Suggestions for Dawlish avoiding route(s)

[TheKnightWho]

It's certainly good news if NR are coming out in favour of Okehampton, as this, together with a maintained Dawlish route would be my preferred solution. I would be surprised if they'd be in a position to confirm before official consideration of all options.

One thing to consider is that the coalition is unlikely to be fighting the next general election as a coalition. I understand that in the South west Lib Dem and Conservative are very much the main rivals to eachother.

Exactly. No doubt if NR make reinstating the old line a priority they'll both claim credit, which is good for us at the moment as it means both parties in power have a vested interest in it.

 

[tbtc]

One thing to consider is that the coalition is unlikely to be fighting the next general election as a coalition. I understand that in the South west Lib Dem and Conservative are very much the main rivals to eachother.

That's precisely why there's no political capital to be gained here - no extra votes to be won by saying "we were part of the coalition that built a new railway line" when your main opponent can say the same thing about their party.

If they wanted to win votes by investing on railway lines then they'd do so in key marginals - http://labourlist.org/2013/01/labours-106-battleground-target-seats-for-2015/ suggests that the top hundredish battlegrounds will be these:

• 1 North Warwickshire
• 2 Thurrock
• 3 Hendon
• 4 Cardiff North
• 5 Sherwood
• 6 Norwich South
• 7 Stockton South
• 8 Broxtowe
• 9 Lancaster & Fleetwood
• 10 Bradford East
• 11 Amber Valley
• 12 Waveney
• 13 Wolverhampton SW
• 14 Marcambe & Lunesdale
• 15 Carlisle
• 16 Stroud
• 17 Weaver Vale
• 18 Lincoln
• 19 Brighton Pavillion
• 20 Plymouth Sutton & Devonport
• 21 Dewsbury
• 22 Warrington South
• 23 Brent Central
• 24 Bedford
• 25 Brighton Kemptown
• 26 Pudsey
• 27 Brentford & Isleworth
• 28 Hove
• 29 Enfield North
• 30 Hastings & Rye
• 31 Manchester Withington
• 32 Burnley
• 33 Ipswich
• 34 Dundee East
• 35 East Dunbartonshire
• 36 Halesowen & Rowley Regis
• 37 Nuneaton
• 38 Gloucester
• 39 Northampton North
• 40 Bury North
• 41 Kingswood
• 42 Erewash
• 43 Blackpool North & Cleveleys
• 44 City of Chester
• 45 Arfon
• 46 Croydon Central
• 47 Worcester
• 48 Keighley
• 49 Wirral West
• 50 Cannock Chase
• 51 Loughborough
• 52 Harrow East
• 53 Warwick & Leamington
• 54 Birmingham Yardley
• 55 South Swindon
• 56 Ealing Central & Acton
• 57 Pendle
• 58 Stevenage
• 59 Elmet & Rothwell
• 60 Edinburgh West
• 61 Watford
• 62 Carmarthen West & South Pembrokeshire
• 63 Vale of Glamorgan
• 64 Argyll & Bute
• 65 Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale & Tweeddale
• 66 Carmarthen East & Dinefwr
• 67 Norwich North
• 68 High Peak
• 69 Milton Keynes South
• 70 Rossendale & Darwen
• 71 Cleethorpes
• 72 North East Somerset
• 73 Great Yarmouth
• 74 Dudley South
• 75 Dover
• 76 Colne Valley
• 77 South Ribble
• 78 Peterborough
• 79 Stafford
• 80 Stourbridge
• 81 Harlow
• 82 Aberconwy
• 83 Ilford North
• 84 Preseli Pembrokeshire
• 85 Brigg & Goole
• 86 Crewe & Nantwich
• 87 Bristol NW
• 88 Battersea
• 89 Finchley & Golders Green
• 90 Calder Valley
• 91 Redcar
• 92 Crawley
• 93 Hornsey & Wood Green
• 94 Reading West
• 95 Rugby
• 96 Burton
• 97 Cardiff Central
• 98 South Basildon & East Thurrock
• 99 Tamworth
• 100 Redditch
• 101 Chatham & Aylesford
• 102 North Swindon
• 103 Cambridge
• 104 Bermondsey & Old Southwark
• 105 Bristol West
• 106 Leeds NW

...i.e. a lot of Network South East area seats (where Tories are defengin) and a few north of England seats where Labour got lazy and the LibDems previously too).

Not much point buying votes in the south west.

 

[D1009]

Do NR own the sea wall? If so I can't imagine anyone wanting to buy it, so presumably they have to maintain it irrespective of what happens to the railway.

