Suggested post-HS2 ex Network SouthEast services London Euston - Northampton (Table 66)

[adrock1976]

Being as the number of the traditional InterCity trains that presently run to and from Euston will be reduced when HS2 is up and running, my suggested service provision could be as follows:

Euston - Tring calling all stations every 30 minutes (as present, maybe also call Queens Park too) running on the Slow Lines.

Euston - Birmingham New Street via Northampton Regional Express, calling Watford Junction, Bletchley (for Bletchley Park and East West Rail), Milton Keynes Central, Wolverton, Northampton, Long Buckby, Hillmorton Crick Road/Rugby Parkway, Rugby, Coventry, Tile Hill (for Godiva Tramlink), Birmingham International, and New Street. This could run on the Fast Lines to Hanslope Junction rather than Ledburn if possible to timetable this crossing move in both directions. It is noted that West Midlands Region could provide 2tph local all stations Northampton - Birmingham - Wolverhampton so as to maintain the present 4tph between Coventry and Rugby. Also, by trying to timetable the crossing move at Hanslope instead of Ledburn, this may possibly allow the Bedford Midland - Bletchley local stations to continue to Milton Keynes, with the opposite half hour path left vacant.

Euston - Northampton calling all stations (including Cheddington) and running on the Slow Lines every 30 minutes. Together with the Euston - Tring, this would provide a combined frequency of every 15 minutes between Euston and Tring.

Euston - Milton Keynes Central every 30 minutes calling Watford Junction, Hemel Hempstead, Berkhamsted, Leighton Buzzard, Bletchley, and MK Central. Could run on Fast Lines throughout, or switch to Slow Lines at Ledburn if need be.

Although more for Table 176, the present East Croydon - Milton Keynes to be doubled in frequency from every 60 minutes to every 30 minutes. Alternatively, this could be curtailed to run East Croydon (or Clapham Junction) - Watford Junction using Platform 10 (unsure if the signalling allows it if the St Albans Abbey shuttle is running as that uses Platform 11) and quadrupled in frequency to every 15 minutes (bearing in mind that I would imagine that the Slow Lines timetable would have to be built around these, so as to avoid redoing the whole of the south of the Thames). Also possible transfer from Govia Thameslink to London Overground?

Venturing into Table 67 (ex Trent Valley Railway), London Euston - Crewe Regional Express every 30 minutes calling Milton Keynes Central, Rugby, Nuneaton, Atherstone, Polesworth, Tamworth, Lichfield TV, Rugeley TV (connecting to/from Walsall trains), Stafford, and Crewe.

As I mentioned a few weeks ago for the InterCity trains in Table 65, all would call at Milton Keynes Central.

Any other thoughts on how a possible post HS2 service provision could be for this section?

 

[HST43257]

all 2tph

• London to Tring calling at Wembley Central, Harrow & Wealdstone, Bushey, Watford Junction, Kings Langley, Apsley, Hemel Hempstead, Berkhamsted and Tring. (SL all the way)
• Clapham Junction (or beyond) to Bletchley calling at West London Line stations, then Wembley Central, Harrow & Wealdstone, Watford Junction, Hemel Hempstead, Berkhamsted, Tring, Cheddington, Leighton Buzzard and Bletchley. (SL all the way)
• London to Northampton calling at Watford Junction, Hemel Hempstead, Berkhamsted, Tring, Leighton Buzzard, Bletchley, Milton Keynes Central, Wolverton and Northampton. (SL all the way)
• London to Birmingham calling at Leighton Buzzard, Bletchley, Milton Keynes Central, Wolverton, Northampton, Long Buckby, Rugby, Coventry, Canley, Tile Hill, Berkswell, Hampton-in-Arden, Birmingham International, Marston Green and Birmingham New Street. (FL-SL at Ledburn)
• London to Rugby calling at Milton Keynes Central, Northampton, Long Buckby and Rugby. (FL-SL at Milton Keynes)
• London to Crewe calling at Milton Keynes Central, Rugby, Nuneaton, Atherstone, Tamworth, Lichfield Trent Valley, Rugeley Trent Valley, Stafford, Stone (1tph), Stoke-on-Trent (1tph), Kidsgrove (1tph), Alsager (1tph) and Crewe.

