Suggestions for Dawlish avoiding route(s)

[yorksrob]

As an improvement to the mainline has think it considerable benefit, in terms of some reduction in journey time and removing the risk of Dawlish being closed due to storm damage etc.

Many journeys Exeter to Plymouth and beyond are uncompetitive with road, some of the current replacement buses are as fast as the train service to some destinations, and I have photographed specials in Cornwall and then easily beaten them by car to get another photo around such as Starcross, so even moderate journey time improvements would be helpful.

Okehampton route will probably require a subsidy to operate the local service, the least used section in terms of passengers is likely to be the section that costs the most to reinstate, and can we really justify such high cost of a purely diversionary route. I think it would be more cost effective to do nothing or improve sea defences than reopen Okehampton.

Yes, but your seven miles, seven chains of new route isn't going to provide a substantial enough improvement in journey times in itself. This needs attention along the whole route, many improvements of which will be far more cost effective than such a cut-off. Whether the Okehampton route requires a subsidy or not, it will be used all year round by travellers.

 

[jmc100]

Furthermore, a reopened Okehampton line would not survive on Plymouth and Cornwall traffic alone.

I think it would more than survive if direct expresses from London to Plymouth or Penzance used the line with the Rewe - Sweetham 'chord' installed. There could even be a local Dartmoor and South Devon heritage service with no need for reversing at Exeter or Plymouth as the stations are orientated correctly.

 

[LateThanNever]

I think it would more than survive if direct expresses from London to Plymouth or Penzance used the line with the Rewe - Sweetham 'chord' installed. There could even be a local Dartmoor and South Devon heritage service with no need for reversing at Exeter or Plymouth as the stations are orientated correctly.

Think if you missed out Exeter you'd have to divide trains at Taunton on a fairly regular basis otherwise the service to Exeter/Torbay would be substantially reduced!

 

[TheKnightWho]

Think if you missed out Exeter you'd have to divide trains at Taunton on a fairly regular basis otherwise the service to Exeter/Torbay would be substantially reduced!

That isn't a bad idea, actually. You stop lesser-used services from taking up paths at the London end, and still have a regular service at the country end for the smaller routes.

 

[MarkyT]

Think if you missed out Exeter you'd have to divide trains at Taunton on a fairly regular basis otherwise the service to Exeter/Torbay would be substantially reduced!

With the existing network (once Dawlish is restored) a train to Cornwall from London or The North can serve Exeter, Newton Abbot for Torbay and Teignbridge, Totnes for South Hams. At each of these busy stations it can pick up new local business heading west to Plymouth and Cornwall to fill the seats vacated by long distance travellers. Splitting the service before Exeter makes very little sense, it becoming difficult to maintain useful service frequencies heading along each branch beyond the split at all times. Missing out the south west's premier transportation hub at Exeter St Davids by Plymouth and Cornwall trains risks either a substantial loss of much of the region's connnectivity or a considerable increase in other local services over the Totnes route to replace the diverted trains, and that may need additional revenue support.

 

[The Ham]

Think if you missed out Exeter you'd have to divide trains at Taunton on a fairly regular basis otherwise the service to Exeter/Torbay would be substantially reduced!

It depends on how many services missed out Exeter. anyway I'm sure there would be demand for a few more services from Torbay to London if more existed.

Of course splitting at Taunton could work if they were providing a more frequent service run with 221's so that there was additional services and faster journey times. Although just additional services would likely see a lot of use.

If it were to be 221's that would be an additional 250 seats per service to Plymouth and to Torbay as well as an additional 500 seats between London and Taunton, if it were IEP's that would be about 300 and 600 extra seats. It would also mean that the number of existing services which call at stations between Taunton and Exeter could reduce a little which would speed up some more of the existing services to Plymouth and Cornwall.