Also I don't understand why people are trying to make a party political issue out of this at a time when there is so little difference between the 3 major parties regarding transport policy.

 

[Tobbes]

That's precisely why there's no political capital to be gained here - no extra votes to be won by saying "we were part of the coalition that built a new railway line" when your main opponent can say the same thing about their party.

If they wanted to win votes by investing on railway lines then they'd do so in key marginals - ...i.e. a lot of Network South East area seats (where Tories are defengin) and a few north of England seats where Labour got lazy and the LibDems previously too).

Not much point buying votes in the south west.

Actually, there is a political point. Assuming that Scotland votes "no" in September, the Tories need a net gain of 22 seats for an absolute majority in 2015.

Of their targets, at least six LibDem held seats (Tauton Deane, St. Ives, St. Austell and Newquay, North Devon, North Cornwall, Torbay) are directly affected by this - so if the LibDems campaign on this, then the Tories will have to as well. Moreover, the SW is also (surprisingly) fertile UKIP territory, so if I were a Tory strategist, I'd have a weather eye on shoring up my base vote as well as at least matching the LibDems in local politics.

 

[swissrailpassion]

I think you're going to be disappointed... more likely that in a few months time we'll have had a higher thicker wall built at Dawlish capable of withstanding more waves and this thread will seem as dated as the suggestions on the "Mount Hatfield" thread about upgrading routes from South Yorkshire to Grimsby/ Cleethorpes or building new lines.

And since there are only two non-Coalition seats west of Bristol (Labour have a seat in urban Exeter and a seat in urban Plymouth, but everything else is yellow or blue), there's no real advantage to the Government of spending lots of money to "buy" seats.

Also, since I don't think anyone has mentioned this - interesting to compare the "we must build a new railway through Dartmoor" argument with the "we cannot have HS2 in cuttings and tunnels through the Chilterns" argument - I'd suggest that Devon is a more "outstanding" area of "naturay beauty" but presumably home to fewer NIMBYs?

Mount Hatfield is quite different, there were alternative routes to Hull and Cleethorpes/Immingham.
The National Park will not be opposed, as hinted this morning, there is already a scheme to rebuild to Tavistock, therefore a through route seems a sensible idea? We need to expand the network, the years of constant shrinkage ended some years ago. Political consensus, engineering expertise, and environmental considerations could come together and see the LSWR route rebuilt.

 

[LateThanNever]

There's been a good few suggestions on alternative routes, and good natured & sensible suggestions on what the priorities might be. (thumbs-up icon)

Unfortunately there's an elephant in the corner that nobody has mentioned yet. Being the innocent newbie, I'll risk being the first to mention them (please don't shoot the messenger).

Any major infrastructure projects that drift anywhere near "being necessary because of climate change" are immediately hostage to whichever set of "experts" the Government has on tap. Some of us might have noticed the "experts' consensus" being deployed on Countryfile last night (BBC1 TV Sunday 9th Feb). Video of the state of Dawlish Sea Wall were shown in the same breath as videos of Spurn Point near Hull, and East Anglia where "the sea has come three miles inland".

It seemed very noticable (to me) that none of the experts setting environmental policy are engineers who might have the vision to solve problems in a productive or positive way. The experts' policy of choice might best be summed-up as "Environmental Pacifism". That is, fighting the Environment is a war humans can't fight or win, the best thing we can do is manage an orderly retreat. In East Anglia, that meant letting the sea breach existing dunes and sea defences. Same at Spurn Point.

What would that mean in the South West? Emergency repairs in the short term, but then a long-term policy of not investing in coastal defence maintenance, or downgrading the infrastructure. For Dawlish, would that mean reducing the two lines to one?

Short-term: Reopen Bere Alston-Tavistock (single track only)

Medium term: Reopen Tavistock-Okehampton(single track only)

Long term: A strategic plan for a "Dawlish By-pass" could be delayed for years by public enquiries, planning appeals, budget reviews, etc etc.

Meanwhile we would have to be very British and Muddle Through.

New mug and T-shirt required?
"Keep Calm And Carry On Using The Buses"

Like it - can I have one?!

Broadly agree but a managed retreat could well be best for Spurn Point where nobody lives or even rural East Anglia which has relatively few houses affected and no substantial settlement. But Dawlish and Teignmouth are both quite densely populated so I don't think there would be much 'managed' retreat which did not probably involve surrendering not just houses but streets to the sea - never mind the railway line!

 

[Tobbes]

Adrian Sanders MP (LibDem, Torbay) has opined on LibDem Voice. Sorry Adrian, agree with all you say right up to the end: we do need to be thinking about an alternative, and the LSWR route is sensibly clear favourite - even if it doesn't immediately help Torbay!

