Suggestions for Dawlish avoiding route(s)

[47802]

Not as effective as a Dawlish avoiding line though. As you abandon more than ten percent of the entire population of said peninsula, plus people living at Newton Abbot and similar.
I can afford to spend more on a DAL than okehampton as it serves more and offers greater journey time and capacity advantages (ie it has some).
Okehampton costs a huge sum additional to the branch line option which gains most of the local benefits.

Bang on!

 

[The Ham]

I'm sorry but that statement is preposterous, either the Dawlish line is fit for purpose going forward or it isn't. if it is or can made to be, then there is no alternate required, if it isn't then a replacement is needed, not a ridiculous amount of money to be spent on an occasional diversion.

My car is fit for puropse going forward, but only for a finate amount of time.

Likewse Dawlish is fit for purpose for the time being, although having an alternitive route for the time being is useful. However there will come a time (be that 30, 50, 70 years or more from now) when it is no longer viable to keep it. By that time if an avoiding route has been built then there will likely be no further change to it and it will continue to be what it is (which may be a 100mph route). Also we could see the odd situation that the alternitive route for the Dawlish Avoiding Line (DAL) is via Dawlish, which then means that once the route through Dawlish is clsoed we are back to square one (although without out the risk of the sea cutting off the line, well atleast for quite some time).

However, if the route through Okehampton is opened up we could be (even in 30 years time, but more so the longer it takes) looking at a level of passenger demand which then means that we could see a better line built. We could then see justification for a highspeed line (highspeed being 140mph plus) which significantly shorterend the route to Plymouth (which woud slash even more significantly the journey times) as well as a good local service serving the towns the existing route serves.

The larger the network is in the SW the more likely that we will see more improvements going forward. The question is, although there are some linespeed improvements with the DAL, what is likely to better in the long term for the SW? I would suggest that once something is built for South Devon, then we may have to wait a very long time before anything major other than maybe the reopening of the line through Okehampton.

 

[najaB]

There is no time to dilly-dally on this one. Next winter could well be just as bad or even worse. Who knows? Are you prepared to chance it?

Actually, yes, we should chance it. The danger isn't inaction. The real danger is making multi-million pound investments as a knee-jerk reaction to an extreme weather event (ask all the councils whose snowploughs haven't been out once this year).

I think that everyone agrees that the coastal route via Dawlish will need to be upgraded or replaced at some point. However, the sky isn't falling and there's no need to rush into anything. I'm not suggesting that we need decades of feasibility studies, public consultations, etc. But I would say that the decision over what route, if any, to (re)open won't and shouldn't be made on the basis of a now near 900 post long Internet discussion thread.

 

[yorksrob]

I think that everyone agrees that the coastal route via Dawlish will need to be upgraded or replaced at some point. However, the sky isn't falling and there's no need to rush into anything. I'm not suggesting that we need decades of feasibility studies, public consultations, etc. But I would say that the decision over what route, if any, to (re)open won't and shouldn't be made on the basis of a now near 900 post long Internet discussion thread.

The sky might not have fallen in, however, the situation has highlighted a long term strategic weakness in the railway system in the South West. "More of the same" should not be an option.

 

[jmc100]

Actually, yes, we should chance it. The danger isn't inaction. The real danger is making multi-million pound investments as a knee-jerk reaction to an extreme weather event (ask all the councils whose snowploughs haven't been out once this year).

I think that everyone agrees that the coastal route via Dawlish will need to be upgraded or replaced at some point. However, the sky isn't falling and there's no need to rush into anything. I'm not suggesting that we need decades of feasibility studies, public consultations, etc. But I would say that the decision over what route, if any, to (re)open won't and shouldn't be made on the basis of a now near 900 post long Internet discussion thread.

That is just the point! You're right, the snow ploughs have not been in service this year but they are now available should they be required at any time in the future.

An alternative route is required in the short term as the weather in the South West cannot be relied on. The conditions can change very quickly. Then there is the safety issue to consider. Just think what could have happened if an HST had passed over the track when the ballast was washed out by a giant wave. Catastrophe!

I say an alternative route should be high on the agenda with provision for a high-speed tunnel or project such as MarkT suggested to follow later whilst keeping the sea wall route. At least, there would then be a much higher degree of resilience built into the SW rail infrastructure.