 

[adrock1976]

all 2tph

• London to Tring calling at Wembley Central, Harrow & Wealdstone, Bushey, Watford Junction, Kings Langley, Apsley, Hemel Hempstead, Berkhamsted and Tring. (SL all the way)
• Clapham Junction (or beyond) to Bletchley calling at West London Line stations, then Wembley Central, Harrow & Wealdstone, Watford Junction, Hemel Hempstead, Berkhamsted, Tring, Cheddington, Leighton Buzzard and Bletchley. (SL all the way)
• London to Northampton calling at Watford Junction, Hemel Hempstead, Berkhamsted, Tring, Leighton Buzzard, Bletchley, Milton Keynes Central, Wolverton and Northampton. (SL all the way)
• London to Birmingham calling at Leighton Buzzard, Bletchley, Milton Keynes Central, Wolverton, Northampton, Long Buckby, Rugby, Coventry, Canley, Tile Hill, Berkswell, Hampton-in-Arden, Birmingham International, Marston Green and Birmingham New Street. (FL-SL at Ledburn)
• London to Rugby calling at Milton Keynes Central, Northampton, Long Buckby and Rugby. (FL-SL at Milton Keynes)
• London to Crewe calling at Milton Keynes Central, Rugby, Nuneaton, Atherstone, Tamworth, Lichfield Trent Valley, Rugeley Trent Valley, Stafford, Stone (1tph), Stoke-on-Trent (1tph), Kidsgrove (1tph), Alsager (1tph) and Crewe.

Regarding the Northampton - Rugby section, do you anticipate those trains calling at Hillmorton/Rugby Parkway?

Also, regarding the Crewe with 1tph running via Stoke-on-Trent, do you anticipate that calling at Barlaston as that will be reopened?

 

[HST43257]

Regarding the Northampton - Rugby section, do you anticipate those trains calling at Hillmorton/Rugby Parkway?

Yes, if it calls at Long Buckby, it calls at Hillmorton too.

Also, regarding the Crewe with 1tph running via Stoke-on-Trent, do you anticipate that calling at Barlaston as that will be reopened?

Yes, if pathing allows

 

[Hadders]

You've managed to slow down services to Northampton with these proposals. That isn't really feasible.

 

[NoRoute]

There needs to be an entirely new service to connect Milton Keynes and Northampton (both 200,000+ population) with Leicester and Nottingham (both 300,000+ population), Loughborough and EM Airport at EM Parkway. These are sizeable towns and cities without a convenient or competitive rail alternative to the M1, so I'd use some of the released capacity to add an entirely new service.

So something like, 1TPH initially, Milton Keynes to Nottingham, calling at:
Milton Keynes, Northampton, Long Buckby, Rugby, Nuneaton, Hinkley, Leicester, Loughborough, East Midlands Parkway for EM Airport, Nottingham

 

[The Planner]

There needs to be an entirely new service to connect Milton Keynes and Northampton (both 200,000+ population) with Leicester and Nottingham (both 300,000+ population), Loughborough and EM Airport at EM Parkway. These are sizeable towns and cities without a convenient or competitive rail alternative to the M1, so I'd use some of the released capacity to add an entirely new service.

So something like, 1TPH initially, Milton Keynes to Nottingham, calling at:
Milton Keynes, Northampton, Long Buckby, Rugby, Nuneaton, Hinkley, Leicester, Loughborough, East Midlands Parkway for EM Airport, Nottingham

One hell of a reversal there at Nuneaton.

 

[PTR 444]

There needs to be an entirely new service to connect Milton Keynes and Northampton (both 200,000+ population) with Leicester and Nottingham (both 300,000+ population), Loughborough and EM Airport at EM Parkway. These are sizeable towns and cities without a convenient or competitive rail alternative to the M1, so I'd use some of the released capacity to add an entirely new service.