As the Chord would cut at least 10 minutes off having to go into Exeter and back out again it could make the Okehampton route a fairly competitive route to get to Plymouth from London (depending on how much of a time saving and how long going via Okehampton took. If the timings were such that it arrived in Plymouth about 15 minutes earlier than the services which were going via Dawlish then people would still use it even if it took 5-10 minutes longer. Although the best times would probably be those where there's more than half an hour gap between services at present to fill in those gaps (i.e. arriving between the two London services which arrive at 1306 and 1426 say at 1350 and those arriving at 1506 and 1622 say at 1545, as it would be almost certainly quicker than waiting for the next train, unless the route via Okehampton took over 100 minutes).

 

[Gadfly]

But a high-maintenance coastal route will, will it?

An direct inland route from Exeter to Newton Abbot would not be coastal.

 

[jmc100]

Think if you missed out Exeter you'd have to divide trains at Taunton on a fairly regular basis otherwise the service to Exeter/Torbay would be substantially reduced!

I was thinking more about the trains from Bristol and the North of England using the Rewe 'chord' route to travel over Dartmoor more so than the Paddington trains. With the link to Plymouth established over Dartmoor trains from Waterloo or Paddington could travel directly to Plymouth without calling at Exeter.

Of course, the south Devon route would still be the main line but just think of the possibilities that could be explored and opened up with the Dartmoor route reinstated.

 

[LateThanNever]

I was thinking more about the trains from Bristol and the North of England using the Rewe 'chord' route to travel over Dartmoor more so than the Paddington trains. With the link to Plymouth established over Dartmoor trains from Waterloo or Paddington could travel directly to Plymouth without calling at Exeter.

Of course, the south Devon route would still be the main line but just think of the possibilities that could be explored and opened up with the Dartmoor route reinstated.

Trains from Waterloo would pass through both Exeter Central and St David's and since that journey is not exactly fast why wouldn't they call?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It depends on how many services missed out Exeter. anyway I'm sure there would be demand for a few more services from Torbay to London if more existed.

Of course splitting at Taunton could work if they were providing a more frequent service run with 221's so that there was additional services and faster journey times. Although just additional services would likely see a lot of use.

If it were to be 221's that would be an additional 250 seats per service to Plymouth and to Torbay as well as an additional 500 seats between London and Taunton, if it were IEP's that would be about 300 and 600 extra seats. It would also mean that the number of existing services which call at stations between Taunton and Exeter could reduce a little which would speed up some more of the existing services to Plymouth and Cornwall.

As the Chord would cut at least 10 minutes off having to go into Exeter and back out again it could make the Okehampton route a fairly competitive route to get to Plymouth from London (depending on how much of a time saving and how long going via Okehampton took. If the timings were such that it arrived in Plymouth about 15 minutes earlier than the services which were going via Dawlish then people would still use it even if it took 5-10 minutes longer. Although the best times would probably be those where there's more than half an hour gap between services at present to fill in those gaps (i.e. arriving between the two London services which arrive at 1306 and 1426 say at 1350 and those arriving at 1506 and 1622 say at 1545, as it would be almost certainly quicker than waiting for the next train, unless the route via Okehampton took over 100 minutes).

The Okehampton route seems on the face of it to be potentially capable of faster speeds than the Dawlish one - it certainly seems to miss out on the 'switchback' style of the South Devon banks?

 

[Xavi]

There's been some talk about a Rewe cut off in order to access Plymouth via a re-opened Okehampton route without reversal at Exeter. My proposal would be a new chord from Hele to Pinhoe alongside the M5. This, in conjunction with a reopened Okehampton route would provide a route without reversal and give GW services access to Exeter St Davids avoiding Cowley Bridge if flooding occurs there. You'd then need problems at both Cowley and Dawlish to cut off Plymouth and Cornwall and, if either flooding or sea wall difficulties occur, a service with only moderate delays would be maintained for Plymouth and Cornwall.

