Successful prosecution stories

[michael769]

I have to agree with Clip. Smartcards will not prevent fraud.

They may prevent certain types of fraud that occur with paper tickets, but they will also introduce other avenues that fraudsters can exploit.

People who intend to defraud the railway will always find ways to do it.

 

[34D]

Really? Theres an awful lot of fraud still being carried out with users of that other smart card - Oyster - being comitted on the rail network now by people having only zone 1- 2 TCs on them and travelling from much further out.

How will ITSO prevent this when tickets are not being checked now and people are still being fraudulent with Oyster?

May I suggest we distinguish between fraud (ie ticket tampering/alteration) and the lack of a ticket for the complete journey - whilst I am sure both are fraud from the point of view of s. 5.3 RoRA they are two different things.

I suppose the word fraud is valid to use for both though.

 

[Clip]

May I suggest we distinguish between fraud (ie ticket tampering/alteration) and the lack of a ticket for the complete journey - whilst I am sure both are fraud from the point of view of s. 5.3 RoRA they are two different things.

I suppose the word fraud is valid to use for both though.

If its valid to use it for both then there is no reason to stop calling it fraud.Tampering/alteration and lack of ticket for complete journey is still defrauding the railways out of revenue.

Still no answer as to how ITSO will prevent this though,which is interesting.

 

[Mr-Bungle]

Rumour goes around that a bogus manager was travelling around wearing a revenue protection manager badge. The companies eight revenue protection staff were searching the north of England for this chap, as he was maiking their team look ridiculous. He looked the part, suit, tie, laptop on the table, a lanyard with a "Revenue Protection" ID badge hanging around his neck. On one occasion, he had ordered an unsuspecting guard to return to his cab at Heald Green for being 'incompetent' and took over the checking of tickets on the train himself. This and several other incidents went on for some time, including incidents with him taking buses out of a depot in Huddersfield and driving them around 'problem routes'.

Agreed that this is perhaps a rumour, or possibly a basically true tale which has grown in the telling. ANYONE, genuine rail official or not, trying that one aboard a train I was working would be off at the next stop and I don't know any other guard who would not react in the same way.

 

[34D]

If its valid to use it for both then there is no reason to stop calling it fraud.Tampering/alteration and lack of ticket for complete journey is still defrauding the railways out of revenue.

Still no answer as to how ITSO will prevent this though,which is interesting.

Well, let's assume its secure enough to not be hacked.

When every station has entry/exit readers, then not having touched in would be an offence. But yes, this relies on on-train checks.

 

[yorkie]

Really? Theres an awful lot of fraud still being carried out with users of that other smart card - Oyster - being comitted on the rail network now by people having only zone 1- 2 TCs on them and travelling from much further out.

Not really fraud though. Smart cards can help prevent fraud but they cannot prevent misuse.

Having a Zone 1-2 Travelcard and travelling from much further out is equally possible with either Oyster or a paper ticket, so it's not an Oyster problem at all. Nor is it a Travelcard problem as it could be done with any ticket (e.g. Brighton - Preston Park Season + Clapham Jn - Victoria Season would operate the barriers at both ends). Certain TOCs rely too much on barriers (which, according to the DfT are the solution to everything) and no on-board checks. I do not think I have ever had a check on a DOO service operated by Southern or SET, nor on any SWT inner-suburban service (which are not DOO but the guards are non-commercial).

 

[Clip]

Well, let's assume its secure enough to not be hacked.

When every station has entry/exit readers, then not having touched in would be an offence. But yes, this relies on on-train checks.

Its hard to see how secure it can be though - give people enough time and they will hack it, its what some people into computers like to do just to say they can do it rather than for misues.

Not really fraud though. Smart cards can help prevent fraud but they cannot prevent misuse.

Having a Zone 1-2 Travelcard and travelling from much further out is equally possible with either Oyster or a paper ticket, so it's not an Oyster problem at all. Nor is it a Travelcard problem as it could be done with any ticket (e.g. Brighton - Preston Park Season + Clapham Jn - Victoria Season would operate the barriers at both ends). Certain TOCs rely too much on barriers (which, according to the DfT are the solution to everything) and no on-board checks. I do not think I have ever had a check on a DOO service operated by Southern or SET, nor on any SWT inner-suburban service (which are not DOO but the guards are non-commercial).

