Suggestions for Dawlish avoiding route(s)

[The Ham]

I simply cant understand why the Okehampton lobby keep quoting £3bn for the cut off options. The report quotes £1.6bn for option C4 and there should be plenty of scope to reduce that.

In the same way that there should be plenty of scope to reduce the £0.875m for the route via Okehampton.

Option C5 is cheaper still than C4 and is only £1.5bn. However given the main advantage of the avoiding lines is that they porvide time savings, yet none of them provide more than 6 minutes of time saving.

Also the report lists (at table 9) how resilient the options are, yet C5 "Avoids a limited proportion of storm and flood risk" and C4 "Avoids a moderate proportion of storm and flood risk".

 

[HSTEd]

You won't get much less than £900m for the Okehampton option if you actually want a route that is useful for diversions.

And six minutes of time savings on every train of every day is a significant amount, especially considering how slow the railways are in the South West.

 

[21C101]

You won't get much less than £900m for the Okehampton option if you actually want a route that is useful for diversions.

And six minutes of time savings on every train of every day is a significant amount, especially considering how slow the railways are in the South West.

I would be very surprised if you could not do a single track 75mph line with a couple of passing loops, suitable for an hourly service for £250 million. All of 19 miles to reopen.

Waverley route is only £350 million and that is 30 miles long with dynamic loops and a new bridge under the dual carriagway edinburgh bypass.

 

[Woody]

The first priority for any government rail investment anywhere is to serve the main centres of economic activity and in Devon and Cornwalls mostly rural/seasonal economy that means the cities of Exeter (118k) and Plymouth (261k). While railway history has been kind to Exeter it has not been so for Plymouth. Therefore if your going to spend a large sum of money now on the railways west of Exeter it is inconceivable if those improvements simply produce basically more of the same west of Exeter to Plymouth. Yes by all means reconnect the likes of Tavistock and Okehampton, but that must be in addition to improvements to the existing South Devon main line to Plymouth which together with Exeter are still the two main rail profit centres west of Bristol.
The following comment by a local Plymouth businessman appeared in my local newspaper on November 15th and says it all really.
"My experiences of running a business near Plymouth- and have to regularly go to London... TRAIN- stupidly slow and expensive, unreliable in the winter, no WiFi so I don't bother with it. I detest arriving back at Plymouth which is hands down the worst station in the UK in my opinion. FLYING (to anywhere)- Newquay, forget it- (I have not quite worked out what the Airport is there for?), Exeter- pointless as not enough carriers to be competitive. So the end result is I have to drive either to London for business, or to Bristol or London to get a flight somewhere. However, when I came back from London last week the M4/M5 was just full of 50mph zones all there way down. I have lived in a few places, as a comparator for distance..When I lived in Newcastle I could get to London in 2.40 Hrs by train, use wifi on the train and get good deals (inc loyalty scheme). I could also get up to 7 flights a day with BA to London if I wanted to fly. I took public transport the other day to Exeter Airport it took 3 HOURS to go 50 miles from Plymouth- 3 HOURS!! I might have well have driven to Manchester for the extra hour or so- it is pathetic. Transport down here is pathetic and the region will never be able to compete unless transport is improved drastically. Having to drive everywhere in the 21st Century because it is the cheapest, fastest and most reliable is just plain stupid. The fact is transport links have got WORSE over the last few years as far as I can see- I can't work out who is doing anything about it as nothing changes."

 

[tadhatter]

Sounds like the poor bloke should change jobs to do something about it and/or join campaign for better transport aa he's clearly passionate about.

I was at Plymouth in August and have to partially agree with him. The station is a mere shadow of what it once was and needs less than half the platforms it has. The train ride from to and from Plymouth is infrequent and slow for pretty much any destination within a 50 mile radius. He's right about that!

 

[47802]

Exeter to Plymouth ought to be a 30min journey really but of course to do that would need a new fast line.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Exeter to Plymouth ought to be a 30min journey really but of course to do that would need a new fast line.

They could take the opportunity of reopening the Okehampton route, with rebuilt / new stretches of the line so as to have speeds of way over 100mph. Sorry just broke the Bank!
Imo Plymouth is a great City with huge potential.