The Okehampton route could be largely single with dynamic loops at Crediton to Yeoford, Okehampton and Tavistock. The normal service could be provided by an extension of Cardiff to Taunton services serving the proposed reopened stations at Cullompton and Wellington via the Hele chord thus serving the very popular shopping / commuter destination of Exeter Central and then continuing via Crediton to Plymouth.

What a political gem for relatively low cost this would be for the south west. Reopened stations, large communities in west Devon / North Cornwall given better access to the rail network, no more major impact from flooding at Cowley and Plymouth / Cornwall unlikely to be cut off totally again.

 

[LateThanNever]

There's been some talk about a Rewe cut off in order to access Plymouth via a re-opened Okehampton route without reversal at Exeter. My proposal would be a new chord from Hele to Pinhoe alongside the M5. This, in conjunction with a reopened Okehampton route would provide a route without reversal and give GW services access to Exeter St Davids avoiding Cowley Bridge if flooding occurs there. You'd then need problems at both Cowley and Dawlish to cut off Plymouth and Cornwall and, if either flooding or sea wall difficulties occur, a service with only moderate delays would be maintained for Plymouth and Cornwall.

The Okehampton route could be largely single with dynamic loops at Crediton to Yeoford, Okehampton and Tavistock. The normal service could be provided by an extension of Cardiff to Taunton services serving the proposed reopened stations at Cullompton and Wellington via the Hele chord thus serving the very popular shopping / commuter destination of Exeter Central and then continuing via Crediton to Plymouth.

What a political gem for relatively low cost this would be for the south west. Reopened stations, large communities in west Devon / North Cornwall given better access to the rail network, no more major impact from flooding at Cowley and Plymouth / Cornwall unlikely to be cut off totally again.

Wow! Hope it's low cost! It needs the already - alleged - improvements at Cowley Bridge and the viaduct between Exeter Cen and St David's might need rather better maintenance - but apart from that, Full Marks!

 

[Xavi]

Wow! Hope it's low cost! It needs the already - alleged - improvements at Cowley Bridge and the viaduct between Exeter Cen and St David's might need rather better maintenance - but apart from that, Full Marks!

Thinking about it, you'd probably be best to redouble Crediton to Cowley (singled in 1980s) as well to accommodate the Barnstaple services and minimise delays. So why don't we call it a good idea rather than relatively low cost! Still better value overall than Borders Railway (which I support) I reckon, but that's in Scotland...

 

[MarkyT]

My proposal would be a new chord from Hele to Pinhoe alongside the M5. This, in conjunction with a reopened Okehampton route would provide a route without reversal and give GW services access to Exeter St Davids avoiding Cowley Bridge if flooding occurs there. You'd then need problems at both Cowley and Dawlish to cut off Plymouth and Cornwall and, if either flooding or sea wall difficulties occur, a service with only moderate delays would be maintained for Plymouth and Cornwall.

About 10 km alongside the motorway all the way. As there are no road junctions along this section, roadworks should be minimal, perhaps largely widening bridges and earthworks. Would have to cross the M5 at some point to swing round towards the west and join the LSWR just before Pinhoe. The existing motorway overbridge there is only wide enough for a single track.

I would think to solve the Exe flooding issue it would be a lot less expensive to raise the existing route by two or three metres onto a new properly drained new structure for two or three km through the Cowley Bridge area. A problem with that is the A377 overbridge which would have to be renewed with a small road diversion for clearance, although that could allow a remodelling of the junction layout with an additional independent track or two for the Barnstaple/Okehampton route.

The Okehampton route could be largely single with dynamic loops at Crediton to Yeoford, Okehampton and Tavistock. The normal service could be provided by an extension of Cardiff to Taunton services serving the proposed reopened stations at Cullompton and Wellington via the Hele chord thus serving the very popular shopping / commuter destination of Exeter Central and then continuing via Crediton to Plymouth.