So something like, 1TPH initially, Milton Keynes to Nottingham, calling at:
Milton Keynes, Northampton, Long Buckby, Rugby, Nuneaton, Hinkley, Leicester, Loughborough, East Midlands Parkway for EM Airport, Nottingham

Rather than having a direct service that has to reverse at Nuneaton, I think this would be better achieved by routing at least two of the ex Trent Valley services via Northampton. That way, passengers would still have easier access to the East Midlands with a simple change at Nuneaton or Tamworth.

 

[NoRoute]

Rather than having a direct service that has to reverse at Nuneaton, I think this would be better achieved by routing at least two of the ex Trent Valley services via Northampton. That way, passengers would still have easier access to the East Midlands with a simple change at Nuneaton or Tamworth.

Have to disagree because these are now very large towns and cities, over two to three times the size of Nuneaton or Tamworth, so it doesn't seem very logical to have direct rail services to the small towns, while passengers travelling between much larger towns have to change. They warrant a direct service.

 

[PTR 444]

Have to disagree because these are now very large towns and cities, over two to three times the size of Nuneaton or Tamworth, so it doesn't seem very logical to have direct rail services to the small towns, while passengers travelling between much larger towns have to change. They warrant a direct service.

But as another poster mentioned upthread, Northampton to Leicester direct requires a reversal at Nuneaton which will eat up capacity there. Even if such a direct service continued to Derby or Nottingham, it would probably most likely be quicker to change at Tamworth regardless.

 

[zwk500]

There needs to be an entirely new service to connect Milton Keynes and Northampton (both 200,000+ population) with Leicester and Nottingham (both 300,000+ population), Loughborough and EM Airport at EM Parkway. These are sizeable towns and cities without a convenient or competitive rail alternative to the M1, so I'd use some of the released capacity to add an entirely new service.

Does anybody want to travel between those two sets of destinations? I live in MK, and the furthest I've come across people regularly coming to/from is Kettering (which doesn't have a direct rail connection either). EM airport is useless to MK and Northampton, as Birmingham, and Luton offer everything EMA could.

So something like, 1TPH initially, Milton Keynes to Nottingham, calling at:
Milton Keynes, Northampton, Long Buckby, Rugby, Nuneaton, Hinkley, Leicester, Loughborough, East Midlands Parkway for EM Airport, Nottingham

I'll join with others on the reversal at Nuneaton. There's no connection between the Down lines and the Leicester line other than by running forward to Abbey Jn and reversing over the flyover. MK and Northampton passengers can currently change at Nuneaton for Hinkley and Leicester or Tamworth for Nottingham. Further changes at Derby or Leicester give Loughborough/EMP. I could see an argument (admittedly not a good one) for a Birmingham-Nottingham or Derby via Leicester to give WCML access to the middle portion of the MML with only 1 change, but a direct train MK-Nottingham? Not a hope.

By any chance did you happen to travel between MK and Nottingham fairly regularly pre-Covid?

 

[NoRoute]

Does anybody want to travel between those two sets of destinations? I live in MK, and the furthest I've come across people regularly coming to/from is Kettering (which doesn't have a direct rail connection either). EM airport is useless to MK and Northampton, as Birmingham, and Luton offer everything EMA could.

Well given the population sizes, the volume of traffic on the M1 motorway which follows that route, combined with the heavy rush hour congestion on motorway exits suggesting journeys into and out from the major towns and cities, yes I'd say there's a good indication some form of rail service between those towns and cities is worth considering.

I'll join with others on the reversal at Nuneaton. There's no connection between the Down lines and the Leicester line other than by running forward to Abbey Jn and reversing over the flyover. MK and Northampton passengers can currently change at Nuneaton for Hinkley and Leicester or Tamworth for Nottingham. Further changes at Derby or Leicester give Loughborough/EMP. I could see an argument (admittedly not a good one) for a Birmingham-Nottingham or Derby via Leicester to give WCML access to the middle portion of the MML with only 1 change, but a direct train MK-Nottingham? Not a hope.

By any chance did you happen to travel between MK and Nottingham fairly regularly pre-Covid?

If the rail network is going to remain fit for purpose into the 21st century then it needs to adapt to the changing needs of the towns and cities which have been created and grown over the last 50 years and it needs to offer services at least remotely competitive with the roads. When the rail alternative to the M1 is a round-about route via the West Midlands involving one or more changes, then it's woefully uncompetitive against simply driving up or down the M1.

