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Stupid...pleeeaaaasseeee help!!!!!!!

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stupidboy201

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I travelled to manchester from blackburn. i bought a train ticket from blackburn to bolton via my debit card. i wanted to buy a train ticket to manchester from bolton. as i got to manchester i was getting late for my bus to work. so i was taking the easier exit and intend to buy the return ticket of manchester to bolton on my retur. however i was stopped by an inspector. stupidly i gave wrong details as i was terrified and scared. then before they rang to confirm i thought to give correct details. what will happen to me. i am terrified and don't want a criminal record or £1000 fine. please help!!!!!!!!!!!

How long does it take for norther rails letter
 
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reb0118

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Oh dear!...............




I'm off to work in 5mins. (so will reply fully on my return this evening) but I do believe that you have ticked almost all the boxes for a successful prosecution.

Oh dear, oh dear. Silly boy indeed.
 

bb21

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So you were getting to work? Is there any reason why you did not buy the Manchester ticket to start with?
 

stupidboy201

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So you were getting to work? Is there any reason why you did not buy the Manchester ticket to start with?

because this one particular day i thought it would be cheaper to get them separate. works out the same price. but i had to get a return anyways so i was definately going to buy it. however i was stupid afraid and terrified and gave wrong details at first. he was about to call before he did i gave my real details.
 

najaB

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I am terrified and don't want a criminal record or £1000 fine. please help!!!!!!!!!!!
Sigh. I wish I could be the bearer of good news, but if Northern decide to prosecute then a criminal record is highly likely.

You've short-fared (while having both the means an opportunity to pay the full fare), attempted to 'sneak' out of the station and given false details to the inspector - all of which point to a deliberate attempt to defraud the railway.

The only thing in your favour is that it's Northern Rail - they seem less prosecution happy than other TOCs, but with a case as blatant as yours you would be lucky to get away with their £80 make-believe penalty fare.
 

stupidboy201

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Sigh. I wish I could be the bearer of good news, but if Northern decide to prosecute then a criminal record is highly likely.

You've short-fared (while having both the means an opportunity to pay the full fare), attempted to 'sneak' out of the station and given false details to the inspector - all of which point to a deliberate attempt to defraud the railway.

The only thing in your favour is that it's Northern Rail - they seem less prosecution happy than other TOCs, but with a case as blatant as yours you would be lucky to get away with their £80 make-believe penalty fare.

i was actually feeling sick and puckish and wanted to just get out for some fresh air. could a doctors note prove to help me?
 

stupidboy201

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Sigh. I wish I could be the bearer of good news, but if Northern decide to prosecute then a criminal record is highly likely.

You've short-fared (while having both the means an opportunity to pay the full fare), attempted to 'sneak' out of the station and given false details to the inspector - all of which point to a deliberate attempt to defraud the railway.

The only thing in your favour is that it's Northern Rail - they seem less prosecution happy than other TOCs, but with a case as blatant as yours you would be lucky to get away with their £80 make-believe penalty fare.

whats the worst that will happen?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
if i appeal and it gets denied will the situation get worse?
 

DaleCooper

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i was actually feeling sick and puckish and wanted to just get out for some fresh air. could a doctors note prove to help me?

I thought it was because you had to catch a bus.

By the way the Oxford Dictionary definition of puckish is:

Playful, especially in a mischievous way

which may explain everything.
 
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Crossover

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i was actually feeling sick and puckish and wanted to just get out for some fresh air. could a doctors note prove to help me?

No - you won't be able to get a doctors note for how you may have felt at the time - either way, note or no note, it still doesn't excuse your reported actions!
 

DaveNewcastle

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if i appeal and it gets denied will the situation get worse?
You haven't any grounds for appeal that you've told us. Feeling unwell doesn't usually explain asking for the wrong ticket or giving the wrong name or address.

If this is the first time you've been found travelling without the proper ticket, then you could be facing in the region of £100 to £400 (partly depends on your income). But as najaB said, Northern Rail generally allow first time offenders an option of an administrative settlement of £80.
 

najaB

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whats the worst that will happen?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
if i appeal and it gets denied will the situation get worse?
My reply is based on what I have gathered from previous cases discussed in this forum, I am not a lawyer.

