Suburban stock on long runs

[HMS Ark Royal]

142/144s have made it from Leeds to Scotland before, although thats not been in passenger service

 

[RichJF]

When they were around...Class 508 on London Bridge - Tunbridge Wells/Maidstone West (via Redhill). There was once a London Bridge - Strood via Redhill service.

I still think the 455 from Victoria-Dorking-Horsham is a bit unsuitable.

 

[tsr]

I still think the 455 from Victoria-Dorking-Horsham is a bit unsuitable.

There are indeed numerous reasons they are unsuitable. Likewise between London Bridge or Victoria and Guildford via extended routes, including Victoria - Guildford via Crystal Palace and West Croydon.

The main problem is that sending them to Horsham doesn't really work very well with an 8 car (doors on the rear 2 coaches must be manually locked shut from Dorking to Horsham and v/v), so you mainly have to find a roughly appropriate time to send only 4 car formations down there unless there's no alternative - and of course they are hopelessly impractical in terms of large gaps at platforms, toilet facilities, collecting revenue from unstaffed stations...

Mind you, more than once have I had to go down to Horsham via Dorking on a 377 with broken PIS and no functioning toilets. So there you go.

 

[43096]

Hardly a 'metro' design? With 2+2 seating, generous legroom, tables, 2+1 first class and buffet car! I for one think they are very comfortable, more so than their ECML equivalents.

Tables? Where? There are more bays of 4 in a Thameslink 387 than a GWR HST. I stand by my original assertion.

 

[LBSCR Times]

In many cases the length of the journey is irrelevant, as there are very few passengers who would travel throughout, especially on services south of the Thames.
No-one would travel from London Bridge to Strood via Redhill!

 

[DarloRich]

Liverpool to Birmingham is worse (where there are some /2s as well) as LM provide the only direct services between Liverpool and Birmingham. Virgin provide 4tph between London and Birmingham so the only end to end travellers on the LM London to Birmingham are the people who want to travel for less than the Virgin fare. It's a reasonable expectation that if you travel on the budget service you get a lower standard of train.

Birmingham - Euston: 112 miles

Liverpool - Birmingham: 88 miles

The 350/1 is fine for service north of Northampton, especially if a 350/2 is coupled up. a 350/2 is fine for Liverpool - Birmingham

What is worse is a 350/2 on a Euston - Crewe service!

 

[Taunton]

No-one would travel from London Bridge to Strood via Redhill!

I can remember seeing this service, operated by a single Class 508, passing through New Cross Gate one midday some years ago when it was operating, and thinking what a useless little train it appeared. It had almost nobody in it. Then I thought "Orcats Raid".

Meanwhile, back on the original topic, I see it being proposed that the new dedicated HS2 sets from London to the north may have suburban 3+2 seating. I wonder what idiot thought this one up.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Rather off-topic, bearing in mind that there are other HS2 threads, but it is only fair to note that the HS2 dedicated sets will be built to a much more generous loading gauge than the classic-compatible ones.

Many trains on the dedicated Japanese Shinkansen lines have 3+2 seating. The legroom is generous and they are generally comfortable. Not at all like the UK suburban feel.

Frankly it would be pointless not to exploit the potential on HS2, bearing in mind that capacity is the main justification.

 

[northwichcat]

Birmingham - Euston: 112 miles

Liverpool - Birmingham: 88 miles

The 350/1 is fine for service north of Northampton, especially if a 350/2 is coupled up. a 350/2 is fine for Liverpool - Birmingham

You've completely missed the point. If you want to do the 112 mile journey there's a Pendolino available, if you're avoiding using that to save money then so what if you don't have high quality long distance stock, you've chosen the budget option.

Is your objection to 350/2s on Birmingham-Euston services because some call at Bletchley and you don't like travelling on them?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

the London - Brighton Bike run specials were - for some years - 12 EPB - in theory non stop but often regulated at Redhill. Seat cushions were turned upside down on half of the cars - and a mass of temporary staff (students I suspect) assisted with the loading at Brighton. A long and honourable Southern tradition here - with up to 12 8 x 12 x SUB workings + on Summer weekends in the 1950's.