No I don't travel between Milton Keynes and Nottingham but I do travel along that route regularly and as I'm driving up and down the M1 surrounded by masses of other traffic I've often wondered why there isn't a rail alternative between the major towns and cities along that route. I'd always taken the heavy flows of traffic as a good indicator of potential demand for at least a basic rail service.

I'd never thought to myself, surrounded by traffic, nobody wants to travel along this route, or maybe it would be better if we all took a detour with a lengthy break via Nuneaton or Tamworth.

 

[zwk500]

Well given the population sizes, the volume of traffic on the M1 motorway which follows that route, combined with the heavy rush hour congestion on motorway exits suggesting journeys into and out from the major towns and cities, yes I'd say there's a good indication some form of rail service between those towns and cities is worth considering.

If the rail network is going to remain fit for purpose into the 21st century then it needs to adapt to the changing needs of the towns and cities which have been created and grown over the last 50 years and it needs to offer services at least remotely competitive with the roads. When the rail alternative to the M1 is a round-about route via the West Midlands involving one or more changes, then it's woefully uncompetitive against simply driving up or down the M1.

No I don't travel between Milton Keynes and Nottingham but I do travel along that route regularly and as I'm driving up and down the M1 surrounded by masses of other traffic I've often wondered why there isn't a rail alternative between the major towns and cities along that route. I'd always taken the heavy flows of traffic as a good indicator of potential demand for at least a basic rail service.

I'd never thought to myself, surrounded by traffic, nobody wants to travel along this route, or maybe it would be better if we all took a detour with a lengthy break via Nuneaton or Tamworth.

A direct rail route only helps if all that traffic is actually going MK - Nottingham. I'd suspect that a fair proportion of it is actually from London or places beyond like Reading and Brighton, or going further to Sheffield, Leeds or Newcastle.
If you want to reduce traffic on the M1 you'd do far better to fund a larger number of Police patrols and get people keeping left, off their phones and travelling at safe speeds.

Rail cannot serve every possible journey origin/destination pair with a direct service. It is unreasonable to expect it to. Changes should be made simpler, easier and quicker but are a necessary part of the service offering.

 

[DJ_K666]

A direct rail route only helps if all that traffic is actually going MK - Nottingham. I'd suspect that a fair proportion of it is actually from London or places beyond like Reading and Brighton, or going further to Sheffield, Leeds or Newcastle.
If you want to reduce traffic on the M1 you'd do far better to fund a larger number of Police patrols and get people keeping left, off their phones and travelling at safe speeds.

Rail cannot serve every possible journey origin/destination pair with a direct service. It is unreasonable to expect it to. Changes should be made simpler, easier and quicker but are a necessary part of the service offering.

Hopefully there will be more services than just one per hour to Nuneaton which misses the connection into Leicester by 3 minutes, and then one per hour into Leicester. I have reason to go to Leicester but the 57 minute wait at Nuneaton is off putting. Nuneaton is a horrible place so I don't want to spend any more time there than strictly necessary. Thus, I'll take the car, no thanks to the railways. the X84 bus takes two hours! Two!!! Not worthy of being an X route in my view. Sorry Arriva. Hardly environmentally friendly, any of this. Now if only there was a disused railway line between Rugby and Leicester... Oh wait

 

[zwk500]

Hopefully there will be more services than just one per hour to Nuneaton which misses the connection into Leicester by 3 minutes, and then one per hour into Leicester. I have reason to go to Leicester but the 57 minute wait at Nuneaton is off putting. Nuneaton is a horrible place so I don't want to spend any more time there than strictly necessary. Thus, I'll take the car, no thanks to the railways.

And I don't blame you in the slightest. This is what I mean about simple, easy and quick changes. 57 minutes is never going to be accepted. bring it down to 5-10 minutes and you give a fighting chance of persuading people to switch modes.

 

[DJ_K666]

And I don't blame you in the slightest. This is what I mean about simple, easy and quick changes. 57 minutes is never going to be accepted. bring it down to 5-10 minutes and you give a fighting chance of persuading people to switch modes.

