Successful appeal. Still charged admin fee

[Spogip]

Hello,

I recently was issued a £20 fine for travelling without a ticket. The reasons why are unimportant so I wont go into detail, but I appealed within the time limit and was successful and had the fine reduced from £20 to the fare for the journey (£3.40). This was done through Penalty Services.

I was under the impression that as long as I appealed within the time limit, I would not have to pay the fine until the matter was resolved. However, I have now been issued a fine of £20 + the £3.40 (now more than the original fine), because the letter from the appeals company did not arrive before the deadline to pay.

I called London and South East Railway to try to get to grips with the matter this morning, and was spoken to extremely rudely by the telephone operator, who was simply not prepared to explain the matter to me, just telling me that I did not pay in time and I now owed £23.40, and if I would not pay, she would terminate the call. Which she did.

Should I have paid the £20 fine and then appealed for a refund? Do I now have no choice but to pay this fine? Can I appeal the admin fee for late payment? Can I pay the £3.40 and let them take me to court for the £20?

I am really not sure what to do and am worried to call again in case I am rudely spoken to?

Any advice would be gratefully received?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, the correct procedure, odd though it seems, is to pay the £20 and *then* appeal. This is rather reversed from parking offences where payment accepts liability - in the land of PFs it does not, and if your appeal succeeds it is refunded.

You are best advised to pay. If it is taken to Court you will lose (the Byelaw offence is strict liability) and may get a criminal record depending on the circumstances.

Then take it up with the TOC Customer Services to see if you can get them to refund it.

 

[hawk1911]

Yes, the correct procedure, odd though it seems, is to pay the £20 and *then* appeal. This is rather reversed from parking offences where payment accepts liability - in the land of PFs it does not, and if your appeal succeeds it is refunded.

You are best advised to pay. If it is taken to Court you will lose (the Byelaw offence is strict liability) and may get a criminal record depending on the circumstances.

Then take it up with the TOC Customer Services to see if you can get them to refund it.

Whilst I agree with the advice (pay up and then appeal), I do wonder if this is covered by the Byelaws.

It seems to me (based on the information provided by the OP) that they 'won' the appeal against the original (Byelaw) offence and have now been hit by a 'late payment' charge. Failure to hold a valid ticket may be a strict liability under the Byelaws, but the late payment, in itself, may not.

Notwithstanding the above, I agree that the correct process, for the OP, is to pay up and then appeal.

 

[Spogip]

Thanks both for your responses.

Of course I am happy to pay the fare of £3.40 (as I was trying to do at the time I was issued with the fine), and am happy the the appeal was successful. I am just sad that the procedure was not made clear to me when I was being issued with the fine. The issuing officer made it very clear that I would have to appeal within 21 days, but did not mention that payment would also have to be made in this time. I left under the impression that no payment was necessary until the appeal had been settled. Had I known this, of course I would have paid it immediately.

Could I appeal the admin fee, or perhaps ask for it to be reduced? £20 seems an awful lot, since all they have done is send a single letter. If I could afford it, I would just pay and accept that I didn't read the small print, but really cant afford a £20 fine for nothing.

Thanks

 

[Bletchleyite]

The best thing to do is probably to pay then get onto the TOC customer services with your story, you might manage to get a RTV out of them or something.

 

[cuccir]

I'm a little unclear about the timings of all this and what you've been asked to pay.

Did the request for the admin fee come alongside/after the request for the £3.40? I'm just wondering if that was sent out before the penalty fare was cancelled.

If your appeal was successful because you did not break any rules, then I'd suggest sending the payment for the fare and not the admin fee. I'd send a short note stating that you presume that because the penalty fare was cancelled, the admin fee no longer applies.

If you did break the byelaws and the appeal has been granted as a gesture of goodwill or some such, then I'd pay the admin fee. Check over your documentation too - are you sure that this wasn't explained somewhere?

 

[Spogip]

I was issued the fine on 22nd Sept. I appealed the next day.

The response from penalty services showing the successful appeal was dated 20th October. This states "This appeal has been successful and is now considered closed, however, the fare of £3.40 for the journey you made is still liable for payment".

A reminder was then sent from Revenue Protection Support Services on 31st Oct, stating that I owed £23.40 to include a late payment admin charge of £20.

I have moved house since the fine was issued and collected both these letters yesterday.

I just rang London Midland Customer services to see if they could do anything, and they just gave me the same phone number I rang this morning where I was treated so rudely. I cannot see any reasoning with them.