West Yorks 321/9 deputised for class 91 on a select number of GNER workings Leeds to London after the bearing derailment at Sandy in / around 1996 !

Western Region used to turnout class 120 sets for Summer Saturday Paddington - Cardiff reliefs - technically not suburban sets

 

[clagmonster]

West Yorks 321/9 deputised for class 91 on a select number of GNER workings Leeds to London after the bearing derailment at Sandy in / around 1996 !

Didn't at least one 317 work north of Peterborough as well in the same farce? I think it made at least York.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And, once or twice, to Hull

141s to Hull weren't that rare. I'm not sure they were booked, but it was quite common for one to escape on a Sheffield/Donny to Hull. I think the odd one worked Leeds/York - Hull too. Not sure if they ever went to or through Beverley, I never saw it happen but I wouldn't be against it.

 

[Taunton]

the London - Brighton Bike run specials were - for some years - 12 EPB - in theory non stop but often regulated at Redhill. Seat cushions were turned upside down on half of the cars - and a mass of temporary staff (students I suspect) assisted with the loading at Brighton.

I can recall seeing this, having gone down to Brighton to greet cycling colleagues, in what I would guess would be around 1988-89, and went to look at the returning specials. The back four were being used for loading the cycles, forward set for the humans, and what struck me right there was the seats were NOT turned over, but the bikes were just being stacked several-deep straight onto the cushions, that the next morning would be depositing all that chain oil onto the suits of Surrey's finest, commuting into London Bridge. The good old Trojan moquette seemed to be tough enough to handle this mistreatment without ripping. Although in theory the seats could be turned over for parcels workings as well, I do recall that in latter times they were fixed and this couldn't be done.

 

[A0]

I still think the 455 from Victoria-Dorking-Horsham is a bit unsuitable.

Which is a shorter run than either Kings Cross - Cambridge or Peterborough both of which can result in a 317 or 319 - so not markedly different to a 455.

And I think there are still some Bedford - Brighton services operated by 319s - (though thankfully not for much longer).

 

[Deepgreen]

the London - Brighton Bike run specials were - for some years - 12 EPB - in theory non stop but often regulated at Redhill. Seat cushions were turned upside down on half of the cars - and a mass of temporary staff (students I suspect) assisted with the loading at Brighton. A long and honourable Southern tradition here - with up to 12 8 x 12 x SUB workings + on Summer weekends in the 1950's.

West Yorks 321/9 deputised for class 91 on a select number of GNER workings Leeds to London after the bearing derailment at Sandy in / around 1996 !

Western Region used to turnout class 120 sets for Summer Saturday Paddington - Cardiff reliefs - technically not suburban sets

I used the Brighton bike specials a couple of times and then they were scheduled to call at several stations en route from Brighton to London - I think those being Redhill, East Croydon and Clapham Junction. Each coach for bikes had the cushions removed and was labelled according to destination station - i.e. one coach was for Redhill bikes only and so on. They even had circular sticker 'headboards' (see attached) reading "The Bicycle Belle".

 

[DarloRich]

You've completely missed the point. If you want to do the 112 mile journey there's a Pendolino available, if you're avoiding using that to save money then so what if you don't have high quality long distance stock, you've chosen the budget option.

No i haven't.

By traveling by LM you are paying for a reduced level of customer service/comfort on the Birmingham-London route. On LM there are no seat reservations, no wifi, no plugs (unless a 350/3) no refreshments, limited tables, more stops, a slower & longer journey and a less direct route etc.

LM compete on price, Virgin on time.

You can travel by Pendolino between Birmingham and Liverpool with a change at Crewe with only a limited time penalty against the LM service.

Is your objection to 350/2s on Birmingham-Euston services because some call at Bletchley and you don't like travelling on them?