Would agree that if reopened on its own merits, a fast single line with dynamic loops would be the most practical and economic track configuration for the Okehampton route, although I think the most appropriate train service would be an extension of the Waterloo - Exeter trains to Plymouth with a limited number of stops. In addition to connecting stations en route to both Plymouth and Exeter, Plymouth would regain through service to Honiton, Axminster, Yeovil and Salisbury, and possibly Exeter Airport. The route wouldn't be competitive to London perhaps, but could nevertheless provide some very useful local and regional connectivity.

I am still convinced a DAL (together with retaining the existing coast route for locals) offers the best package of benefits for developing longer distance services to Plymouth and into Cornwall whilst preserving the local connectivity and cost effectiveness of operations along the route at attractive frequencies and journey times. However I am also keen to see the Okehampton route reinstated in some form at some time in the future as a regional link. This might be best accomplished by progressive development of the 2 branches at either end, as has been proposed already.

 

[simon.exd]

I am amazed at the comments about a Cowley Bridge advoiding line, a chord from Rewe, a Dawlish Advoiding Line, DAL.. very catchy.. tunnelling under Haldon Hill etc etc..

None of this will ever happen..
when the discussion about reopening the Okehampton line first started it was established that there was no money forthcoming..

I would suggest that people do a bit more research into the area before posting such rediculous comments.. looking at google earth does not make you an expert on the geography of the area..

I live very close to Cowley Bridge, in the village of Stoke Canon.. the whole area is prone to flooding but tge incident two years ago when the line was breached was caused by one factor alone.. the whole of the Exe Valley flooded because the river had been silting up .. If the Exe, like so many others, was dredged it wouldnt have happened..
Where does anyone suppose the hundreds of tonnes of ballast that got washed away is now?
Thats right, on the riverbed a few hundred yards downstream..
There is just no way a chord will be built to advoid St Davids..

There is more froth here than an explosion in a washing up liquid factory..

 

[yorksrob]

I am amazed at the comments about a Cowley Bridge advoiding line, a chord from Rewe, a Dawlish Advoiding Line, DAL.. very catchy.. tunnelling under Haldon Hill etc etc..

None of this will ever happen..
when the discussion about reopening the Okehampton line first started it was established that there was no money forthcoming..

I would suggest that people do a bit more research into the area before posting such rediculous comments.. looking at google earth does not make you an expert on the geography of the area..

I live very close to Cowley Bridge, in the village of Stoke Canon.. the whole area is prone to flooding but tge incident two years ago when the line was breached was caused by one factor alone.. the whole of the Exe Valley flooded because the river had been silting up .. If the Exe, like so many others, was dredged it wouldnt have happened..
Where does anyone suppose the hundreds of tonnes of ballast that got washed away is now?
Thats right, on the riverbed a few hundred yards downstream..
There is just no way a chord will be built to advoid St Davids..

There is more froth here than an explosion in a washing up liquid factory..

Avoiding Exeter will never happen, but given connectivity and resilience benefits, I'd say the Okehampton route would be worthwhile.

 

[simon.exd]

Avoiding Exeter will never happen, but given connectivity and resilience benefits, I'd say the Okehampton route would be worthwhile.

Absolutely.. the benefits for the region will be huge..

But im not convinced that the route is the best option as a diversionary route, but without doubt the most achievable

 

[yorksrob]

Absolutely.. the benefits for the region will be huge..

But im not convinced that the route is the best option as a diversionary route, but without doubt the most achievable

That's the problem though. It has the most potential benefits (and it would be fine for diversions, so long as the main line is being improved and maintained) yet the local politicians seem determined to do a hatchet job on it at every opportunity.

 

[Xavi]

I am amazed at the comments about a Cowley Bridge advoiding line, a chord from Rewe, a Dawlish Advoiding Line, DAL.. very catchy.. tunnelling under Haldon Hill etc etc..

None of this will ever happen..
when the discussion about reopening the Okehampton line first started it was established that there was no money forthcoming..