 

[Bald Rick]

Just think what could have happened if an HST had passed over the track when the ballast was washed out by a giant wave. Catastrophe!

There are clear procedures in adverse weather that are in place to prevent any such eventuality.

 

[The Ham]

Not as effective as a Dawlish avoiding line though. As you abandon more than ten percent of the entire population of said peninsula, plus people living at Newton Abbot and similar.
I can afford to spend more on a DAL than okehampton as it serves more and offers greater journey time and capacity advantages (ie it has some).
Okehampton costs a huge sum additional to the branch line option which gains most of the local benefits.

The problem with the DAL options as NR have them in their options that they are looking at is they are not going to be much shorter than the current route meaning that any time saving is likely to be fairly small (given that the current journey time is 18-21 minutes for the express services, so even halveing that would mean upto 10 minutes faster), most of the capcity constraints are not along any route which the DAL would take (e.g. at London or Exeter) and although it serves more people they are people who already have access to the rail network.

Although a lot of the advantages would be gained from just the two branch lines, there would be (ignoring any diversion advantages) still qquite a range of advantages. Although what these advantages are would depend on what services were.

 

[Xavi]

There are clear procedures in adverse weather that are in place to prevent any such eventuality.

Which regularly involves putting passengers on buses. Not acceptable for those with a lengthy journey to Plymouth and Cornwall ahead of them. Answer - alternate route needed and not just for the occasions when the wall gets washed away.

 

[Bald Rick]

Which regularly involves putting passengers on buses. Not acceptable for those with a lengthy journey to Plymouth and Cornwall ahead of them. Answer - alternate route needed and not just for the occasions when the wall gets washed away.

That wasn't my point - which was there are procedures for maintaining the integrity of passenger safety on the current line, as with any line along any coast. So safety is not a factor in the equation.

 

[Xavi]

That wasn't my point - which was there are procedures for maintaining the integrity of passenger safety on the current line, as with any line along any coast. So safety is not a factor in the equation.

I do realise that, but your post highlights what many others are choosing to ignore - that closures and inconvenience occur far more regularly than the national headlines about sea wall damage.

Moving on. My concern is that Hallgate is clearly an accountant at heart and, like so many, fail to understand that ultimately there is no economy (or government) if you only invest where there is a certainty of directly attributable monetary gain. Other economic inputs dependent on the existing infrastructure of the country will decline to the detriment of current freestanding private investment.

The big question for the south west is whether Cameron and The Treasury realise that sometimes politicians have to do what is right and not just what washes itself directly financially. If the correct decision is taken then it could be a historical moment with much wider positive consequences for the UK.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

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There are clear procedures in adverse weather that are in place to prevent any such eventuality.

Freak waves do exist.
I experienced one many years ago at Trebarwith Strand. (Perfect sunny afternoon, sunbathing etc.)
First a roar, then people screaming and scrambling up onto the rocks, as a huge wave rolled in. Low tide became high tide in seconds. Thanks to quick actions from locals on the beach there were no casualties.

The Okehampton route should never have closed.
(Settle-Carlisle was very lucky even with its 'condemned' viaduct, which was repaired lol)
If Dawlish is blocked, Torbay would then still have rail access to rail transport, via Plymouth. Moving rolling stock to where it is needed would not be a problem. Install long passing loops would make it suitable for a diversion route.
No need to re-site maintenance depots for the future.
Now up to HM government to decide on the cheapest / best option.
Doing nothing/ back burner is not an option.

 

[ironstone11]

Now up to HM government to decide on the cheapest / best option.
Doing nothing/ back burner is not an option.

A not very optimistic report on the BBC website:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-26407806

Unlikely that anything will be done?

 

[yorksrob]

A not very optimistic report on the BBC website:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-26407806

Unlikely that anything will be done?

Well, he did develop the cost-benefit analysis, so going by that alone, no you probably wouldn't get anything done.

The question is, will the Government look at the strategic importance of an alternative route to the South West in the same way that they have looked at strategic reasons for HS2 beyond just the basic payback compared to investment.