The worst that could happen is a three month prison sentence and fine of up to £1000. But that isn't likely to happen for a one-off offence.

Realistically speaking, I would expect Northern to prosecute you under the Regulation of Railways Act, and I can't see how that prosecution wouldn't be successful. You would likely get a fine (at a guess somewhere around £300 in total between costs, fine, outstanding fare, victim surcharge, etc.) but not receive a custodial sentence.

This conviction is recordable and would appear on any DBS checks for one year, after which time it would be considered 'spent'.
 

Agent_c

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OP, you appear to be looking for a magic phrase to get you out of this bother.

I hate to say it, but there isn't one.

You got on the train without tickets for your entire journey. Maybe you intended to split, maybe you didn't, but by not having all the tickets at that time, just one, it looks like fare dodging. The only magic phrase that gets you out of that bother is buying a fare at the excess fares window, which you didn't.

Rather than resolve the situation at the end point, you decided to try to leave. Maybe you were sick, maybe you were late for the bus, but the fact is, you tried to leave. No magic phrase is going to get you out of that.

When confonted, you chose to lie. No magic phrase is going to get you out of that.

The only phrase that can help you is "I'm sorry, I was an idiot, how can I put this right? Can I pay a settlement in lieu of prosecution?", and you communicate it to the train company when they write to you.
 

oncebitter

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So...

A friend of mine was recently in a similar situation. Said friend came to this forum a fair bit to seek advice [as an observer, not a poster], and said to themselves that they'd post their thoughts online once all was said and done. All is now said and done. This friend may be somewhat vague on some of the details in the below but they're quite clear that the situation of the OP was [sort of] similar to theirs. This friend also knows how stupid they were, and how lucky they were to resolve their issue without a prosecution. This is just opinion of course, and my friend would like to remind anyone seeking advice that there is other, similar advice available on these forums from more experienced posters and that this advice is - of course - incomplete without knowing what's in the RPI's book. Finally my friend would like to say thank you to other contributors to this forum as they read it a fair bit a few months back. Anyway...

Here's the grim bit - because of the false details you are almost certainly going to be put forward for prosecution [by which I mean a court date], barring an extremely well worded letter or intervention from a solicitor. Many times people say 'wait for the letter/summons and act after that' but because you have in this case committed 2 offences it's, in my friends opinion, likely you'll be put forward for prosecution and your day in court, unless you met a particularly kind RPI who chose not to write up your indiscretion. Others may disagree [and I would note it varies from TOC to TOC], but I am speaking using my friend's experience of a similar case that was heading to the court, with a similar TOC.

While you are asked to write on the back of the initial letter from NR, this is not the only correspondence you can send them. They will accept other written statements, or evidence, after the 14 day period in which they want their letter back. If, for example, you feel you need to send supporting evidence then you can do so.

My advice, in the simplest terms, is consult a solicitor. A local law firm will be able to help with the wording of your letter. There are a number of firms that specialize in fare evasion matters who will cost more but have a better knowledge of the prosecutors at the TOCs, and of how to mount a defence on your behlaf. I don't want to sound like I'm doom-mongering, but reading your posts you don't sound like a great wordsmith and i think the language you will be required to use to adequately state your case may need some help from outside. That isn't meant as any kind of insult, it's just advice.

If you choose not to get help writing your letter my advice would be as follows:

If you regularly pay for rail travel then say so, and prove it [tickets, bank statements, season tickets]

State that you are willing to admit to your offence if - as it appears - you are guilty of them, and don't wish to fight it. From your posts thus far I think you stand little chance of fighting it successfully.

If this was GENUINELY a one off incident [ergo you have never been in trouble on the railways before] then say so, and make it very clear that this one off incident won't be happening again. Assuming you have never been arrested or in any trouble with the police - state this also.

If, for some reason, some outside event has caused you undue stress/issues on the day of the incident then state so - HOWEVER - this piece of advice comes with the warning that if you state this to be the case you MUST be able to prove it as well. I.E. - if you were stressed because of 'exams' make sure you can prove you have exams at this time of year, if you were stressed because you were being evicted then make sure you have an eviction notice from your landlord that proves this, if you were stressed because your house burnt down then provide details, a crime reference number and so on. In short - don't just say this if you were chancing your arm and you can't really prove it. You mention you were ill - were you really? Were you SO ill that you weren't thinking straight. Could you prove this in a court of law? Ergo - it's not just a "stomach bug" but a long term health condition/mental health condition that you have documentary evidence for?

I think you're a student. So presumably you are aiming to do something in life that would be made difficult with a criminal record? Again, state this, but you MUST be able to prove it [I.E. A degree or course acceptance certificate]. Also if, for example, you GENUINELY would lose your job if you got a criminal record [again, you need to prove this and not just say it - so a provide a contract that details this fact clearly] again state this. If you lose your job then the public purse may need to step in to provide for you so - it could be argued - your prosecution is not in the public interest.

The message I'd like to send with the above, not just to you but to anyone who - like my friend - might happen upon this post is that just 'saying' these things won't wash. Anyone can say they were stressed, ill, knackered or whatever - you must be able to prove it, and if you can't prove it then don't say it. Or don't try to prove it in a half arsed way as no one will be interested in that. Don't play meaningless sympathy cards that don't stand up to scrutiny.

If you have documentation that proves the sort of things I have mentioned in the above, you may wish to consider submitting them with a letter, or as a separate package. I really want to be very clear on this so will say it again - if you can't prove it, don't submit it. A good example might be credit card statements - if they PROVE regular travel patterns, and regularly paying for travel then by all means submit them. If they suggest broken travel patterns then I'd think twice about sending them in. I'm going out on a limb here, but there's something about the way you bought tickets on this occasion that make me think you may not wish to submit these.

Finally, and obviously, state that you are looking to resolve this matter via a settlement, and that you are willing to pay any reasonably incurred costs for the TOC.

And needless to say, apologise for your never to be repeated mistake.

As a side issue, we all really want to avoid a criminal record of course, but getting one really isn't the end of the world. For most employers it'd be a bit akward and a pain in the arse to state that you have one [which you would need to if asked], but by no means does it close every door previously open to you. That isn't me advocating getting a criminal record btw! More saying that the world keeps turning if you have one.

Good luck.

And thanks again to these forums from my friend. It's a tough place a lot of the time, and sometimes offers advice and comments you may not want to hear, but it's better to be braced for the worst and prepared than it is to think it'll all just be OK.
 

Camden

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With the screw being turned on subsidies, and Northern Rail being expected to run a top notch service throughout the north (re George Osborne's endless pledges to the northern powerhouse), you can understand why they might want to take a strong position on fare evasion.

Prosecuting might (or might not) be more expensive individually, but the deterrent effect of fundamentally lowering fare evasion, both detected and undetected, could be of more value to them anyway.

I don't think the OP is endearing themselves to the people on this forum by talking about doctors' notes (as taxpayers we are all paying for that GPs time, just as we are all subsidising travel for those who don't pay their way) and talking about appealing. Appeal what exactly. I think the best the OP can expect from here is a frank assessment as to the potential knock on impacts of what they've done.
 
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najaB

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I don't think the OP is endearing themselves to the people on this forum by talking about doctors' notes (as taxpayers we are all paying for that GPs time, just as we are all subsidising travel for those who don't pay their way) and talking about appealing. Appeal what exactly. I think the best the OP can expect from here is a frank assessment as to the potential knock on impacts of what they've done.
I read it as a desperate person clutching at straws, rather than an attempt to escape responsibility. Given their username and post title, I think they realise that they've had an error of judgement.
 

Deerfold

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I think you're a student. So presumably you are aiming to do something in life that would be made difficult with a criminal record? Again, state this, but you MUST be able to prove it [I.E. A degree or course acceptance certificate]. Also if, for example, you GENUINELY would lose your job if you got a criminal record [again, you need to prove this and not just say it - so a provide a contract that details this fact clearly] again state this. If you lose your job then the public purse may need to step in to provide for you so - it could be argued - your prosecution is not in the public interest.