What an strange little chap you are. Seeing as Bletchley is my local mainline station the more trains that stop there the better! :roll:

A 350/2 is perfectly fine on the Northampton - Euston services that tend to stop at Bletchley and I use every day. As a combination a 350/1 and a 350/2 seems to kill two birds with one stone on the longer runs north of Northampton leaving the 350/3 for the Crewe runs.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Do I have to come and break you two up...?

 

[northwichcat]

No i haven't.
...
You can travel by Pendolino between Birmingham and Liverpool with a change at Crewe with only a limited time penalty against the LM service.

If you're going from A to B you're usually going to use the fastest service. If you've never travelled between Liverpool and Birmingham again why on earth would you expect to be subjected with commuter seating unless you take a slower journey option involving a change? You wouldn't, therefore 3+2 seating is not acceptable on Liverpool to Birmingham services.

By saying you can change and have a slower journey using Pendolinos you've proved that you have in fact missed the point I was making.

Seeing as Bletchley is my local mainline station the more trains that stop there the better! :roll:

Some Birmingham-London services stop at Bletchley, no Liverpool-Birmingham services do. That's the only plausible reason I could think of why you said 3+2 seating wasn't acceptable on LM's Birmingham-London service but is on LM's Birmingham-Liverpool service, or can you give a more plausible reason? You've haven't managed to so far!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do I have to come and break you two up...?

Just keep the replacements for the ex-Silverlink 321s off the ex-CT Liverpool to Birmingham service and I'll be quiet.

 

[DarloRich]

If you're going from A to B you're usually going to use the fastest service.

No - it depends on the circumstances as to which train you chose. Price is one factor, as is time, as is speed.

If you've never travelled between Liverpool and Birmingham again why on earth would you expect to be subjected with commuter seating unless you take a slower journey option involving a change? You wouldn't, therefore 3+2 seating is not acceptable on Liverpool to Birmingham services.

So: you don't like 3+2 seats. Got you. It doesn't seem that much of an inconvenience for an 88 mile run, albeit a slow 88 mile run when they could easily appear on c.165 mile run

I don't see any reason in your posts why such a train is unacceptable beyond personal taste. Sadly, putting something in BOLD doesn't make it so.

Why are 350/2 not suitable on a run between Birmingham and Liverpool?

By saying you can change and have a slower journey using Pendolinos you've proved that you have in fact missed the point I was making.

No: i am saying that you have a choice of providers, just like Birmingham - London, albeit in reverse. You can pay for the comfort of Virgin or the speed (!)of LM

Some Birmingham-London services stop at Bletchley, no Liverpool-Birmingham services do. That's the only plausible reason I could think of why you said 3+2 seating wasn't acceptable on LM's Birmingham-London service but is on LM's Birmingham-Liverpool service, or can you give a more plausible reason? You've haven't managed to so far!

Clearly no Liverpool - Birmingham service stop at Bletchley :roll: A detour of around 150 miles might mean service times were not competitive.

However, perhaps if you explained yourself in a clear and logical fashion it might help. That said, you don't seem able to offer any evidence to support your view, other than putting it in bold.

My view on why 350/2 are unsuitable (note not unacceptable) on Birmingham - London should be obvious: To compete and win business from Virgin you need to play the hand you are dealt to the best possible advantage. Therefore, put your best train on your premier route and try to maximise profits.

Are you suggesting that Liverpool - Birmingham offer a better return for LM than Birmingham - London?

 

[northwichcat]

Clearly no Liverpool - Birmingham service stop at Bletchley :roll: A detour of around 150 miles might mean service times were not competitive.

However, perhaps if you explained yourself in a clear and logical fashion it might help. That said, you don't seem able to offer any evidence to support your view, other than putting it in bold.

Until now your arguments haven't made any sense so I suggested you want the better stock for services stopping at Bletchley. Of course Birmingham-Liverpool services don't call at Bletchley (that was precisely the point!!) but you seem happier with dumping commuter stock on a pseduo Intercity route, which doesn't serve your area opposed to a long stopping service which does.

My view on why 350/2 are unsuitable (note not unacceptable) on Birmingham - London should be obvious: To compete and win business from Virgin you need to play the hand you are dealt to the best possible advantage. Therefore, put your best train on your premier route and try to maximise profits.