 

[K Macdonald]

I understand that in the South west Lib Dem and Conservative are very much the main rivals to eachother.

Hopefully they will start a bidding war on promises of new & reinstalled lines?

 

[Llanigraham]

If the Dawlish route went, someone other than NR would have to pay for the sea defences. From an NR point of view, the cost of sea defences that don't have a railway line on top of them is zero.

Perhaps not!
It is possible that the enabling Act that allowed the original building of the line also stated who was to be responsible for the "wave wall", and that is most likely to be the Railway Company. Therefore without the Act being altered, by another Act, then NR would still be liable for the up-keep of the "wave wall" railway present or not!

Do NR own the sea wall? If so I can't imagine anyone wanting to buy it, so presumably they have to maintain it irrespective of what happens to the railway.

See above.

 

[HSTEd]

Managed Retreat is just one of those things that the current generation at the Environment Agency have been brought up to accept.

Nevermind that a Severn Barrage and a similar Barrage on the Wash could drastically reduce the amount of land lost in Somerset and East Anglia respectively, and could even allow for significant additional reclamation.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Reopening Okehampron - Tavistock as a divisionary route seems the most sensible option for when the railway is closed/breached at Dawlish in the short to medium term.

A Dwalish bypass route between Exeter and Newton Abbot seems to be a longer term strategy that will be need as climate change and rising sea levels mean that maintaining the railway at Dawlish is no longer cost effective (perhaps the Earth beneath the railway could be dug out and replaced with concrete to protect the town?) If a new Dawish bypass line needs to be buil then it should IMO be built to a high speed standard (125-140mph line speed) and HS2 loading gauge so that it could form part of a potential HS route to the south west? Obviously this wouldn't be for another 20-30 years.

 

[po8crg]

Reopening Okehampron - Tavistock as a divisionary route seems the most sensible option for when the railway is closed/breached at Dawlish in the short to medium term.

A Dwalish bypass route between Exeter and Newton Abbot seems to be a longer term strategy that will be need as climate change and rising sea levels mean that maintaining the railway at Dawlish is no longer cost effective (perhaps the Earth beneath the railway could be dug out and replaced with concrete to protect the town?) If a new Dawish bypass line needs to be buil then it should IMO be built to a high speed standard (125-140mph line speed) and HS2 loading gauge so that it could form part of a potential HS route to the south west? Obviously this wouldn't be for another 20-30 years.

That seems to be the most sensible strategy to me. Reopen Okehampton-Tavistock. Measure how much it gets used. Build an Exeter-Newton Abbot bypass when the answer is "too much".

 

[yorksrob]

Exactly. No doubt if NR make reinstating the old line a priority they'll both claim credit, which is good for us at the moment as it means both parties in power have a vested interest in it.

Of their targets, at least six LibDem held seats (Tauton Deane, St. Ives, St. Austell and Newquay, North Devon, North Cornwall, Torbay) are directly affected by this - so if the LibDems campaign on this, then the Tories will have to as well. Moreover, the SW is also (surprisingly) fertile UKIP territory, so if I were a Tory strategist, I'd have a weather eye on shoring up my base vote as well as at least matching the LibDems in local politics.

Hopefully they will start a bidding war on promises of new & reinstalled lines?

Quite.

If I were a local Tory or Lib Dem incumbent with the imminent prospect of normal hostilities resuming, I'd be looking to bask in the glory and gain the credit of introducing such a game changing improvement as much as possible. They need to hold their nerve and not let the issue slip with those at the centre.

 

[Kettledrum]

To my way of thinking there are three conclusions from this thread:


I can't help concluding that the benefit of an Okehampton/Tavistock route for emergency diversions will be very small. If this sort of disruption continues to be rare then the occasional diversion won't justify the costs of maintaining crew knowledge etc on the diversionary route. If disruption becomes more frequent then (2) above is necessary to ensure a reliable rail link which is of some use to the populations of intermediate stations in South Devon as well as Plymouth and Cornwall - in which case diversions via Okehampton are no longer necessary. Any case for reopening needs to stand primarily on the benefits to the communities on the route. There might also be a small benefit for planned diversions, for example for blockades between Newton Abbot and Plymouth.

Okehampton to Tavistock could perhaps be easier to electrify than the Dawlish sea wall route. It could be done when it was being built, without additional closures or possessions. It could perhaps also be rebuilt to be operated at higher speeds, so it might have additional benefits as well as serving the communities on the line as well as providing significant resilience for the 24hour 7 day railway that is being increasingly demanded.

 

[reb0118]

Pedant alert!