I do wonder if the service will improve once the service goes back to normal after Covid. Really a half hourly service on both lines would be preferable. That would at least give a more reasonable waiting time there. Or even deeaying the Cross Country by 10 minutes and bringing the Crewe train forward would give 13 minutes allowing for any platform changes.

 

[PTR 444]

And I don't blame you in the slightest. This is what I mean about simple, easy and quick changes. 57 minutes is never going to be accepted. bring it down to 5-10 minutes and you give a fighting chance of persuading people to switch modes.

What would be ideal is at least 4tph between London and the Trent Valley stations at quarter hourly intervals, in addition to more Birmingham - Derby trains calling at Tamworth and possibly more Brum - Leicester trains. You could have something like this for the WCML:

1tph Euston - Manchester Piccadilly
Calling at: Watford Junction, Milton Keynes Central, Wolverton, Northampton, Long Buckby, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Stoke-on-Trent, Congleton, Macclesfield, Stockport, MANCHESTER PICCADILLY
1tph Euston - Liverpool Lime Street
Calling at: Watford Junction, Milton Keynes Central, Wolverton, Northampton, Long Buckby, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Stafford, Crewe, Winsford, Hartford, Acton Bridge, Runcorn, Liverpool South Parkway, LIVERPOOL LIME STREET
2tph Euston - Crewe
Calling at: Bletchley, Milton Keynes Central, Rugby, Nuneaton, Atherstone, Polesworth, Tamworth, Lichfield Trent Valley, Rugeley Trent Valley, Stafford, Crewe, Stone*, Stoke-on-Trent*, Alsager*, CREWE

*1tph only

 

[HST43257]

You could have something like this for the WCML:
Euston - Manchester Piccadilly
Calling at: Watford Junction, Milton Keynes Central, Wolverton, Northampton, Long Buckby, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Stoke-on-Trent, Congleton, Macclesfield, Stockport, MANCHESTER PICCADILLY
1tph Euston - Liverpool Lime Street
Calling at: Watford Junction, Milton Keynes Central, Wolverton, Northampton, Long Buckby, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Stafford, Crewe, Winsford, Hartford, Acton Bridge, Runcorn, Liverpool South Parkway, LIVERPOOL LIME STREET

Please tell me in what world so many stops would be so attractive to any customer travelling from Northampton to Liverpool?

 

[PTR 444]

Please tell me in what world so many stops would be so attractive to any customer travelling from Northampton to Liverpool?

Local connectivity.
I didn’t even think there was that much demand for Northampton - Liverpool?

 

[Gareth]

Probably nix the stops between Crewe & Runcorn. Ideally, they need a Liverpool-Crewe local and something towards Warrington.

Outside of that, the stops between Liverpool & Northampton seem reasonable.

 

[A0]

There needs to be an entirely new service to connect Milton Keynes and Northampton (both 200,000+ population) with Leicester and Nottingham (both 300,000+ population), Loughborough and EM Airport at EM Parkway. These are sizeable towns and cities without a convenient or competitive rail alternative to the M1, so I'd use some of the released capacity to add an entirely new service.

So something like, 1TPH initially, Milton Keynes to Nottingham, calling at:
Milton Keynes, Northampton, Long Buckby, Rugby, Nuneaton, Hinkley, Leicester, Loughborough, East Midlands Parkway for EM Airport, Nottingham

Sorry, no demand.

I've lived in Northampton for 2 decades and am yet to meet anyone who regularly commutes to Leicester or Nottingham.

People commute to MK, Coventry, Birmingham, London, but not Leicester or Nottingham. Part of that is neither have that many significant employers and particularly not near the stations in the city centre.

People who do commute to Leicester are most likely to be going to jobs around Fosse Park, so the train journey would double the commute time by the time you cover the final leg from the station to Fosse Park.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 May 2021 ==

If the rail network is going to remain fit for purpose into the 21st century then it needs to adapt to the changing needs of the towns and cities which have been created and grown over the last 50 years and it needs to offer services at least remotely competitive with the roads. When the rail alternative to the M1 is a round-about route via the West Midlands involving one or more changes, then it's woefully uncompetitive against simply driving up or down the M1.