If Govia's aim was to provide a 'premier route' to compete with Virgin then they wouldn't have withdrawn the refreshment trolley on their 350s, they would have introduced wi-fi before DfT forced them etc. However, their aim for Euston services seem to be to provide a basic no frills service so they can offer very cheap Advance fares and win passengers from Virgin, especially those who can't afford Virgin's Anytime fares, in the same way Ryanair attract passengers from traditional airlines. Are 350/2s not good enough for a basic no frills service?

You've actually contradicted yourself about Liverpool-Birmingham. You're making out LM have no competition one minute so a 'premier service' isn't required and 350/2s are OK but then you're pointing out alternative options involving a change. There is, of course, other competition like the ATW very nicely refurbished 158s operating between Chester and Birmingham. For instance, if you live in Northwich you could catch a bus to Hartford station where you can catch the LM service or a train to Chester from where you can catch the ATW service.

Are you suggesting that Liverpool - Birmingham offer a better return for LM than Birmingham - London?

Liverpool-Birmingham seems to do very well for loadings without offering ridiculously priced Advance tickets. I don't know how Birmingham-Euston loadings compare but I imagine they do well at peak times due to how expensive Virgin's Anytime tickets are.

So: you don't like 3+2 seats.

I think 3+2 seating should only be used on genuine short commuter services. Liverpool to Birmingham is not short or a commuter service, it's only about 10 minutes quicker than taking the slow stopper from Birmingham to London.

 

[DarloRich]

Until now your arguments haven't made any sense so I suggested you want the better stock for services stopping at Bletchley. Of course Birmingham-Liverpool services don't call at Bletchley (that was precisely the point!!) but you seem happier with dumping commuter stock on a pseduo Intercity route, which doesn't serve your area opposed to a long stopping service which does.

You are the one who:

a) mentioned Bletchley as as topping point for Birmingham to Liverpool trains and
b) seem keen not to have 3+2 seats on trains you use.

In fact that seems to be your only argument. It is good to clarify that your position boils down to one of "i don't like it therefore it shall not be acceptable"

have you a real reason why such a seating layout is "unacceptable" on an 88 mile journey?

If Govia's aim was to provide a 'premier route' to compete with Virgin then they wouldn't have withdrawn the refreshment trolley on their 350s, they would have introduced wi-fi before DfT forced them etc. However, their aim for Euston services seem to be to provide a basic no frills service so they can offer very cheap Advance fares and win passengers from Virgin, especially those who can't afford Virgin's Anytime fares, in the same way Ryanair attract passengers from traditional airlines. Are 350/2s not good enough for a basic no frills service?

The trolley made no money. Wifi is not part of their service specification agreed with DfT. Are you saying you would spend your money to install things not required under your contract and onto vehicles you don't own? Your landlord must be a happy man! Perhaps LM should take all the seats out an go for some kind of Ryan Train concept.

The 350/2 is not unacceptable on such a journey just not ideal. Have you a reason why they should not be acceptable on a shorter journey, say between Liverpool and Birmingham?

I notice you don't like being asked to explain your view or facing any form of challenge to those views.

You've actually contradicted yourself about Liverpool-Birmingham. You're making out LM have no competition one minute so a 'premier service' isn't required and 350/2s are OK but then you're pointing out alternative options involving a change. There is, of course, other competition like the ATW very nicely refurbished 158s operating between Chester and Birmingham. For instance, if you live in Northwich you could catch a bus to Hartford station where you can catch the LM service or a train to Chester from where you can catch the ATW service.

No: You implied their was no competition between Liverpool and Birmingham. I pointed out that there was competition if you were prepared to change at Crewe. That example also agreed (in reverse) with your justification for using 350/2 between London and Birmingham.

Liverpool-Birmingham seems to do very well for loadings without offering ridiculously priced Advance tickets. I don't know how Birmingham-Euston loadings compare but I imagine they do well at peak times due to how expensive Virgin's Anytime tickets are.