What price having a reliable transport system to the South West ? The BCR methodology includes no consideration of this beyond the benefits to towns served along any new route. The people of the South West probably feel that this is a significant oversight.

 

[swt_passenger]

Doing nothing/ back burner is not an option.

I think you'll find it is...

 

[najaB]

Doing nothing/ back burner is not an option.

I think you'll find it is...

How about failure? Is that an option?

 

[Bald Rick]

I do realise that, but your post highlights what many others are choosing to ignore - that closures and inconvenience occur far more regularly than the national headlines about sea wall damage.

Moving on. My concern is that Hallgate is clearly an accountant at heart

I could argue for a long time about the closure and inconvenience. That I have chosen not to (now) is purely because I'm bored of it. But I couldn't let a statement suggesting the current line was in some way unsafe go unanswered.

Now Mr Hallgate may be many good things, but an accountant at heart he is not; although if he was why would that be a concern ?
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--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Freak waves do exist.

Indeed they do, and not just at Dawlish, hence the procedures. But the risk is very small.

It's similar in concept to the risk of a plane landing on the railway on the approach to Gatwick, but no one is suggesting building a diversionary route for the Brighton Main Line. Oh, hang on...

 

[Goatboy]

Which regularly involves putting passengers on buses.

No it doesn't. Over the last few years passengers have been on buses because of Cowly Bridge Junction far more than Dawlish.

 

[Xavi]

No it doesn't. Over the last few years passengers have been on buses because of Cowly Bridge Junction far more than Dawlish.

Not if you count the number of individual occurrences. Cowley Bridge has been several lengthy events. Anyway I never said a solution for Cowley Bridge wasn't also required.

 

[47802]

A not very optimistic report on the BBC website:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-26407806

Unlikely that anything will be done?

Indeed I suspect very little will happen, but if money is forthcoming this is why it needs to be a replacement for the mainline and not a diversion.

And if Okehampton was to be chosen then the only way it could be justified in my view if was chosen as the mainline built to mainline standards with an option to access it from the GW mainline without reversal at Exeter, obviously such an option would seriously disadvantage Torbay, which I why I think route B is the best option.

 

[LateThanNever]

Indeed I suspect very little will happen, but if money is forthcoming this is why it needs to be a replacement for the mainline and not a diversion.

And if Okehampton was to be chosen then the only way it could be justified in my view if was chosen as the mainline built to mainline standards with an option to access it from the GW mainline without reversal at Exeter, obviously such an option would seriously disadvantage Torbay, which I why I think route B is the best option.

Agree it should be built to mainline standards and it already has a less demanding profile than the Southern route via Dawlish with its steep banks and tight curves. But quite why reversing at Exeter should be such a major problem I've never understood. Although if the job were done really properly London trains would fast to London Waterloo. XC would still be reversing though.
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Indeed I suspect very little will happen, but if money is forthcoming this is why it needs to be a replacement for the mainline and not a diversion.

And if Okehampton was to be chosen then the only way it could be justified in my view if was chosen as the mainline built to mainline standards with an option to access it from the GW mainline without reversal at Exeter, obviously such an option would seriously disadvantage Torbay, which I why I think route B is the best option.

The bbc report emphasises again that the South West is & has been seriously underfunded.

 

[47802]

Agree it should be built to mainline standards and it already has a less demanding profile than the Southern route via Dawlish with its steep banks and tight curves. But quite why reversing at Exeter should be such a major problem I've never understood. Although if the job were done really properly London trains would fast to London Waterloo. XC would still be reversing though.
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The bbc report emphasis again that the South West is & has been seriously underfunded.

I think if was properly chosen as the main route you could get congestion in Exeter station at busy times, it will take at least 5mins to reverse.

I'm sure that the busier Penzance and Holiday trains to such as Newquay, Charters, Freight etc, could justify missing out Exeter, and would help speed these services up offsetting reversal at Plymouth, any gaps in the timetable at Exeter could be plugged by an Exeter semi fast or Torbay Express.

Of course I still think Okehampton isn't the best Option, and as a Diversion option i'm not sure represents good value for money, as I have said time and time again if we need a replacement for the mainline then that's what it should be not a half arsed diversion solution, because as the article says getting money for this is going to be difficult anyway so it has to be the right long term solution.

