynes Park, more platforms than you can shake a stick at at Waterloo, the Dawlish route basically unelectrifiable and so twisty over the Devon banks that it has the speed of a branch line and a disused line over Dartmoor to Plymouth built on an alignment that would allow extensive 125mph running if relaid to a high standard.......

I wonder what might happen next........methinks there is more going on than is being publicised.....

<conspiracy theory>Electric services from Waterloo to Barnstaple/Plymouth dividing at Exeter Central, with the Berks and Hants singled and running an semi fast service from Paddington to Exeter Central and not beyond, and brunel spinning in his grave...... </conspiracy theory>

And Joseph Locke grinning like a Cheshire Cat from above

 

[Bald Rick]

I wonder what might happen next........methinks there is more going on than is being publicised.....

There isn't...

 

[Woody]

The Chancellor of the Exchequer has promised to shine light in some dark corners regarding transport investment in the (neglected, his words) South West in his Autumn statmement on December 3rd let see where we are after that. After all talk is cheap investment in transport infrastructure isnt.
The Prime Minister was in Newport South Wales yesterday to announce funding for rail electrification of the main line to Swansea as well as th Cardiff Valleys suburban network. http://*******.com/oall7pq What struck me is that it seems more important to the governemt to knock off 10 minites of the rail commuting commuting time on the Cardiff valleys into Cardiff from both Merthyr Tydfil and Treherbert to Cardiff and indeed all other main lines in Britain, than to knock 10 minutes off the dreadfully slow, under- invested Plymouth to Exeter so called "main line". Which is why I find some of the illogical comments made when any one suggests improving Plymouths very slow rail link west of Exeter. The inevitable logic if this policy continues is that the "main line" west of Exeter will effectively become downgraded to "regional" status, or is that the longer term plan?

 

[starrymarkb]

Yep, an hour at Würzburg services, and a splash and dash near Maastricht. But there were plenty of dangers on the road, mostly with 3 pointed stars on the bonnet approaching from the rear at 200kph+

Yep, or Porsche Crests Pretty much sums up my Autobahn experience and trying to pass trucks on the A44 in a 1l Polo is scary, the A38 east of Kassel was much more pleasant!

Also the car will have a effect on journey comfort. My current Audi (A2) with cruise control, air con and fully adjustable seats is far less tiring then the Polo (no aircon, v noisy at speed, numb bum after a couple of hours)

 

[Ash Bridge]

The Chancellor of the Exchequer has promised to shine light in some dark corners regarding transport investment in the (neglected, his words) South West in his Autumn statmement on December 3rd let see where we are after that. After all talk is cheap investment in transport infrastructure isnt.
The Prime Minister was in Newport South Wales yesterday to announce funding for rail electrification of the main line to Swansea as well as th Cardiff Valleys suburban network. http://*******.com/oall7pq What struck me is that it seems more important to the governemt to knock off 10 minites of the rail commuting commuting time on the Cardiff valleys into Cardiff from both Merthyr Tydfil and Treherbert to Cardiff and indeed all other main lines in Britain, than to knock 10 minutes off the dreadfully slow, under- invested Plymouth to Exeter so called "main line". Which is why I find some of the illogical comments made when any one suggests improving Plymouths very slow rail link west of Exeter. The inevitable logic if this policy continues is that the "main line" west of Exeter will effectively become downgraded to "regional" status, or is that the longer term plan?

Just looking at journey times Plymouth-Exeter St David's, the xx25 XC departures arrive EXD at xx20, 55mins journey time with 2 intermediate stops. The fastest non stop FGW HST is about 54mins, these times are no worse than the Manchester Picc.- Leeds TPE times, which is a slightly shorter distance, so not dreadfully slow really.

Yep, or Porsche Crests Pretty much sums up my Autobahn experience and trying to pass trucks on the A44 in a 1l Polo is scary, the A38 east of Kassel was much more pleasant!

Also the car will have a effect on journey comfort. My current Audi (A2) with cruise control, air con and fully adjustable seats is far less tiring then the Polo (no aircon, v noisy at speed, numb bum after a couple of hours)

Your Polo sounds like like luxury then, my wife owns a VW fox, 20 mins is pushing it in that before numb bum syndrome sets in

 

[MarkyT]

<conspiracy theory>Electric services from Waterloo to Barnstaple/Plymouth dividing at Exeter Central, with the Berks and Hants singled and running an semi fast service from Paddington to Exeter Central and not beyond, and brunel spinning in his grave...... </conspiracy theory>

I don't believe the B&H, as a fast cutoff to the west, was even envisaged during IKB's lifetime. It was stitched together much later with new construction joining a series of former branch and secondary lines. If the suggested singling and demotion of the line did come about, it would be subsequent GWR chairmen and engineers engaging in a fair degree of subterranean rotation, in which case I would suggest the attachment of a large cutting head and the setting of a course under the Haldon hills!

 

[yorksrob]

The inevitable logic if this policy continues is that the "main line" west of Exeter will effectively become downgraded to "regional" status, or is that the longer term plan?

I don't really see how.

So long as the line continues to carry mainline trains, it will remain a mainline.

 

[Woody]

Just looking at journey times Plymouth-Exeter St David's, the xx25 XC departures arrive EXD at xx20, 55mins journey time with 2 intermediate stops. The fastest non stop FGW HST is about 54mins, these times are no worse than the Manchester Picc.- Leeds TPE times, which is a slightly shorter distance, so not dreadfully slow really.


Your Polo sounds like like luxury then, my wife owns a VW fox, 20 mins is pushing it in that before numb bum syndrome sets in

Your comparing apples with pears. Manchester Picc.- Leeds is a Trans Pennine route, not the principal main line links between Manchester or Leeds and London which of course is provided by the fast Manchester to London West Coast (Euston) and Leeds to London East coast (Kings Cross) main lines. Similarly the principal role of the rail line between Plymouth and Exeter is to connect Devon and Cornwall to London as part of Great Westerns West of England main line and in that regard nothing has changed in over 30 odd years. Indeed electrification and faster journey times post 2018 on the Great Western main Line from Paddington to Swansea is simply going to further compound that problem.
That is why the "Peninsula Rail Task Force" representing all local authorities in Devon and Cornwall are saying "it has secured cross-party, region-wide support for a £5 billion to £7 billion investment package" and that "Cornwall, Devon and Somerset politicians and business leaders were “rock solid united”. This is not just a Plymouth thing.
http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk...221-5bn-rail/story-24514558-detail/story.html
The far south west is tired of being completely ignored. Even Prime Minister David Cameron himself has acknowledged the South West’s “precarious” transport links and urged the region to speak with “one voice” on upgrading the railways which is what the Peninsula Rail Task Force is now doing.
To think any different now is clearly a case of "nowt so blind as those who don't want to see". End off.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just out of interest that 1904 GWR "ocean mail" special I previously mentioned which ran from Plymouths Millbay docks to Paddington via Bristol in just 3 hours 46 minutes, covered the 52 rail miles between Plymouth and Exeter in just 56 minutes! That's slightly faster than most FGW Paddington HSTs do today 110 years on!

 

[Ash Bridge]

Just out of interest that 1904 GWR "ocean mail" special I previously mentioned which ran from Plymouths Millbay docks to Paddington via Bristol in just 3 hours 46 minutes, covered the 52 rail miles between Plymouth and Exeter in just 56 minutes! That's slightly faster than most FGW Paddington HSTs do today 110 years on!

Just had a look at A Regional History of the Railways of Great Britain Volume 1 The West Country by David St John Thomas. From what I've read that was a pass (Not Start time) at Plymouth North Rd. Of 9.26 mins. And a pass (not arrival time) of 10.22 mins at Exeter (dosen't state St David's) the train was formed of 5 eight wheel vans and no passengers. Also FGWs fastest non stop HST currently manages Plymouth-Exeter in 54mins. Start to Stop. Also going back a little looking at the May-Sept 2003 timetable, the fastest GW Plymouth-Exeter non stop (18.03 Dep.) arrived at Exeter St D. At 18.53. Just 53 minutes! Also found another one from 2003 Virgin XC Exeter St David's Dep. 16.46 Plymouth Arr. 17.41. 55mins. Including a call at Newton Abbot!

 

[Woody]

Just had a look at A Regional History of the Railways of Great Britain Volume 1 The West Country by David St John Thomas. From what I've read that was a pass (Not Start time) at Plymouth North Rd. Of 9.26 mins. And a pass (not arrival time) of 10.22 mins at Exeter (dosen't state St David's) the train was formed of 5 eight wheel vans and no passengers. Also FGWs fastest non stop HST currently manages Plymouth-Exeter in 54mins. Start to Stop. Also going back a little looking at the May-Sept 2003 timetable, the fastest GW Plymouth-Exeter non stop (18.03 Dep.) arrived at Exeter St D. At 18.53. Just 53 minutes! Also found another one from 2003 Virgin XC Exeter St David's Dep. 16.46 Plymouth Arr. 17.41. 55mins. Including a call at Newton Abbot!