Couldn't be more incorrect as far as Exeter goes - no city in the UK has two entirely independent routes of greater length with regular services to London.

Edinburgh perchance? Via ECM & WCM (esp. since Virgin have extended the EDB -BHM services to EUS)

Pedant alert! All clear!

Have to agree with the rest of your post though!

 

[Tobbes]

Okehampton to Tavistock could perhaps be easier to electrify than the Dawlish sea wall route.

Good point. Has anyone got any idea how you'd run 25kV AC OHLE down the seawall and keep it operational?

Tobbes

 

[YorkshireBear]

Good point. Has anyone got any idea how you'd run 25kV AC OHLE down the seawall and keep it operational?

Tobbes

The same way we have been doing it on the line to Ayr for decades.

 

[tbtc]

The same way we have been doing it on the line to Ayr for decades.

Shh - you'll spoil the idea that Dawlish is unique if you show people pictures like these: http://flickrhivemind.net/Tags/saltcoats,storm/Interesting

And if we (apparently) need a 140mph electrified diversion at Dawlish then presumably the same is true of the ECML near Berwick or near Stonehaven which may both be at risk of coastal erosion.

 

[HowardGWR]

The following is reported in the Plymouth Herald, which is promoting the Okehampton route reinstatement.

Cllr Philip Sanders, leader of West Devon Borough Council, said: “We would be delighted to see the line re-established.”

He added: “If there’s a will from central Government these things can move fairly quickly.”

Read more: http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/Cou...tory-20598678-detail/story.html#ixzz2sxZiaYrH

That surprises me. His Council's offices, admittedly a rather cheap and nasty extension to them, will have to be bulldozed, and he will have to ensure the few houses built next to the viaduct go the same way. I imagine the residents will be made an offer they will not wish to refuse. Seeing as it was that Council that was responsible for the intrusions onto the line in the first place, it seems very encouraging that he now is so fulsome in his support.

 

[Tobbes]

Shh - you'll spoil the idea that Dawlish is unique if you show people pictures like these: http://flickrhivemind.net/Tags/saltcoats,storm/Interesting

And if we (apparently) need a 140mph electrified diversion at Dawlish then presumably the same is true of the ECML near Berwick or near Stonehaven which may both be at risk of coastal erosion.

Many thanks - I was genuinely asking. Good news, then, that it obviously works. Is there anything special about the installation on the Ayrshire coast?

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Shh - you'll spoil the idea that Dawlish is unique if you show people pictures like these: http://flickrhivemind.net/Tags/saltcoats,storm/Interesting

And if we (apparently) need a 140mph electrified diversion at Dawlish then presumably the same is true of the ECML near Berwick or near Stonehaven which may both be at risk of coastal erosion.

What about tunnel clearances under the cliffs though? Obviously track lowering is not an option

 

[YorkshireBear]

What about tunnel clearances under the cliffs though? Obviously track lowering is not an option

As long as we are not clearing for freight it should not be a major problem. We may not be able to track lower but we can install slab track quite easily.

 

[yorksrob]

They can send any freight through Okehampton.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

As long as we are not clearing for freight it should not be a major problem. We may not be able to track lower but we can install slab track quite easily.

Fair enough thanks for the answer

 

[Rich McLean]

They can send any freight through Okehampton.

A Heavy freight over Meldon Viaduct

 

[yorksrob]

A Heavy freight over Meldon Viaduct

Assuming they strengthen/fix it before hand (we don't want the Cassandra Crossing !).

 

[455driver]

A Heavy freight in Cornwall

Fixed that for you!

 

[Rapidash]

If Adrian Sanders and Sarah Wooleston don't kick up a proper stink about the proposed alternative doing jack all for their constituents down here in the Bay, I will be most annoyed.

There is a reason why the Newton Road is gridlocked from 7 in the morning and 4 in the afternoon, and why the carriages are full and standing from EXC to NTA. It's because a vast number of people working and learning in Exeter come from Torbay! Shocking, I know

Good grief, what needs to be done to make them realize its not all about trying to get to damned London or Penzance all the time? Maybe we could have a Cream Tea Hub somewhere for their convenience? A Cider Chord perhaps? Possibly someone with a funny accent can read out the announcements? :neutral:

 

[yorksrob]

If Adrian Sanders and Sarah Wooleston don't kick up a proper stink about the proposed alternative doing jack all for their constituents down here in the Bay, I will be most annoyed.

I wouldn't worry too much. I can't see them closing the existing main line.

 

[Rapidash]

I wouldn't worry too much. I can't see them closing the existing main line.

I'll hold you to that next time the sea blows it up