No I don't travel between Milton Keynes and Nottingham but I do travel along that route regularly and as I'm driving up and down the M1 surrounded by masses of other traffic I've often wondered why there isn't a rail alternative between the major towns and cities along that route. I'd always taken the heavy flows of traffic as a good indicator of potential demand for at least a basic rail service.

I think you're wrong. Partly because the M1 wasn't envisaged as replicating existing railway lines when it was built - instead it was designed to improve connection between London and Birmingham and London and Leeds. The obvious roads that already existed back then for those journeys were the A1 and A5 / A45. The ECML shadowed the A1, the WCML partly shadowed the A5, the MML shadowed the A5 at its south end far more than the WCML does.

You're making the assumption most of the traffic on the M1 is originating from a major town / city and is heading to another - I think you're wrong. The M1 is a conduit for far more complex journeys than that - which is why a new direct rail links probably isn't the answer - because its use will fall far short of expectations, it will use capacity at key pinch points which is better used in otherways.

 

[NoRoute]

Sorry, no demand.

I've lived in Northampton for 2 decades and am yet to meet anyone who regularly commutes to Leicester or Nottingham.

People commute to MK, Coventry, Birmingham, London, but not Leicester or Nottingham. Part of that is neither have that many significant employers and particularly not near the stations in the city centre.

People who do commute to Leicester are most likely to be going to jobs around Fosse Park, so the train journey would double the commute time by the time you cover the final leg from the station to Fosse Park.

Might it be possible that there are people travelling between these locations that you don't know? Leicester, Nottingham and Loughborough all have substantial universities, might there be students and staff travelling between these and MK and Northampton? There are lots of businesses in the centre of Leicester and Nottingham, offices, retail and government, there's also significant cultural venues, might people be travelling to visit these?

We're talking about a group of very large towns and cities, all with substantial population and business, educational and cultural activity. There's lots of existing rail services between towns which are far smaller, with even less obvious draw to visitors and commuters so applying the same threshold I doubt many of these would be justified.

I think you're wrong. Partly because the M1 wasn't envisaged as replicating existing railway lines when it was built - instead it was designed to improve connection between London and Birmingham and London and Leeds. The obvious roads that already existed back then for those journeys were the A1 and A5 / A45. The ECML shadowed the A1, the WCML partly shadowed the A5, the MML shadowed the A5 at its south end far more than the WCML does.

You're making the assumption most of the traffic on the M1 is originating from a major town / city and is heading to another - I think you're wrong. The M1 is a conduit for far more complex journeys than that - which is why a new direct rail links probably isn't the answer - because its use will fall far short of expectations, it will use capacity at key pinch points which is better used in otherways.

No I don't assume all traffic is between major towns and cities, but what I am pointing out is the situation in the East Midlands is unusual, to have such large towns and cities, connected by a major motorway but with no decent, half-way competitive rail service is unusual and some basic rail service should be considered.

I believe it is result of the rail network being largely unchanged since the 1960s when it reflected the situation at that time, while the subsequent creation of the new towns at Northampton and Milton Keynes and their huge growth, each now over 200,000+ population, leaves the rail network and rail services in this area inadequate and these towns under-served.

 

[zwk500]

Might it be possible that there are people travelling between these locations that you don't know? Leicester, Nottingham and Loughborough all have substantial universities, might there be students and staff travelling between these and MK and Northampton? There are lots of businesses in the centre of Leicester and Nottingham, offices, retail and government, there's also significant cultural venues, might people be travelling to visit these?

We're talking about a group of very large towns and cities, all with substantial population and business, educational and cultural activity. There's lots of existing rail services between towns which are far smaller, with even less obvious draw to visitors and commuters so applying the same threshold I doubt many of these would be justified.

People in MK and Northampton go to London or Birmingham. There is no business with a presence in the East Mids that would not also have a presence in the West Mids and London, same for culture and sport. People travelling to individual universities are unlikely to generate much train traffic, certainly not on a single journey axis. The only reason you'd go to the East Mids from MK/Northampton is if your football or rugby team happened to be playing away that week. As mentioned above, the furthest I have encountered people commuting into MK is from Kettering (barring exceptional circumstances).