 

[yorksrob]

"My experiences of running a business near Plymouth- and have to regularly go to London... TRAIN- stupidly slow and expensive, unreliable in the winter, no WiFi so I don't bother with it. I detest arriving back at Plymouth which is hands down the worst station in the UK in my opinion. FLYING (to anywhere)- Newquay, forget it- (I have not quite worked out what the Airport is there for?), Exeter- pointless as not enough carriers to be competitive. So the end result is I have to drive either to London for business, or to Bristol or London to get a flight somewhere. However, when I came back from London last week the M4/M5 was just full of 50mph zones all there way down. I have lived in a few places, as a comparator for distance..When I lived in Newcastle I could get to London in 2.40 Hrs by train, use wifi on the train and get good deals (inc loyalty scheme). I could also get up to 7 flights a day with BA to London if I wanted to fly. I took public transport the other day to Exeter Airport it took 3 HOURS to go 50 miles from Plymouth- 3 HOURS!! I might have well have driven to Manchester for the extra hour or so- it is pathetic. Transport down here is pathetic and the region will never be able to compete unless transport is improved drastically. Having to drive everywhere in the 21st Century because it is the cheapest, fastest and most reliable is just plain stupid. The fact is transport links have got WORSE over the last few years as far as I can see- I can't work out who is doing anything about it as nothing changes."

it's hard to see how it could take over three hours from Plymouth to Exeter by train, unless this was on one of the occasions when the line was shut. This businesman should be jumping at the chance to have an additional route between the two centres as this is the only way to guarantee that he won't be stuck with a three hour trip between Plymouth and Exeter.

Overall train times are more tricky as this possibly requires action East of Exeter as well. Perhaps some sections of loop to allow more express services to overtake the slower ones.

Wifi is an issue that is well within the TOC's remit to solve.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

The first priority for any government rail investment anywhere is to serve the main centres of economic activity and in Devon and Cornwalls mostly rural/seasonal economy that means the cities of Exeter (118k) and Plymouth (261k). While railway history has been kind to Exeter it has not been so for Plymouth. Therefore if your going to spend a large sum of money now on the railways west of Exeter it is inconceivable if those improvements simply produce basically more of the same west of Exeter to Plymouth. Yes by all means reconnect the likes of Tavistock and Okehampton, but that must be in addition to improvements to the existing South Devon main line to Plymouth which together with Exeter are still the two main rail profit centres west of Bristol.
The following comment by a local Plymouth businessman appeared in my local newspaper on November 15th and says it all really.
"My experiences of running a business near Plymouth- and have to regularly go to London... TRAIN- stupidly slow and expensive, unreliable in the winter, no WiFi so I don't bother with it. I detest arriving back at Plymouth which is hands down the worst station in the UK in my opinion. FLYING (to anywhere)- Newquay, forget it- (I have not quite worked out what the Airport is there for?), Exeter- pointless as not enough carriers to be competitive. So the end result is I have to drive either to London for business, or to Bristol or London to get a flight somewhere. However, when I came back from London last week the M4/M5 was just full of 50mph zones all there way down. I have lived in a few places, as a comparator for distance..When I lived in Newcastle I could get to London in 2.40 Hrs by train, use wifi on the train and get good deals (inc loyalty scheme). I could also get up to 7 flights a day with BA to London if I wanted to fly. I took public transport the other day to Exeter Airport it took 3 HOURS to go 50 miles from Plymouth- 3 HOURS!! I might have well have driven to Manchester for the extra hour or so- it is pathetic. Transport down here is pathetic and the region will never be able to compete unless transport is improved drastically. Having to drive everywhere in the 21st Century because it is the cheapest, fastest and most reliable is just plain stupid. The fact is transport links have got WORSE over the last few years as far as I can see- I can't work out who is doing anything about it as nothing changes."

I think Newquay Airport is there as there is, or was, an RAF base there.

Plymouth Airport would have had a larger catchment area I should have thought.

 

[sor]

I think Newquay Airport is there as there is, or was, an RAF base there.

It also has the benefit of being (imminently) subsidised with the Gatwick route. The cynic might suggest that this would be the government's excuse to not invest in better roads and rail, as everyone could just fly up to London in an hour instead.

Plymouth Airport would have had a larger catchment area I should have thought.

It's always been amazing how poorly Plymouth gets treated compared to Exeter despite there being double the population

 

[Woody]

Sounds like the poor bloke should change jobs to do something about it and/or join campaign for better transport aa he's clearly passionate about.

I was at Plymouth in August and have to partially agree with him. The station is a mere shadow of what it once was and needs less than half the platforms it has. The train ride from to and from Plymouth is infrequent and slow for pretty much any destination within a 50 mile radius. He's right about that!