So why not put the best trains on the busiest or most profitable services. I doubt that will be the Liverpool train

I think 3+2 seating should only be used on genuine short commuter services. Liverpool to Birmingham is not short or a commuter service, it's only about 10 minutes quicker than taking the slow stopper from Birmingham to London.

At what mile point should TOCs been prohibited from using a 3+2 layout for their trains. For instance a 350/2 will often turn up on a Rugby to Euston service which is a broadly similar distance to Liverpool - Birmingham.

Surely they should be used on those services which carry the most commuting passengers. On LM that will be Euston services south of Northampton or Rugby (which very soon will be Coventry or Nuneaton) or into Birmingham from, say, Coventry or Wolverhampton

 

[cactustwirly]

Until now your arguments haven't made any sense so I suggested you want the better stock for services stopping at Bletchley. Of course Birmingham-Liverpool services don't call at Bletchley (that was precisely the point!!) but you seem happier with dumping commuter stock on a pseduo Intercity route, which doesn't serve your area opposed to a long stopping service which does.



If Govia's aim was to provide a 'premier route' to compete with Virgin then they wouldn't have withdrawn the refreshment trolley on their 350s, they would have introduced wi-fi before DfT forced them etc. However, their aim for Euston services seem to be to provide a basic no frills service so they can offer very cheap Advance fares and win passengers from Virgin, especially those who can't afford Virgin's Anytime fares, in the same way Ryanair attract passengers from traditional airlines. Are 350/2s not good enough for a basic no frills service?

You've actually contradicted yourself about Liverpool-Birmingham. You're making out LM have no competition one minute so a 'premier service' isn't required and 350/2s are OK but then you're pointing out alternative options involving a change. There is, of course, other competition like the ATW very nicely refurbished 158s operating between Chester and Birmingham. For instance, if you live in Northwich you could catch a bus to Hartford station where you can catch the LM service or a train to Chester from where you can catch the ATW service.



Liverpool-Birmingham seems to do very well for loadings without offering ridiculously priced Advance tickets. I don't know how Birmingham-Euston loadings compare but I imagine they do well at peak times due to how expensive Virgin's Anytime tickets are.



I think 3+2 seating should only be used on genuine short commuter services. Liverpool to Birmingham is not short or a commuter service, it's only about 10 minutes quicker than taking the slow stopper from Birmingham to London.

The Birmingham to Liverpool service is a local stopping service, not an intercity service.
It is mainly there to serve Penkridge, Winsford, Hartford and Acton Bridge. Therefore I believe 3+2 seating is justified, as most people will be alighting at intermediate stations. Just like the local stopping service between Oxford and Paddington, any sain person would use XC and change at Reading

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Originally Posted by RichJF
I still think the 455 from Victoria-Dorking-Horsham is a bit unsuitable.

Which is a shorter run than either Kings Cross - Cambridge or Peterborough both of which can result in a 317 or 319 - so not markedly different to a 455.

The difference is, the 455s don't have toilets whereas the 317s and 319s do.

 

[northwichcat]

The Birmingham to Liverpool service is a local stopping service, not an intercity service.
It is mainly there to serve Penkridge, Winsford, Hartford and Acton Bridge. Therefore I believe 3+2 seating is justified, as most people will be alighting at intermediate stations. Just like the local stopping service between Oxford and Paddington, any sain person would use XC and change at Reading

That makes no sense. Half of services run non-stop between Runcorn and Crewe, while Hartford is the only station between Runcorn and Crewe which gets a full hourly service, Winsford gets skipped some hours while Acton Bridge only gets a few services per day.

As for being there to mainly serve Penkridge really? I've never heard anyone in the North West say they are getting the train to Penkridge. Crewe, Stafford, Wolverhampton and Birmingham - definitely - people say they are going to those stations all the time but Penkridge?

I never said Intercity service, I said pseudo Intercity service. It has to make some additional calls between Liverpool and Crewe due to lack of paths for a stopper alongside the LM and Virgin services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You are the one who:

a) mentioned Bletchley as as topping point for Birmingham to Liverpool trains a

If you are post replies please can you refrain from posting false claims about what I said.