I would suggest that people do a bit more research into the area before posting such rediculous comments.. looking at google earth does not make you an expert on the geography of the area..

I live very close to Cowley Bridge, in the village of Stoke Canon.. the whole area is prone to flooding but tge incident two years ago when the line was breached was caused by one factor alone.. the whole of the Exe Valley flooded because the river had been silting up .. If the Exe, like so many others, was dredged it wouldnt have happened..
Where does anyone suppose the hundreds of tonnes of ballast that got washed away is now?
Thats right, on the riverbed a few hundred yards downstream..
There is just no way a chord will be built to advoid St Davids..

There is more froth here than an explosion in a washing up liquid factory..

If you are in part referencing my suggestion to provide a chord from Hele to Pinhoe, then perhaps you've misunderstood one of the objectives. The flooding from Stoke Canon to Cowley Bridge that you refer to is the very problem I am proposing provide a means of avoiding!

Do I think my proposal will happen? No (this is Devon). Is this a forum? Yes. Do I think my proposal would have low environmental impact alongside the M5? Yes. Would it bring benefits greater than could currently be offered (eg the access to Exeter Central on a through service) to reopened stations at the rapidly expanding Wellington and Cullompton, which are already proposed? Yes.

 

[The Ham]

Avoiding Exeter will never happen, but given connectivity and resilience benefits, I'd say the Okehampton route would be worthwhile.

Never say never, although a route which misses out Exeter doesn't seem to make much sense at the moment, it could be that in the future that by running services which miss Exeter that there's then space for more other services. In that there could be enough local services crossing Exeter that there wasn't much space for all the required longer distance services.

 

[jmc100]

I am amazed at the comments about a Cowley Bridge advoiding line, a chord from Rewe, a Dawlish Advoiding Line, DAL.. very catchy.. tunnelling under Haldon Hill etc etc..

None of this will ever happen..
when the discussion about reopening the Okehampton line first started it was established that there was no money forthcoming..

Silting up of river beds and tributaries coupled with a high water table is one of the main causes of flooding after exceptional rain. The EA have not been dredging the rivers and streams on the flood plains, consequently what we have recently experienced on the Somerset levels is a good example where the flooding produced an inland sea and covered the railway line in places. It's not only the EA, it's the local farmers as well. Many of them do not clear out the smaller ditches and they silt up with fallen trees, leaves and other vegetation. The recent effects of nature have caused the politicians and other agencies to wake up to the fact that money has to be injected into the rail system to make it much more resilient.

I amend my previous statement about the Rewe to Sweetham 'chord'. All trains from Paddington and Waterloo are able to travel to Exeter but the services from Paddington, the Midlands and the North could be routed over Dartmoor to Plymouth without having to travel through Exeter thereby relieving any congestion of traffic at Exeter. In the event of further closurs of the sea wall at Dawlish for whatever reason the Dartmoor route would provide the necessary alternative to keep the trains running.

As for the 'chord' route from Hele to Pinhoe, I have to say that this link could be a possibility but it would take quite a lot of additional funding to achieve as it would be a virgin project, whereas the Dartmoor idea could become a viable possibility in the short term.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

My preference would be having a service run by a different TOC, eg South West Trains. A few direct services to Waterloo. No reversing necessary. The fact of calling at Exeter Central would be popular too. (Trains terminating at Plymouth)
All trains will stop at Exeter St Davids! A major transport hub in Devon.

 

[34104]

West Devon Borough Council don't seem to be worried about losing their offices on the site of Tavistock North station should the line reopen;

http://www.westdevon.gov.uk/article/1809/Latest-News

 

[jmc100]

West Devon Borough Council don't seem to be worried about losing their offices on the site of Tavistock North station should the line reopen;

http://www.westdevon.gov.uk/article/1809/Latest-News

I have read the article and I think Okehampton council have the vision to see all the new possibilities that the Dartmoor route would open up for them as well as providing a viable alternative and route.