Unfortunately he and others like him are considering doing something about it. Let me quote the rest of his letter which concludes, "I know many businesses in the area who are looking at actually moving up North, as it is far more business friendly. Unless places like Plymouth improve transport quickly- there will not be a lot left here. We seriously need to stop talking about this and do something, before it continues to get worse. I'm from here, and I love the region- but I'm very close to taking my business up to Newcastle, the place is literally buzzing, brilliantly connected and 'gets' what businesses need to succeed. Plymouth needs to be like that- but I think suffers from a major lack of vision."
All the talk of the "Greatest investment in Great Western since Brunel" has a pretty hollow ring in these parts. Historically Plymouth was largely a naval dominated city. Not so today, there is now a huge main central "Plymouth University" with 34,000 students and staff there just as stones throw from the railway station! That alone is bigger than most major towns in Devon and Cornwall as well a smaller university in the north of the city (University college of St Mark & St John). The cities College of Art has also applied for "university" status. It has the largest Science related business sector outside of Cambridge, and of course it still has huge naval Dockyard facilities at Devonport Dockyard which because it is the only licenced facility to carry out nuclear submarine refit/refuelling is still a crucial part of the nations defence.
The trouble is that over many decades government transport improvements has largely bypassed Plymouth meaning it has now fallen far behind everywhere else that now requires a huge investment just to catch up again with the rest of the country
Hence all the current political pre election interest by the main political parties.
http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/Lab...t/story-24539574-detail/story.html?afterReg=Y

http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/Ply...s-Chancellor/story-24562822-detail/story.html
As usual the Conservatives blame Labour and Labour blame the Conservatives for this historical transport mess. The political reality however is that ever since the war stopped construction of the "Dawlish Avoiding line" in 1939 both main political parties have simply turned a blind eye to rail infrastructure investment to and through the far south west put off no doubt by the price tag. However we have finally reached the point of no return on this one and all the political parties well know it.

 

[yorksrob]

I remember reading about an aspiration to get London - Plymouth rail journey's back down to 2 hours. Apparently this was do-able on a limited number of services when the HST's were introduced, but intermediate stops and crowded diagrams have made this impossible recently.

I wonder how much investment in loops etc would be necessary to allow this.

 

[Ash Bridge]

I remember reading about an aspiration to get London - Plymouth rail journey's back down to 2 hours. Apparently this was do-able on a limited number of services when the HST's were introduced, but intermediate stops and crowded diagrams have made this impossible recently.

I wonder how much investment in loops etc would be necessary to allow this.

Are you sure that wasn't 3 hours Rob?

 

[yorksrob]

Are you sure that wasn't 3 hours Rob?

Hmm. Perhaps. I've got it in a magazine somewhere.

It was something to do with businesses wanting to be within a 2 (or 3) hour radius from London.

 

[MarkyT]

Hmm. Perhaps. I've got it in a magazine somewhere.

It was something to do with businesses wanting to be within a 2 (or 3) hour radius from London.

I'm certain that the three hour journey time (not two!) to London is a long standing aspiration for Plymouth, although I'm wary about that being an absolute figure myself. Does a businessman really say to himself "ah 2 hours 59 minutes - lovely I'll catch the train" as opposed to "3 hours and 7 minute - bl**dy victoian nightmare - I'll move my entire operation to County Durham"? I think not! "Around 3 hours standard, reliably, every hour, all day, every day" would be a more powerful offer from a marketing point of view, and an unrepresentative journey time touted in this respect, achieved by an odd (usually off peak) train missing out some key stops en route to reach an arbitrary target does nothing for either the economics of the service along the whole corridor, nor for creating regular interval patterns that allow capacity for all services to be optimised.

 

[HowardGWR]

I think one has to add up how many of these 'businessmen' there are in the area. I put the word in inverted commas as he admitted his was a lifestyle choice, not necessarily an economic one.

It would be questionable if one spent £5 billions, say, just to get Mr 'Do something won't you" and a few dozen colleagues up to Heathrow. Cheaper to provide them with a daily Chinook perhaps. An analysis of reasons for travel on the SW routes might be interesting (including road and air share).

The last time I saw the percentages of long-distance personal transport on the A303 or even M4 / M5, it was very small, most users traveling 50 miles or fewer; in fact just local traffic mainly. It was different for HGVs and LGV white-van-man users. Even there, much is travelling from locally situated distribution depots, e.g. supermarket traffic.