No I don't assume all traffic is between major towns and cities, but what I am pointing out is the situation in the East Midlands is unusual, to have such large towns and cities, connected by a major motorway but with no decent, half-way competitive rail service is unusual and some basic rail service should be considered.

If people are travelling from the M25 area to Yorkshire, what good does MK-Nottingham offer?

 

[A0]

Might it be possible that there are people travelling between these locations that you don't know? Leicester, Nottingham and Loughborough all have substantial universities, might there be students and staff travelling between these and MK and Northampton? There are lots of businesses in the centre of Leicester and Nottingham, offices, retail and government, there's also significant cultural venues, might people be travelling to visit these?

We're talking about a group of very large towns and cities, all with substantial population and business, educational and cultural activity. There's lots of existing rail services between towns which are far smaller, with even less obvious draw to visitors and commuters so applying the same threshold I doubt many of these would be justified.



No I don't assume all traffic is between major towns and cities, but what I am pointing out is the situation in the East Midlands is unusual, to have such large towns and cities, connected by a major motorway but with no decent, half-way competitive rail service is unusual and some basic rail service should be considered.

I believe it is result of the rail network being largely unchanged since the 1960s when it reflected the situation at that time, while the subsequent creation of the new towns at Northampton and Milton Keynes and their huge growth, each now over 200,000+ population, leaves the rail network and rail services in this area inadequate and these towns under-served.

University students won't be travelling 50 miles plus on a daily basis to get to university. The costs alone are prohibitive.

There maybe "lots of businesses" in Leicester or Nottingham, but if you live in MK or Northampton you'll find comparable jobs are paid less in Leicester or Nottingham than MK, Luton or London. My own job in IT is an example - commanding a £50-60k salary in MK or Luton, it's more like £40-£50k in Leicester or Nottingham. Part of that is the companies in Leicester or Nottingham, part of that is the local market. If you live in MK why take a 10-15% paycut to work in Leicester compared to MK or Luton?

 

[NoRoute]

University students won't be travelling 50 miles plus on a daily basis to get to university. The costs alone are prohibitive.

No but they will be traveling back and forth for visits, there will be people traveling for training events, industry seminars, lecturers and staff. They're just part of the demand of various groups who have a need to travel between those destinations.

There maybe "lots of businesses" in Leicester or Nottingham, but if you live in MK or Northampton you'll find comparable jobs are paid less in Leicester or Nottingham than MK, Luton or London. My own job in IT is an example - commanding a £50-60k salary in MK or Luton, it's more like £40-£50k in Leicester or Nottingham. Part of that is the companies in Leicester or Nottingham, part of that is the local market. If you live in MK why take a 10-15% paycut to work in Leicester compared to MK or Luton?

Firstly this is a gross simplification, labour isn't a homogeneous lump and wages aren't that uniform. There are job opportunities at either end which might be attractive to people in other towns, in different stages of their career. So movement isn't only in one direction.

Secondly even if movement were mostly in one direction overall, if there are significant wages differences then you now have a strong incentive for professionals living in Nottingham or Leicester who could increase their earnings by commuting south to MK.

 

[A0]

No but they will be traveling back and forth for visits, there will be people traveling for training events, industry seminars, lecturers and staff. They're just part of the demand of various groups who have a need to travel between those destinations.



Firstly this is a gross simplification, labour isn't a homogeneous lump and wages aren't that uniform. There are job opportunities at either end which might be attractive to people in other towns, in different stages of their career. So movement isn't only in one direction.

Secondly even if movement were mostly in one direction overall, if there are significant wages differences then you now have a strong incentive for professionals living in Nottingham or Leicester who could increase their earnings by commuting south to MK.

But there isn't enough of these "occasional travellers" to make a rail service viable.

The services which are viable are those which serve a regular user base e.g. London / Birmingham / Manchester commuter routes.

Like @zwk500 my experience is very few people commute into MK from further afield than Northampton. I've known a handful from Daventry or Rugby and only penny numbers beyond that - and that's working in MK for over 2 decades now. And they were nowhere near Leicester or Nottingham stations so rail wouldn't have been viable for them either way.