Is your objection to 350/2s on Birmingham-Euston services because some call at Bletchley and you don't like travelling on them?

Where does that say Liverpool to Birmingham services call there?

I have already told you once since that I didn't make a stupid statement like that and you made an incorrect assumption. If you are going to continue to post lies because you don't agree with me then I refuse to listen to your point of view anymore.

 

[Deepgreen]

The difference is, the 455s don't have toilets whereas the 317s and 319s do.

Plus a 25mph-ish top speed difference.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Just like the local stopping service between Oxford and Paddington, any sain person would use XC and change at Reading

Um, any sane person would use the half-hourly direct trains.

 

[sprinterguy]

The Birmingham to Liverpool service is a local stopping service, not an intercity service.
It is mainly there to serve Penkridge, Winsford, Hartford and Acton Bridge.

I'm not sure where you get that idea from. It's the fastest and only direct service between Birmingham and Liverpool, and if Stafford and Crewe aren't far bigger traffic generators than Penkridge, Winsford, Hartford and Acton Bridge I'd be absolutely astonished.

Most of the traffic, if not all end-to-end inter-city traffic, will be between the cities at either end and the major towns inbetween.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Plus a 25mph-ish top speed difference.

Yes, that is true.

I'd personally have no objection to a long run on a 319, or on a 317 with the original seating style ( which I think the 317/5s still have? )

 

[DarloRich]

That makes no sense. Half of services run non-stop between Runcorn and Crewe, while Hartford is the only station between Runcorn and Crewe which gets a full hourly service, Winsford gets skipped some hours while Acton Bridge only gets a few services per day.

As for being there to mainly serve Penkridge really? I've never heard anyone in the North West say they are getting the train to Penkridge. Crewe, Stafford, Wolverhampton and Birmingham - definitely - people say they are going to those stations all the time but Penkridge?

I never said Intercity service, I said pseudo Intercity service. It has to make some additional calls between Liverpool and Crewe due to lack of paths for a stopper alongside the LM and Virgin services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


If you are post replies please can you refrain from posting false claims about what I said.



Where does that say Liverpool to Birmingham services call there?

I have already told you once since that I didn't make a stupid statement like that and you made an incorrect assumption. If you are going to continue to post lies because you don't agree with me then I refuse to listen to your point of view anymore.

What an odd man: My apologies for slightly misrepresenting your position, although I was attempting to be slightly factious to make a point.

The 350/2 stop at Bletchley all day, every day. I have no problem with that and I will no doubt be on one this evening and tomorrow.

I notice you haven't answered this simple question: What is your objection to 350/2 on an 88 mile journey?

If it is that you dint like them very much i am happy to agree. I dont like them much either.

 

[northwichcat]

The 350/2 stop at Bletchley all day, every day. I have no problem with that and I will no doubt be on one this evening and tomorrow.

I notice you haven't answered this simple question: What is your objection to 350/2 on an 88 mile journey?

Do you have a very poor memory?

I've mentioned already you originally said 350/1s on Birmingham-Euston and 350/2s on Liverpool-Birmingham without providing any reason why, so I suggested given the lack of any reasoning you wanted the best trains for Bletchley given some Birmingham-Euston services call there. You later came back and said it you reasoning was due to competing with Virgin.

If you go back to page 1 of the thread and read onwards we've already discussed 350/1s, 350/2s and 350/3s before you joined in the conversation and myself and other people have all given justified ideas for which routes should and shouldn't get the /2s. That's why when you joined in and said /1s for Birmingham to Euston and /2s for Birmingham to Liverpool it made no sense as it disagreed with what everyone else who had commented on the route had sense and you provided no reasoning for disagreeing.

 

[DarloRich]

Perhaps it is my small brain or blindness but i cant find any example of you clearly stating why you think that a 3+2 train is unsuitable for an 88 mile journey between Liverpool and Birmingham. Perhaps you could provide a summery your reasoning here: