Subsidy for French infrastructure

[Freel07]

Mods note: moved from http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=51928

It's still not as convenient as London Charing Cross or London Cannon Street. Especially when it's pouring (remember it's Scotland ). London Fenchurch Street has a lot to learn too

Just remember that all the excellent infrastructure you enjoy in France is subsidised to the hilt by the UK via the EU. It doesn't leave much cash to spend on ourselves.

 

[T163R]

Well that's not really true...

 

[Bill EWS]

Just remember that all the excellent infrastructure you enjoy in France is subsidised to the hilt by the UK via the EU. It doesn't leave much cash to spend on ourselves.

Are you for real? EU subsidy covers all EU countries.

 

[T163R]

''Just remember that all the excellent infrastructure you enjoy in France is subsidised to the hilt by the UK via the EU. It doesn't leave much cash to spend on ourselves.''

Are you for real? EU subsidy covers all EU countries.

Off-topic but...do you know the "Quote" button ?

 

[WestCoast]

Just remember that all the excellent infrastructure you enjoy in France is subsidised to the hilt by the UK via the EU. It doesn't leave much cash to spend on ourselves.

I suppose you think France just don't contribute to the 'EU pot'? :roll: What a ridiculous statement. The UK has access to subsidies just like other member states.

No, this is the work of poor transport planning and lack of appropriate investment in public transport in years gone by, with a policy that once firmly focused on roads. Look at our past governments and their policies for answers.

 

[shinkansen1966]

I suppose you think France just don't contribute to the 'EU pot'? :roll: What a ridiculous statement. The UK has access to subsidies just like other member states.

No, this is the work of poor transport planning and lack of appropriate investment in public transport in years gone by, with a policy that once firmly focused on roads. Look at our past governments and their policies for answers.

Agreed

• SRA was set up and then scrapped
• Waterloo international now unused
• 15 transport ministers in 15 years
• East Coast rail services have had four owners in 15 years
• Thameslink 2000 delayed again
• Bus stations sold, to be replaced by supermarkets
• Dysfunctional financially mismanaged bus network (outside London)
• Commission for Integrated Transport scrapped in October 2010
• Leeds council spent money on planning a city tram network, only for the DfT to scrap it
• Diesel trains running their entire service under electric wires
• EU offered money to allow Durnoch bridge include both road and rail. DfT turned it down. So it's a road only bridge.

 

[Ze Random One]

It should be noted that, in terms of subsidy, RFF (the French Infraco, cf. Network Rail) received €2400M in DIRECT investment subsidy in 2009/10. There's lots of other ways that government can also subsidise, for example by allowing RFF to overstate the track access charges, then sending money via the SNCF or other operators, but I'll discount that for now.
The equivalent figure for Network Rail and LCR was £3800M, or about €4400M give-or-take exchange rates at the time.

Even with that, apparently direct, comparison, we are still perhaps not comparing apples with apples, as we haven't compared what the terms on any loans are (we may be paying our loans off faster or slower than the French)

In terms of subsidies for the operators, SNCF received €1100M in investment subsidy in 2009. Our figure was around £800M (or about €900M) in operational subsidies to the TOCs and PTEs.
(I'm not clear over whether the PTEs with their own rail infrastructure were expected to use this to finance that as well.)

So it appears that, overall, the French spent €3500M and we spent €5200M on subsidising our national networks in 2009.
Putting this into a per-passenger rate, the French spent €3.18 on every passenger journey, and we spent €4.00 on every passenger journey in 2009, although it should be noted that the French carry their passengers further, and RFF/SNCF aren't lumbered with the (often loss-making) intensively used urban networks that NR are (Glasgow, Liverpool, Birmingham, Cardiff...).

As another comparison, RFF themselves state that their infrastructure costs per line-km are €190 000 per km, whereas Network Rail spend €230 000 per km (as do DB Netz in Germany!)


(NB. I use millions, as the word billions can confuse the numbers, since it means different things in French and English)

 

[shinkansen1966]

So it appears that, overall, the French spent €3500M and we spent €5200M on subsidising our national networks in 2009.
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Be interesting to see which country has the better network, more reliable trains, better rolling stock or cheaper fares.

 

[Ze Random One]

Be interesting to see which country has the better network, more reliable trains, better rolling stock or cheaper fares.

All very subjective questions!
What's a better network? More extensive geographically? Even if that network has many lines with 1 train a day? What about network speed?

More reliable trains? There are many ways of measuring that. Punctuality? By what margin, and where do you measure? Reliability in terms of cancelled services? Excess waiting time?

Better Rolling Stock? How is that measured? Age? On board facilities? Seats per passenger? (remember about carting around fresh air!) Compliance with Disability Legislation? Trains with buffets? Ability to carry an unboxed bicycle (remember TGVs can't)? What about bustitutions?

Cheaper Fares? Walk-up only? Advances? A "basket" of fares? Price paid per passenger?

Stats are hard. That is why they are easily misunderstood, misreported and misused.

What I have looked at is a single financial year. Many railway assets depreciate over 30+ years, meaning that something I buy now will still have a residual value 29 years later. So perhaps we shouldn't be looking at the annual subsidy for infrastructure, but the thirty year subsidy (adjusted for any loans)?

It should be noted that UK Government subsidy in 1999/00 was £1400M. But perhaps that was too low? Remember the Hatfield disaster in 2000? Perhaps too many assets had exceeded their useful lives, and costs were being artificially kept down?

As an addendum to my previous post, here's some figures for 2010 from France:
€1100M from the national government to SNCF for operations
€3800M from local governments to SNCF for operations
€ 250M for various social transports (Military, Family discounts)
plus €3000M to RFF for infrastructure debts etc.
and €2900M to SNCF to pay pensions

which comes to a total of €11000M in subsidy.

The UK, particularly, has a fully funded pension scheme for rail workers (although there may be some shortfall in it), meaning that it does not at present require any state support.

I can't find any source for local government subsidy of rail services in the UK. I think, but am not sure, that the Scottish Government's subsidy to First goes via the DfT, but if I am wrong, you can add about £250M to the costs. Other local governments have next to no money for railways anyway, so I'd be astonished if the sum total of Council, PTE and Welsh contributions was above about £500M.

 

[Gordon]

• SRA was set up and then scrapped
• Waterloo international now unused
• 15 transport ministers in 15 years
• East Coast rail services have had four owners in 15 years
• Thameslink 2000 delayed again
• Bus stations sold, to be replaced by supermarkets
• Dysfunctional financially mismanaged bus network (outside London)
• Commission for Integrated Transport scrapped in October 2010
• Leeds council spent money on planning a city tram network, only for the DfT to scrap it
• Diesel trains running their entire service under electric wires
• EU offered money to allow Durnoch bridge include both road and rail. DfT turned it down. So it's a road only bridge.

And in roughly the same time span as much of the above, France has built at least 650km of LGV high speed line, and 12 (yes twelve) French cities have built tram networks from scratch, from preliminary thoughts to public tram services running.

'Great' Britain has still not achieved Thameslink 2000 (my commuter line) and even when it does, the central portion will still only be two tracks, so that if a train breaks down or one signal fails (as happens frequently - both the above happened last week alone) the service collapses ...





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