Perhaps worth pondering on that, when the chancellor announces billions to be spent in December.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Around 4/5 years back I think FGW performed a trail run from Paddington-Plymouth non stop using a shortened HST set, managing the journey in about 2 hours 45mins? Don't know about Bi mode IEP, but surely a 220/222 could substantially improve on this (weather conditions on the sea wall permitting of course)

 

[HowardGWR]

Around 4/5 years back I think FGW performed a trail run from Paddington-Plymouth non stop using a shortened HST set, managing the journey in about 2 hours 45mins? Don't know about Bi mode IEP, but surely a 220/222 could substantially improve on this (weather conditions on the sea wall permitting of course)

I think that if three hours is a competitive time with air (the only other choice for speed) then it's competitive from Plymouth to London by definition. I actually think the time via Bristol could be faster, were it to be tried. It certainly was in steam days with a light train, even after the cutoff line was opened. That might be an interesting exercise. A non-stop via the extant Avoiding Line at St Philips Marsh. Choice of via Badminton or Bath, I think I would bet on the former. Anybody have timing data to compare?

Just remembered, you can't get on to the Bath line any more, unless you go via TM. Whoops red faced one

 

[21C101]

Completion of crossrail will cut about half an hour off the journey to london and benefit far more people than shorter journey times to Brunels suburban trainshed.

 

[LateThanNever]

I think one has to add up how many of these 'businessmen' there are in the area. I put the word in inverted commas as he admitted his was a lifestyle choice, not necessarily an economic one.

It would be questionable if one spent £5 billions, say, just to get Mr 'Do something won't you" and a few dozen colleagues up to Heathrow. Cheaper to provide them with a daily Chinook perhaps. An analysis of reasons for travel on the SW routes might be interesting (including road and air share).

The last time I saw the percentages of long-distance personal transport on the A303 or even M4 / M5, it was very small, most users traveling 50 miles or fewer; in fact just local traffic mainly. It was different for HGVs and LGV white-van-man users. Even there, much is travelling from locally situated distribution depots, e.g. supermarket traffic.

Perhaps worth pondering on that, when the chancellor announces billions to be spent in December.

This no long distance traffic on motorways I find hard to fathom. Perhaps having been so often one of them I rather doubt this. For a start no supermarket to my knowledge has a regional distribution centre west of Burnham-on Sea and most seem to distribute to the south west from Avonmouth, South Wales, Wiltshire or Hampshire! So I think they are definitely long distance. Anecdotal I know but to my certain knowledge there are three people who drive daily to Bristol from North Devon- that's more than 50 miles each way (and I don't know how they stand it!)
In the end it is probably that, until recently, Britain hasn't been good at links over hills. Think of transpennine trains which are still slow. The M62 was a great engineering challenge and took a long time to complete. If, as we are told, connectivity leads to economic prosperity, then Plymouth may be situated in a geographically beautiful location but as a City of .25million people it needs much better links to prosper. All the more so since it lost its airport! A reliable rail link is the least it should be able to expect and whilst it may not be ideal to have two 'fast' trains a day you have to start somewhere.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm certain that the three hour journey time (not two!) to London is a long standing aspiration for Plymouth, although I'm wary about that being an absolute figure myself. Does a businessman really say to himself "ah 2 hours 59 minutes - lovely I'll catch the train" as opposed to "3 hours and 7 minute - bl**dy victoian nightmare - I'll move my entire operation to County Durham"? I think not! "Around 3 hours standard, reliably, every hour, all day, every day" would be a more powerful offer from a marketing point of view, and an unrepresentative journey time touted in this respect, achieved by an odd (usually off peak) train missing out some key stops en route to reach an arbitrary target does nothing for either the economics of the service along the whole corridor, nor for creating regular interval patterns that allow capacity for all services to be optimised.

Yes, I know it seems strange. I think the argument is to do with cities being marketed as "three hours from London". Part psychological in some ways.

 

[HowardGWR]

Completion of crossrail will cut about half an hour off the journey to london and benefit far more people than shorter journey times to Brunels suburban trainshed.

??? Perhaps expand somewhat? I don't get it at all? What has this to do with Plymouth?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This no long distance traffic on motorways I find hard to fathom.

You need to carry out origin and destination surveys. Where these have been so carried out, they display what I wrote. Anecdote that you mentioned is no substitute. I know it is powerful evidence to oneself, but, well, I think you will get my point.

These surveys have been a long time now since last carried out, but I think they will be again, in connection with any projects that the Autumn Statement starts up (eg Stonehenge tunnel).

 

[21C101]

??? Perhaps expand somewhat? I don't get it at all? What has this to do with Plymouth?

A lot. Businessmen go from Plymouth to London not Plymouth to Paddington. Paddington is about 45 minutes away from London.

Crossrail will reduce this to about 15 minutes, hence knocking half an hour off the London Plymouth (and many many other) journeys.

 

[HowardGWR]

A lot. Businessmen go from Plymouth to London not Plymouth to Paddington. Paddington is about 45 minutes away from London.

Crossrail will reduce this to about 15 minutes, hence knocking half an hour off the London Plymouth (and many many other) journeys.

I am not there yet, so sorry. Could you describe this trip from Plymouth to London that will not involve both GW and (probably) Crossrail?

Where is your supposed end-destination? You say 'London' do you mean the City?

 

[alastair]

A lot. Businessmen go from Plymouth to London not Plymouth to Paddington. Paddington is about 45 minutes away from London.

Crossrail will reduce this to about 15 minutes, hence knocking half an hour off the London Plymouth (and many many other) journeys.

What are you on about?

According to the TFL website Paddington to (say) Oxford Circus takes 8 mins. If you were heading to (say) Bank then its 21 mins. Where in London would take 45mins from Paddington?

 

[Rapidash]

The first priority for any government rail investment anywhere is to serve the main centres of economic activity and in Devon and Cornwalls mostly rural/seasonal economy that means the cities of Exeter (118k) and Plymouth (261k).

And Torbay, population 130,000 and rising. Where do you think Exeter gets most if its workforce?!

 

[21C101]

What are you on about?

According to the TFL website Paddington to (say) Oxford Circus takes 8 mins. If you were heading to (say) Bank then its 21 mins. Where in London would take 45mins from Paddington?

And does the TFL website include the time from when you get off your HST to the time you get on the tube train (and the waiting time for the train) and the time to fight your way out at the other end, all in very crowded victorian stations?

 

[LateThanNever]

??? Perhaps expand somewhat? I don't get it at all? What has this to do with Plymouth?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


You need to carry out origin and destination surveys. Where these have been so carried out, they display what I wrote. Anecdote that you mentioned is no substitute. I know it is powerful evidence to oneself, but, well, I think you will get my point.

These surveys have been a long time now since last carried out, but I think they will be again, in connection with any projects that the Autumn Statement starts up (eg Stonehenge tunnel).

I agree with you broadly but I think that the surveys might be a bit out of date. But if road is short distance traffic - for people at least, but certainly not goods - then that means that Plymouth is entirely dependant on rail for long distance journeys, as it is without an airport... So it makes rail improvements all the more essential.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Completion of crossrail will cut about half an hour off the journey to london and benefit far more people than shorter journey times to Brunels suburban trainshed.

I agree, which is why I favour any reopened Okehampton route going to Waterloo. Paddington is fine for Oxford Street shopping but otherwise inconvenient for more or less everywhere.

 

[MarkyT]

According to the TFL website Paddington to (say) Oxford Circus takes 8 mins. If you were heading to (say) Bank then its 21 mins.

That is not the time to add to total anticipated journey time for an interchange however. Exiting and walking to the Bakerloo platforms for example from the back end of an HST would add at least 5 minutes, then there's a wait for the first train and you might choose to take the second or third due to crowding. If the Underground entrance is closed temporarily due to platform crowding (not uncommon if a few main line arrivals occur in particularly short order), then the interchange time alone might easily add up to 15 minutes or more. Crossrail will reduce the typical interchange time as well as the onward journey time to the city and beyond, and the likelihood of temporary closures for the Bakerloo will be significantly reduced as well for those who find that route still represents the best option.

 

[21C101]

That is not the time to add to total anticipated journey time for an interchange however. Exiting and walking to the Bakerloo platforms for example from the back end of an HST would add at least 5 minutes, then there's a wait for the first train and you might choose to take the second or third due to crowding. If the Underground entrance is closed temporarily due to platform crowding (not uncommon if a few main line arrivals occur in particularly short order), then the interchange time alone might easily add up to 15 minutes or more. Crossrail will reduce the typical interchange time as well as the onward journey time to the city and beyond, and the likelihood of temporary closures for the Bakerloo will be significantly reduced as well for those who find that route still represents the best option.

Yes Waterloo is much better placed

Walk to the west of the city/temple area over Waterloo Bridge
Direct link from platform to the drain for non stop shuttle to the City (Bank)
Change at Clapham junction for Victoria or short jorney Bakerloo/Jubilee/Northern for various parts of the west end.

I would imagine that when Western rationalised the route and stopped the fasts from Exeter Central to Waterloo (which were faster than the WR services to Paddington at the time) a lot of business travellers in Exeter were pretty fed up at having to travel from a parkway on the edge of Exeter to a parkway in the western suburbs of London.

Crossrail will make Paddington much more useful a destination.