There is no doubt that linking Okehampton to Bere Alston is favoured by the local councils. Even Tavistock council were in favour of an extension to their town from Bere so why not reinstate the line over the missing section?

Opening the Dartmoor route would leave time to explore the possibilities of a new high-speed direct link between Exeter and Newton Abbot

 

[HowardGWR]

West Devon Borough Council don't seem to be worried about losing their offices on the site of Tavistock North station should the line reopen;

http://www.westdevon.gov.uk/article/1809/Latest-News

I am not surprised, they are not much to write home about- just take a ride up the driveway past the viaduct with Street View.

 

[jmc100]

I am not surprised, they are not much to write home about- just take a ride up the driveway past the viaduct with Street View.

Well, what do you expect? Meldon viaduct is in a bit of an isolated spot. The station itself is set high above the town but I believe there is a bus service connecting with it.

There are also plans for building a new station with shorter platforms called 'Okehampton East' that would provide better access for vehicles and foot passengers. I presume there would also be a bus connection with this station. This would leave the main Okehampton station intact to be used as an operational heritage site by the Dartmoor Railway where mainline trains could still make a stop if required.

 

[swt_passenger]

A few direct services to Waterloo. No reversing necessary.

Why do you think reversing is an issue, or relevant to the debate at all? Give us some facts. XC reverse at Reading and Birmingham all day every day, I don't hear anyone saying that's a reason to avoid the call there.

When SWT ran beyond Exeter they reversed at Exeter. When FGW divert via Honiton they reverse at Exeter. Portsmouth Cardiff trains reverse at Bristol.

 

[HowardGWR]

Well, what do you expect? Meldon viaduct is in a bit of an isolated spot. The station itself is set high above the town but I believe there is a bus service connecting with it.

There are also plans for building a new station with shorter platforms called 'Okehampton East' that would provide better access for vehicles and foot passengers. I presume there would also be a bus connection with this station. This would leave the main Okehampton station intact to be used as an operational heritage site by the Dartmoor Railway where mainline trains could still make a stop if required.

What has this to do with West Devon DC offices at Tavistock, to which you replied and quoted? I don't get the connection.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Why do you think reversing is an issue, or relevant to the debate at all? Give us some facts. XC reverse at Reading and Birmingham all day every day, I don't hear anyone saying that's a reason to avoid the call there.

When SWT ran beyond Exeter they reversed at Exeter. When FGW divert via Honiton they reverse at Exeter. Portsmouth Cardiff trains reverse at Bristol.

I agree, just a lot of posts making it sound like a disadvantage.
Trains reverse at many places without a problem!
Bere Alston, Coombe Junction, Bradford Exchange, to name a few more.

 

[jmc100]

What has this to do with West Devon DC offices at Tavistock, to which you replied and quoted? I don't get the connection.

I apologise, my post had nothing to do with what the poster was referring to. I thought it was referring to Meldon viaduct but it seems the comment was related to the stone-built viaduct at Tavistock and the road leading up to the WD council offices.

As a matter of interest, at the site of the council offices in Tavistock, from what I can make out using GE, there is only one part of the council complex that is sited on the original track bed so reconstructing a replacement for that structure should be no problem. It's possible that there may be some council land close by to site another building.

 

[HowardGWR]

I agree, just a lot of posts making it sound like a disadvantage.
Trains reverse at many places without a problem!
Bere Alston, Coombe Junction, Bradford Exchange, to name a few more.

Bristol Temple Meads has not a few. At Salisbury they are quite capable of splitting and connecting trains in a couple of minutes, as is evidenced when there is late running, so I was interested in the various ideas of doing similar with Torbay and Penzance portions. It used to happen all the time at Newton, so why not at Exeter or Taunton? The only snag is that one does have to accept extra manning of separate portions for parts of the journeys.