 

[furlong]

I was issued the fine on 22nd Sept. I appealed the next day.

So was the delay leading to the charge entirely on their side? You'll need to read the paperwork you were given originally to work out what the contractual basis for it might be and whether it's enforceable - e.g. did you agree to it when accepting the notice and was the relevant term explained to you?

 

[gray1404]

Which train company is this? Is it South Eastern or London Midland? I would take the view that this £20 admin fee would now be a pure civil matter provided you pay the rail fare outstanding. Given your appeal was upheld I do not think they could then take you to court to argue otherwise.

 

[Spogip]

The £20 fine was issued on the spot on 22nd September. On the fine it says you have 21 days to pay or you will incur a fine for late payment, and 21 days to appeal. I signed this document. However, from the discussion with the issuing officer it was not made clear that I would have to make payment to avoid the late payment charge as well as appeal. He initially informed me that I had 21 days to pay, but I could also appeal. When I said that I would appeal, he said I had 21 days to appeal. It was not made clear that if I appeal, I should also pay and if the appeal was successful I would get a refund.
I wrongly assumed from this conversation that as long as my appeal was received in time, payment would only be due after the appeal process had run it's course.
The letter from appeals arrived one week after the 21 day deadline for payment. So technically the late payment fee would have been applied before appeals had finished dealing with it.

 

[Spogip]

It is London Midland

 

[gray1404]

Do you still have the slip you were given, it would be useful to look at the wording on there to see if it is misleading.

 

[cuccir]

You are meant to pay and then appeal.

However, I would still only send them the payment for £3.40. I would cite the following

This appeal has been successful and is now considered closed

I don't see how there can be an admin fee for a closed and cancelled penalty fare.

If you have not already sent payment for the fare, however, I would do so immediately, as it is now a little over 2 weeks since they notified you of this.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

If you forget your season ticket on LM, isn't it normal procedure to sell you a full-price ticket (rather than issue a penalty fare), which you can then get refunded on providing proof of your season ticket? I understand you can only do this a couple of times a year. But I'm sure it's supposed to be a full-price ticket rather than a penalty fare?

That's what's happened to me a couple of times when I've arrived at New Street without my nTrain...

 

[Spogip]

I have attempted to pay £3.40, but they have refused it saying that I am only able to pay the full amount. The admin fee cannot be removed, appealed or refunded.

 

[Spogip]

There is no customer service line, only a payment line.

 

[gray1404]

If a customer forgets their season ticket 2 times a year they can have a ticket refunded without an administration fee for the refund. If the customer only discovers the forgotten ticket upon ticket inspection then if they are issued with a Plenty Fare (it is NOT a fine!) for £20 or twice the single fare, zero payment is taken at the time, but the entire thing should be cancelled when the customer sends in a copy of their season ticket.

Spogip has not given us the full details as to why they were issued with a plenty fare and on what basis they appealed so the above may not be relevant to them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have moved house since the fine was issued and collected both these letters yesterday.

Ah. Sadly that isn't their issue (and is a suggestion for the future to redirect your post!); I think you will just have to pay (or risk debt collection action at least). It sounds like you were given 11days for payment of the original amount and failed to do so. A bit short but enough unless you were on holiday.

 

[Spogip]

I do not have a season ticket, I was issued the penalty fare for travelling without a ticket from a station where the ticket machine was out of order. It was proven that I was unable to purchase a ticket before travel. And that I was unable to get to the on board ticket officer as the train was so busy, you could not move. I was issued the penalty fare at my destination station when trying to pay for my ticket at the booth before leaving exiting the barriers.

 

[Spogip]

It sounds as if I will have to give in and pay. Although I would have been better off being a criminal fare dodger and accepting the £20 penalty fare, than I would have been appealing as the honest daily fare paying person that I am and being stumped with a £23.40 fine from a debt collector. To top that, being bullied and treated like a criminal over the phone. It is so sad that this is the way of the world.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It sounds as if I will have to give in and pay. Although I would have been better off being a criminal fare dodger and accepting the £20 penalty fare, than I would have been appealing as the honest daily fare paying person that I am and being stumped with a £23.40 fine from a debt collector. To top that, being bullied and treated like a criminal over the phone. It is so sad that this is the way of the world.

Or maybe the lesson is that you should have redirected your post? That is your responsibility; it could have been anything else important that arrived, not just a letter about ticketless travel. All the more important as you knew you would receive correspondence.

Yes, there's a fee for redirecting post, but it isn't a lot.

Had you done so it'd have been paid on time and only cost 3 and a bit quid.