 

[LateThanNever]

I think if was properly chosen as the main route you could get congestion in Exeter station at busy times, it will take at least 5mins to reverse.

I'm sure that the busier Penzance and Holiday trains to such as Newquay, Charters, Freight etc, could justify missing out Exeter, and would help speed these services up offsetting reversal at Plymouth, any gaps in the timetable at Exeter could be plugged by an Exeter semi fast or Torbay Express.

Of course I still think Okehampton isn't the best Option, and as a Diversion option i'm not sure represents good value for money, as I have said time and time again if we need a replacement for the mainline then that's what it should be not a half arsed diversion solution, because as the article says getting money for this is going to be difficult anyway so it has to be the right long term solution.

I'm pretty sure there are two platforms at Exeter St David's that are rarely used - certainly the one that overlooks the Pacer depot (don't know the number) is pretty bereft! There is very little freight left (unsurprising because of the annual unscheduled severances of the last few years). But I'm sure Exeter could be omitted perhaps as part of the Cowley Bridge scheme, which seems to have quite a bit of 'spare' cash. Don't disagree that a replacement for the main line is required but I'd just be surprised if a completely new solution was to be favoured - as you are replacing only what you have lost, which will have already been done by next month (till the next crisis at least) rather than engendering new journey opportunities.

What we'd really like is a direct route Exeter to Plymouth but although everyone seems to reckon that tunnelling through granite is like cutting cake now, I notice that the Swiss still appear to use a lot of high explosive in the Alps, so it would be surprising if the 'straight' traversing of Dartmoor were achievable for a realistic cost.

 

[jmc100]

The real long-term solution is a high-speed tunnel connecting Exeter directly to Newton Abbot. There would be no need to obtain permissions except for rights over the land at the tunnel entrances. The only other consideration for this proposal would be the construction of some ventilation shafts due to the use of diesel traffic. If the route was electrified there would be no requirement for any shafts.

In the short term, the best solution is to bridge gap between Meldon and Bere Alston even if it is only a single line with passing loops. There are many single line operations in Europe that are operated to main line standards so doing the same here should not be a problem.

After bridging the gap, maybe a Devon and Dartmoor circle line could be implemented. Just think of the advantages that this could bring as well as being a safe and resilient alternative route.

 

[47802]

The real long-term solution is a high-speed tunnel connecting Exeter directly to Newton Abbot. There would be no need to obtain permissions except for rights over the land at the tunnel entrances. The only other consideration for this proposal would be the construction of some ventilation shafts due to the use of diesel traffic. If the route was electrified there would be no requirement for any shafts.

In the short term, the best solution is to bridge gap between Meldon and Bere Alston even if it is only a single line with passing loops. There are many single line operations in Europe that are operated to main line standards so doing the same here should not be a problem.

After bridging the gap, maybe a Devon and Dartmoor circle line could be implemented. Just think of the advantages that this could bring as well as being a safe and resilient alternative route.

But we come back to same argument getting any money will be difficult therefore the idea of money for multiple options is just shear fantasy, that's why it has to be the right solution for the long term.

 

[yorksrob]

The real long-term solution is a high-speed tunnel connecting Exeter directly to Newton Abbot. There would be no need to obtain permissions except for rights over the land at the tunnel entrances. The only other consideration for this proposal would be the construction of some ventilation shafts due to the use of diesel traffic. If the route was electrified there would be no requirement for any shafts.

In the short term, the best solution is to bridge gap between Meldon and Bere Alston even if it is only a single line with passing loops. There are many single line operations in Europe that are operated to main line standards so doing the same here should not be a problem.

After bridging the gap, maybe a Devon and Dartmoor circle line could be implemented. Just think of the advantages that this could bring as well as being a safe and resilient alternative route.

Absolutely. The right option for now would be to improve the sea defences for the main line, as is being done by NR, and bridge the gap between Meldon and Bere Alston, to provide a viable back up route, whilst bringing in as many new local connectivity benefits as possible. This is the only way a realistic business case will be made to stack up.

 

[starrymarkb]

What we'd really like is a direct route Exeter to Plymouth but although everyone seems to reckon that tunnelling through granite is like cutting cake now, I notice that the Swiss still appear to use a lot of high explosive in the Alps, so it would be surprising if the 'straight' traversing of Dartmoor were achievable for a realistic cost.