I think this is a red herring. The TOC has no interest in what you do next - so long as you pay your train fares. Make sure you're very clear about this, but this will just be irrelevant bumpf for whoever reads your letter.

The TOC will be deciding if the prosecution is in their interest.
 

stupidboy201

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Hi guys I received a letter from northern rail saying they wanted me to come to court on a certain date. Also attached to that letter is a letter saying settlement offer if I pay this amount I won't have to go and won't get a criminal record. I have called them up to pay and they are saying that because I have two charges one of not paying for fair and one of false identity they don't offer settlement. However I told them I have this letter so they said send the picture of the letter and i have done. Should they not let me pay the fine and avoid me going to court if they have sent me a letter saying that? What can I do if they don't let me pay?
 

Darandio

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Are you sure you haven't missed a letter somewhere along the line, and the attached letter is a copy of an earlier letter sent which they believe to have been ignored?
 

HilversumNS

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Is this related to this post?

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=113498

I travelled to manchester from blackburn. i bought a train ticket from blackburn to bolton via my debit card. i wanted to buy a train ticket to manchester from bolton. as i got to manchester i was getting late for my bus to work. so i was taking the easier exit and intend to buy the return ticket of manchester to bolton on my retur. however i was stopped by an inspector. stupidly i gave wrong details as i was terrified and scared. then before they rang to confirm i thought to give correct details. what will happen to me. i am terrified and don't want a criminal record or £1000 fine. please help!!!!!!!!!!!

How long does it take for norther rails letter
 

stupidboy201

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I am sur. I have only received this letter and I have the full letter as evidence. It states clearly a settlement offer. When I read it out to the Northerrail prosecutions department employee she realised that it is genuine and asked for photo evidence. She said they will call me back after reviewing it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In reply to hilversumns yes it is in regards to that
 

najaB

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Should they not let me pay the fine and avoid me going to court if they have sent me a letter saying that? What can I do if they don't let me pay?
Well, being pedantic, it is a settlement offer and an offer can be withdrawn at any time. If they sent it in error then they would be within their rights to not accept the settlement.

However, in the name of good public relations, I think they should accept that they sent the letter and allow you to settle as it proposes.
 

455driver

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Well, being pedantic, it is a settlement offer and an offer can be withdrawn at any time. If they sent it in error then they would be within their rights to not accept the settlement.
Well said.
However, in the name of good public relations, I think they should accept that they sent the letter and allow you to settle as it proposes.

If they think that the OP is guilty of deliberate fare evasion I would hazard a guess that 'public relations' is the last thing NR are worried about! :lol:
 

najaB

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If they think that the OP is guilty of deliberate fare evasion I would hazard a guess that 'public relations' is the last thing NR are worried about! :lol:
Oh, I know that. However I'm imagining the fun that the Daily Wail could have with that one: "Rail company refuses own settlement offer", accompanied by a picture of stupidboy201 looking dejected while holding said letter.
 

NSEFAN

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How you plea doesn't change the legislation under which you are being prosecuted. The legislation should have been mentioned in the letters sent to you. Look for either "Regulation of Railways Act" or "Railway Byelaws".
 

timbo58

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If they don't let you pay the settlement then I would suggest seeking Legal Advice.

They haven't offered a settlement, hence he can't pay it.

Are you saying he needs legal advice per se if he doesn't have a settlement?
In which case I agree- the chances of being in court and it being a serious offence tend to demand some proper preparation being done.

Or are you saying the TOC MUST offer a settlement?
If so -why?
Surely only if persons in exactly the same situation can be proven to have been offered a settlement previously could there be any legal precedence and therefore a possibility of claiming an unfair treatment/discrimination of the OP?

I believe a settlement is only offered when appropriate -i.e. when the TOC doesn't feel 100% sure it can prove the fare was avoided with intent to do so (although it believes this to be the case), in the OPs case however it seems 'carte blanche' that the fare was avoided and intent can be proved.



I would argue it is always in the TOCs/Railways interests to prosecute when intent can be proved, since this provides a disincentive to those that might otherwise think it worth the risk.
 
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