 

[gray1404]

There are some other forum members who are knowledgeable on these things who have not commented yet and may do so this evening. I would be interested in their take on the matter. London Midland are not very pro-prosecution. If they refuse to take the money I would post them a cheque for the rail fare and obtain a free proof of posting at the Post Office tomorrow.

I personally (so I state clearly this is what I would do and I am not saying the OP should or should not do the same) would try calling LM again and this time record the phone call using an app. I would explain the situation and offer them their outstanding rail fare. I would also put in a separate complaint to customer service, have it escalated to a Manager and take it to Transport Focus - assuming they do not back down. This will cost money for the them to have deal with and look into but it does cost your time as well. I would also let my MP know. Surely they would be very interested i their constituents are going to the station to find the machine out of order then being issued with a plenty.

LM should NOT be issuing a PF if a ticket machine was out of order and there was no open ticket office or alternative TVM. You then were proactive at trying to pay your fare but they issued a PF. I am sure you will have truthfully stated at the time the time the reason you didn't have a ticket but he/she still chose to issue a PF which is against the PF regulations in those circumstances. You then appeal and win and they ask for more money on top. You then offer to pay the fare but they refuse and hang up on you after being rude. It is just one failure after another on the part of London Midland.

The press would have a field day on this one.

 

[cuccir]

I agree that speaking to or making contact with the right person at London Midland would make this go away. You've probably got to get around automated systems and their apparently poor customer service system.

There is no way that you should be paying this £20 fee for a Penalty Fare that they cancelled. Of course, it all depends a little on how much hassle you're prepared to go through for the sake of being right, and for £20...

If you do pay, complain immediately.

 

[gray1404]

It really is the principle of the matter here. I actually think the OP should also be getting compensated by LM for their failings.

I think it will be harder for them to get it back once they have paid it rather then not paying and sticking to just paying the fare.

I have the contact details for their Customer Relations Supervisor which I will happily PM but would they just say i needed to be dealt with by Prosecutions?

 

[island]

Post a cheque for the £3.40 to them without further delay. The £20 admin fee has no basis in law and cannot be enforced.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Case law is generally that a contractual late payment fee should only cover the actual costs of late payment (some parking cases have recently muddied the water, but they don't really apply here).

I would also pay the £3.40 by cheque, which is the fare due, enclosing a covering letter and a copy of the appeal adjudication showing your appeal was successful. The charge for a successful appeal should not be higher than the charge for an unsuccessful one.

I would not pay the £20 charge, as it is unlikely you'll ever see that again.

 

[gray1404]

Thinking this through some more, I do not see any basis for charging an admin fee for something that should not have been levied in the first place.

How can it be: -
Charge incorrectly made ---> appeal upheld so charge cancelled ---> impose administration charge for not paying the charge (the one that should never have been made in the first place and has been cancelled).

It makes so logical sense and has no legal basis.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thinking this through some more, I do not see any basis for charging an admin fee for something that should not have been levied in the first place.

How can it be: -
Charge incorrectly made ---> appeal upheld so charge cancelled ---> impose administration charge for not paying the charge (the one that should never have been made in the first place and has been cancelled).

No, the admin fee is for late payment of the fare (the £3.whatever) which remains due.

 

[gray1404]

But when was the OP advised that they had to pay the £3.40 fare due? This was only once they had been informed that the appeal had been upheld. Before that they were being asked for £20 which they disputed. They were advised on 20 October that the £3.40 rail fare is outstanding. However, 11 days later an additional £20 charge is added on top. 11 days is not a reasonable amount of time to pay it, moreover when one takes into account they would not have received the letter until a few days after it was sent.

 

[furlong]

These situations seem unnecessarily muddy to me. The original paperwork is crucial here as, if written and communicated well, it could provide enforceable provisions for these types of circumstances. Otherwise Penalty Fares schemes seem to remain strangely silent as to what winning an appeal actually means in law, but I suppose you might interpret it as acceptance that the Penalty Fare was imposed unlawfully and therefore unenforceable. Then the train company considers that its unlawful act can simply be rescinded without consequence and that under the original contract it then becomes entitled to the normal fare for the journey, which it requests afresh - your new letter. If this is the method they use, it seems to leave no room for an admin fee as it's not part of the original contract. Alternatively, if you consider that the issuance of the Penalty Fare remains lawful and a successful appeal cancels it in its entirety, then that should be the end of the matter and I don't see enforceable provisions even to allow them to obtain a second, replacement, fare for the journey.