Oh I understand its the same for paper as it is for Oyster but I was just using it as an example of where we already have smart ticketing which can be mis-used.

I suppose the use of the word fraud rightly or wrongly is probably just down to semantics really. I just kind of use it as a catch all because in my eyes whether you have under paid for your journey or outright not using a ticket/hacking a smartcard is still being fraudulent.


ETA: I was going to ask if Oyster had been hacked and thought I should really google it .. And it appears it was a few years back but I cant seem to find a reliable source about it

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Still no answer as to how ITSO will prevent this though,which is interesting.

At the risk of veering off-topic, I can inform you that theoretical solutions to that very question have been devised, and at least one has actually been the subject of a practical experiment on board specially-equipped trains. The system tested moved the point of card reading from the platform (or gateline) to the doors of the train, around which readers sensed all cards passing through the doors, on and off.

Clearly, implementing such a system brings a vast challenge and cost, and has its weaknesses (such as being blind to the transfer of cards to another person), but I mention this one example to illustrate how much consideration has been given to the question of fraud with ITSO tickets.

 

[flymo]

At the risk of veering off-topic, I can inform you that theoretical solutions to that very question have been devised, and at least one has actually been the subject of a practical experiment on board specially-equipped trains. The system tested moved the point of card reading from the platform (or gateline) to the doors of the train, around which readers sensed all cards passing through the doors, on and off.

Clearly, implementing such a system brings a vast challenge and cost, and has its weaknesses (such as being blind to the transfer of cards to another person), but I mention this one example to illustrate how much consideration has been given to the question of fraud with ITSO tickets.

So, in your example above, what would happen if I have an ITSO card in my wallet and it happened to pass near to the reader on the door of the train yet I had a paper ticket for my journey? Are you saying the reader would read my ITSO card on and off, deduct any appropriate amount even though I had a valid ticket and chose not to use the ITSO card??

If that is the system being proposed, I hope they have an unbelievably large complaints department...

 

[185]

Agreed that this is perhaps a rumour, or possibly a basically true tale which has grown in the telling. ANYONE, genuine rail official or not, trying that one aboard a train I was working would be off at the next stop and I don't know any other guard who would not react in the same way.

Was a very true tale. The company had sent out about 50 text alert messages to all it's conductors (two or three each day) and issued a couple of memos up to the point where he was stopped. Problem is, when a new company takes over with far too many managers, it becomes easier for staff overlook an impostor.

 

[sheff1]

So, in your example above, what would happen if I have an ITSO card in my wallet and it happened to pass near to the reader on the door of the train yet I had a paper ticket for my journey? Are you saying the reader would read my ITSO card on and off, deduct any appropriate amount even though I had a valid ticket and chose not to use the ITSO card??

Or you had more than one ITSO card ?

I would be very interested to see more info on this 'experiment'.

 

[jon0844]

The range for NFC based cards is pretty low so I am not sure if there's a way to read, programme or clone from a large distance. There's also the need to interact with a card, which takes time. Even legitimate ITSO cards appear to be too slow at the moment to replace Oyster. Imagine a brute force hacking and how long that might take. Easy to demonstrate in controlled conditions but harder in reality.

People will always want to hack anything encrypted but my point was a smart card stops the obvious frauds (counterfeiting or tampering with a ticket), or issues with not having a railcard, as well as being able to instantly kill a lost or stolen ticket (thus making it possible to issue multiple replacements). It won't stop misuse by people travelling beyond the validity, having more than one card for skipping stations etc. They will be detected through checks on journeys as now.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

 

[RPI]

Well I hope a little bit of fraud remains or i'll be on the dole! lol

 

[185]

Well I hope a little bit of fraud remains or i'll be on the dole! lol

There'll come a day when we're opening the window, throwing their tickets out, and then trying to do them for having no ticket

 

[sheff1]

Well I hope a little bit of fraud remains or i'll be on the dole! lol

Don't worry, whenever money is involved, some people will try to find ways to avoid spending theirs.