The Swiss do seem to do some quite large mega projects to improve connections to small towns. For example the new Grafenort – Engelberg Tunnel, The Furka Base Tunnel, Kriens-Luzern Tunnel etc.

I'd have thought following the A380 from Exminster to Just outside Newton Abbot would be best for a tunneled route. That way Newton Abbot and Torquay are still served and if the tunnel/approaches are straight enough you should be able to get 200/230km/h for maybe 10 miles or so.

 

[The Ham]

But we come back to same argument getting any money will be difficult therefore the idea of money for multiple options is just shear fantasy, that's why it has to be the right solution for the long term.

Depends on how you view long term, are we thinking the next 20 to 40 years, or are we thinking the next 50 to 80 years?

Right, so lets say the DAL gets built (say with linespeeds of 90-100mph) in a hurry to just about cope with what is needed and then in 50 years time there is a proposal for a new HS line running to Exeter is proposed, then chances are the upgrades will stop at Exeter and the trains will then trundle onto Plymouth and Cornwall.

Conversely if the mainline is still routed through Dawlish, then there comes a big advantage in continuing the major upgrades to Plymouth (especially if there are closures of the line most winters by then) with linespeeds of over 140mph being a possibility and depending on how fragile the line through Dawlish is it could justify the new upgrades to occur sooner than they otherwise would have been. However in the meantime Plymouth has never been cut off from the network.

The big risk with the DAL is that will be it in terms of upgrades (other than electrification, maybe a bit of redoubling and a slow increase in the number of services) for services west of Exeter for a long time. Conversely the Okehampton reopening means that further upgrades will be required in the next 30-70 years, however by then there could be a lot more passengers (35 years of 2% growth doubles the numbers of passengers).

With double the passengers linespeed improvements become a lot higher value in terms of benefits. Therefore a HS tunnel between Exeter and Newton Abbot built in the next 50 to 60 years with a journey time of about 6 minutes, compared with the best current time of 18 minutes then becomes more likely. That would clearly be better than the DAL being built in the next 10 years with a journey time of about 15 minutes.

 

[jmc100]

The Swiss do seem to do some quite large mega projects to improve connections to small towns. For example the new Grafenort – Engelberg Tunnel, The Furka Base Tunnel, Kriens-Luzern Tunnel etc.

I'd have thought following the A380 from Exminster to Just outside Newton Abbot would be best for a tunneled route. That way Newton Abbot and Torquay are still served and if the tunnel/approaches are straight enough you should be able to get 200/230km/h for maybe 10 miles or so.

Not only the Swiss, it would appear Trenitalia have also been investing heavily in some spectacular high-speed rail tunnel projects over the last ten years leaving us well behind. It's about time this country started to get its rail infrastructure better organised than relying on old Victorian routing principles. I know members will say money is the problem, but if nearly £50billion can be found for a rail project that will only serve a few towns, finding some cash for a small project such as the DAL should really be no problem. There is more priority in constructing an alternative to the Dawlish route than a huge inflationary rail project that is not going to be directly connected to HS1 and the Channel tunnel.

 

[HSTEd]

So you are suggesting we should deliberately cripple the railway today to force better upgrades in a few decades time?

 

[Taunton]

In the short term, the best solution is to bridge gap between Meldon and Bere Alston even if it is only a single line with passing loops. There are many single line operations in Europe that are operated to main line standards so doing the same here should not be a problem.

Given that the route would not be required 99.9% of the time, such minimal expenditure would be relevant.

However, don't get carried away with single line being operated to double track capacity (as in Switzerland), or reversals done in 2 minutes (as in Switzerland). The UK railway has never been able to do either of these feats, and they are certainly not going to start now. What with probable 10 mph limits over Meldon Viaduct, likewise over the long rickety bridge at Bere Ferrers, climbing up to what was the highest point on the railway in southern England (at Meldon), and negotiating the Cowley Bridge floods TWICE on each trip, I reckon an extra hour on each journey. Of course, as you miss out half your potential traffic from Newton Abbot/Torbay, who presumably now have to drive to Exeter, there will be far less services required anyway.