53/54/56 minutes, one stop/two stops, passengers, no passengers whatever, your deliberately missing the point, its the relatively little change that has been achieved in 110 years WEST OF EXETER compared to every other main line to London that is the point. The Dawlish avoiding line with construction due to start in 1939 and finish in 1941 along with a further new route westward from Newton Abbot bypassing the notoriosly slow Dainton and Rattery banks which was surveyed at the same time was only stopped by the outbreak of war. In the normal flow of events these schemes would have now have long been a reality, not leaving us today with the problem of correcting that historical legacy. All political and business leaders and organisation within Devon, Cornwall and Somerset, even the Prime Minister himself now recognize that the far south west road and rail transport links to London have been neglected for far too long now and urgently need addressing so I am not sure where you are coming from apart from a desperate need for one upmanship. I therefore see no point in saying anything further on the matter other than to refer you once again to the following link.
http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk...221-5bn-rail/story-24514558-detail/story.html

 

[Ash Bridge]

53/54/56 minutes, one stop/two stops, passengers, no passengers whatever, your deliberately missing the point, its the relatively little change that has been achieved in 110 years WEST OF EXETER compared to every other main line to London that is the point. The Dawlish avoiding line with construction due to start in 1939 and finish in 1941 along with a further new route westward from Newton Abbot bypassing the notoriosly slow Dainton and Rattery banks which was surveyed at the same time was only stopped by the outbreak of war. In the normal flow of events these schemes would have now have long been a reality, not leaving us today with the problem of correcting that historical legacy. All political and business leaders and organisation within Devon, Cornwall and Somerset, even the Prime Minister himself now recognize that the far south west road and rail transport links to London have been neglected for far too long now and urgently need addressing so I am not sure where you are coming from apart from a desperate need for one upmanship. I therefore see no point in saying anything further on the matter other than to refer you once again to the following link.
http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk...221-5bn-rail/story-24514558-detail/story.html

First of all this nothing whatsoever to do with oneupmanship, at least not on my part, but the fact that you quoted a 1907 GWR publicity stunt as a comparison to today's normal scheduled operations when a fairer comparison would have been to the more recent publicity stunts by FGW & BR using HSTs! Now back to the Devon & Cornwall being badly neglected on transport matters (and others aswell) I couldn't agree with more. The thing is at the moment I strongly believe the most important thing is a resilient link for South Devon, Plymouth & Cornwall. To me it is an absolute no brainer that that the current mainline route through Dawlish is maintained at all costs until the time comes that it is impossible to do so (and hopefully that is several decades or more away just yet) and at the same time get rebuilding the former SR. route (or the second string as it was known before its short sighted closure) After this has been achieved a cut off route between Exeter & Plymouth could be looked at to improve journey times. Just to add its obvious looking at the ever increasing ridership between Plymouth & Exeter that the journey time isn't so bad that it's putting people off rail travel.

 

[21C101]

Y
That is why the "Peninsula Rail Task Force" representing all local authorities in Devon and Cornwall are saying "it has secured cross-party, region-wide support for a £5 billion to £7 billion investment package" and that "Cornwall, Devon and Somerset politicians and business leaders were “rock solid united”. This is not just a Plymouth thing.
http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk...221-5bn-rail/story-24514558-detail/story.html

That would stand more chance if they dropped the idea of four tracking Exeter to Newton Abbot which is about 3/5ths of the £5 billion and kept the rest as a rather more affordable £2 billion scheme.

The idea of spending up to £3.1 billion four tracking a line that currently has about five trains an hour each way is utterly absurd and undermines their case.

However do they think Chiltern manage to get 15 an hour out of two track Marylebone;ranging from expresses to Kidderminster via Birmingham to all stations to Surburban stoppers to West Ruislip that don't escape from Greater London, with a flat junction several miles out of Marylebone where the Aylesbury services go off and not even the luxury there is at Dawlish warren of a pair of platform loops; as they all got stripped out in the 70s, just a down loop at northolt and an up loop about 50 miles away at Princes Ris.

 

[Busaholic]

Tonight, out of nowhere, storm whipped up along Penzance Promenade, spray from waves hitting Queen's Hotel: when we get it, Dawlish generally gets it too within a couple of hours, but if all Voyagers are abed for the night may not have an effect this time, but tomorrow, who knows?

OKehampton: you know it makes sense.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Tonight, out of nowhere, storm whipped up along Penzance Promenade, spray from waves hitting Queen's Hotel: when we get it, Dawlish generally gets it too within a couple of hours, but if all Voyagers are abed for the night may not have an effect this time, but tomorrow, who knows?

OKehampton: you know it makes sense.

Fingers crossed, we may get something to raise our hopes this coming Wednesday?