Also, regardless of the checks/sceurity in place, a small % of those people will succeed.

 

[Clip]

At the risk of veering off-topic, I can inform you that theoretical solutions to that very question have been devised, and at least one has actually been the subject of a practical experiment on board specially-equipped trains. The system tested moved the point of card reading from the platform (or gateline) to the doors of the train, around which readers sensed all cards passing through the doors, on and off.

Clearly, implementing such a system brings a vast challenge and cost, and has its weaknesses (such as being blind to the transfer of cards to another person), but I mention this one example to illustrate how much consideration has been given to the question of fraud with ITSO tickets.

Of this I was unaware of so thanks for bringing it to my attention so I actually understand more about what they are doing with it rather than speculating.

As has already been said in the post below yours though this idea could be fraught with problems if people split using paper tickets with an ITSO one...

Also this sounds like taking the guard from ticket checking duties already. And what about someone just creating a reader/card that fools the ITSO reader into thinking it has correctly scanned a card? This surely wouldnt be too difficult for people to make would it? After all if the technology is out there to make it in the first place then it stands to reason that the tech is out there to break it too.

Just like the ones that broke the Oyster system a few years back.

 

[LondonJohn]

Of this I was unaware of so thanks for bringing it to my attention so I actually understand more about what they are doing with it rather than speculating.

As has already been said in the post below yours though this idea could be fraught with problems if people split using paper tickets with an ITSO one...

Also this sounds like taking the guard from ticket checking duties already. And what about someone just creating a reader/card that fools the ITSO reader into thinking it has correctly scanned a card? This surely wouldnt be too difficult for people to make would it? After all if the technology is out there to make it in the first place then it stands to reason that the tech is out there to break it too.

Just like the ones that broke the Oyster system a few years back.

I am sure I remember a feature on the Tomorrow's World programme a few years ago when Judith Hann, if I remember was rushing for a makeshift train with a manual ticket inspection but couldnt find her ticket and missed her train. The solution they had was an airport style security arch that detected the ticket on the passenger.. nothing has become of it really since then.

 

[jon0844]

I believe Sainsbury's is trying to introduce a system where NFC tagged items can be put in a trolley and then the entire trolley is analysed at the exit, with you being charged automatically - so no need to scan barcodes either at a till, or using a reader (ala Waitrose).

I believe my local store will be starting a trial that runs for a year for staff (and family) before being opened up to the public.

I did hear this from an employee at Sainsbury's so have no idea how true this is - but it could be one of the first real implementations. There will be issues about how much power is needed to read all the tags and, more important, how it will read them all quickly enough - and avoid people being able to hide/shield items from being read.

Clearly people will try and find ways to block the signal from reading certain tags but in a way that they'll claim ignorance - and it will be hard to prove shoplifting if you weren't actually made to scan items or check every item appears on your receipt.

 

[michael769]

There has been talk about NFC auto checkouts for about 15 years. I guess the technology has at last reached the point where it can be trialled.

The way to deal with the risk of blocking the tags will be to weigh the nitre trolley (similar to the way current self checkouts weigh bags to make it hard to slip unscanned items in)

 

[jon0844]

Yes, that would likely work - although as a lot of people will bring their own bags (or boxes) I guess you'd need to weigh the trolley going in as well as out.

I wonder how much people will accept the need to effectively go to a special cubicle to have the trolley weighed and scanned - and the fact it won't be instant. Obviously that's what a trial will establish so I hope they begin soon. No doubt there are grocery forums discussing the inevitable job cuts that will come from it (but do they have such powerful unions?!).

 

[Deerfold]

There has been talk about NFC auto checkouts for about 15 years. I guess the technology has at last reached the point where it can be trialled.

The way to deal with the risk of blocking the tags will be to weigh the entire trolley (similar to the way current self checkouts weigh bags to make it hard to slip unscanned items in)

"Unexpected item somewhere in your trolley".

Oh boy.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

There has been talk about NFC auto checkouts for about 15 years. I guess the technology has at last reached the point where it can be trialled.

The way to deal with the risk of blocking the tags will be to weigh the nitre trolley (similar to the way current self checkouts weigh bags to make it hard to slip unscanned items in)

Some warehouses have weighed vehicles in and out for years.
At the weighbridge you may be told ''please return to the warehouse and check your load!''

One day we will all be tagged....as you enter the station the sign lights up ''sorry Mr Nopenny you have insufficient credits, please exit to the left''

Merseyrail have a clear notice of the consequences for persons who have not paid their fare.
http://www.merseyrail.org/about-us/prosecutions.html

 

[OwlMan]

Or you had more than one ITSO card ?

I would be very interested to see more info on this 'experiment'.

But you will need to have readers on trains rather than platforms if TOC only fares are allowed. Otherwise how would the card know if you travelled between Rugby & Coventry on LM or Virgin (First?)

Peter

 

[snail]

There has been talk about NFC auto checkouts for about 15 years.

Like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xNhL39uD7I

 

[BestWestern]

There has been talk about NFC auto checkouts for about 15 years. I guess the technology has at last reached the point where it can be trialled.

The way to deal with the risk of blocking the tags will be to weigh the nitre trolley (similar to the way current self checkouts weigh bags to make it hard to slip unscanned items in)

Supermarkets really are frighteningly desperate to get rid of staff, aren't they?" hock: Do these people not make enough money as it is, they really feel the need to take such extreme measures? I wonder how long it will take our business leaders to cotton on to the fact that none of these vultures will be making any money at all when they have put the vast majority of the population out of work :roll:

As for weighing the trolley, if the horrendously unreliable, temperamental and down right crap 'self checkout' kit is anything to go by, people will avoid these places in their droves and go shop somewhere else.

 

[Brucey]

But you will need to have readers on trains rather than platforms if TOC only fares are allowed. Otherwise how would the card know if you travelled between Rugby & Coventry on LM or Virgin (First?)

Peter

There are no plans for a national PAYG system, so the ticket would still have been loaded before travel at the ticket machine, ticket validator (or ticket office).

 

[OwlMan]

There are no plans for a national PAYG system, so the ticket would still have been loaded before travel at the ticket machine, ticket validator (or ticket office).

Are you sure?
I am working on a contract at present looking at various ways of implementing PAYG on a national scale

 

[Brucey]

Are you sure?
I am working on a contract at present looking at various ways of implementing PAYG on a national scale

It was about 6 months ago this was confirmed to me by someone in senior managerial position at a TOC.

They basically said without amending the entire fare system, there are far too many factors involved in a national system. They did believe that local systems would probably be possible.

 

[jon0844]

I can't see why a PAYG system can't work nationwide.. not everyone is buying tickets that cost hundreds of pounds. However, I'd expect such a system to work with PAYG credit for people to use for short journeys on an ad hoc basis, perhaps including local buses etc - and a system to load on longer distance tickets purchased online in advance, or from a ticket window ('please touch your card here sir') after paying - like loading a Travelcard season on an Oyster.

The great thing about the national system is that if I go from London to Scotland, I may use PAYG on my local bus to the station, then load my advance ticket to Edinburgh and then step off and use the card on the local buses there, or local trains. No hassle, no exact money worries etc.

I can't see how such a system wouldn't work and if the card is lost or stolen, it's easy to cancel and replace. Joe Public will almost certainly accept them, or even demand them now they're already perfectly happy to use Chip & Pin cards and gradually getting used to contact less payments with Visa, Mastercard etc.

The quicker this happens the better, for all of us. It won't solve everything overnight, but it certainly won't make things worse.

Lots of localised systems seems the worse option, as you now need to have people sourcing another card to carry when travelling to somewhere new. And with so many people having an Oyster already, it would make sense to standardise that so Londoners already have a card they can use elsewhere (hey, it might just encourage more to venture beyond the M25!).

 

[Brucey]

When I referred to a "national PAYG system" above, I meant PAYG in the sense of "load credit and go", like Oyster.

Of course there is work going on to allow tickets to be loaded onto the card. I believe SWT already have a working system allowing this on their TVMs.