Stupid fares

[Haywain]

On the subject of split tickets:
Last year I refused to sell a split ticket as: A: The punter did not know what split ticket she wanted and wanted me to go though almost every option. B She kept wanting to split her ticket at Wivelsfield, which I refused as the train did not stop there (fast from Hove to Haywards Heath). I explained if she wanted to buy a split ticket she needed to do some research before boarding, such as checking out split ticket websites and the tickets she wanted to buy followed the rules. As on train staff we do not have the time to look for odd splits. When asked, i will sell a split ticket to anyone if they know the ticket and it falls within the rules. As I remind passengers often that a certain ticket is NOT valid to London Bridge and remind them that using the ticket to London Bridge could result in fines, or worse if they keep doing it.

So you are doing pretty much what the majority of ticket offices will, for much the same reasons. And it is for those reasons that neither on train staff or ticket office staff are required to offer split tickets. In addition, there is the case that offering a split to one person may lead to another person at a different office wanting the same fare, without knowing the detail of how it was made up. This can cause real problems for staff.

Just the other day I warned a punter that for him to use two seasons,a gold card and a monthly, one london to Gatwick and Gatwick to Somewhere else, that the train needed to stop at Gatwick, which this train did not and that if I see him again on that train I will charge him. (not sure what mind!!)

In the circumstances, he had no valid ticket so a new ticket for the whole journey would seem appropriate. Others may hold a different view.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the circumstances, he had no valid ticket so a new ticket for the whole journey would seem appropriate. Others may hold a different view.

Hmm, for 19(c) to apply does one need to buy before boarding?

 

[dcsprior]

Hmm, for 19(c) to apply does one need to buy before boarding?

Or at least before the validity of the first ticket runs out (i.e. before the train gets to the last station at which it stops before Gatwick)?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or at least before the validity of the first ticket runs out (i.e. before the train gets to the last station at which it stops before Gatwick)?

I'd imagine that one would be the case. Or perhaps prior to the first *stop* at which it would cease to be valid had the split not been purchased (or before boarding if there is no such stop).

 

[dcsprior]

Wow, this escalated quickly from sarahj saying she'd done someone a favour!

I agree, sarahj mentioned doing a customer a favour, and got jumped on for it.

If I was charged for exactly what I asked for, I'd be perfectly happy - if however the member of staff used their knowledge to save me money I'd be even happier and more likely to give that company my business in future. This would be true of of a guard on a train, a ticket office, or a shop.

 

[father_jack]

I agree, sarahj mentioned doing a customer a favour, and got jumped on for it.

If I was charged for exactly what I asked for, I'd be perfectly happy - if however the member of staff used their knowledge to save me money I'd be even happier and more likely to give that company my business in future. This would be true of of a guard on a train, a ticket office, or a shop.

That doesn't really work in reality. Say you need to go somewhere on the train- so you go on the train. The ticket price is what it is. Most people pay it. You won't be more likely to travel if you pay the fare perceive it to be "cheaper" or someone splits a ticket. You will do what you need to do.

If you go somewhere in a car and think "gee that petrol has gone up in price" you won't not buy any.

And if every shop assistant/ticket bert/guard/ATE made you happy by giving you a lower price than what is dictated by their employer we'd have "interesting" dismissal cases to hear about !!!!

 

[MikeWh]

If you go somewhere in a car and think "gee that petrol has gone up in price" you won't not buy any.

Well actually I'd be likely to not buy from that forecourt but rather search on petrolprices.com to find a more palateable price.

 

[father_jack]

In addition, there is the case that offering a split to one person may lead to another person at a different office wanting the same fare, without knowing the detail of how it was made up. This can cause real problems for staff.
.

Made that point earlier. People look for a "repeat" split ticket of what they had 6 months ago from "that lovely man", sometimes they hadn't a clue what they were sold or it might even have been a different journey !!!

Another one I recall was a certain clerk in a midlands station selling "long" SVRs with an 8A (any train) restriction rather than Cross Countrys 2V (0930+) restriction rather than SORs and the customer not even knowing where the actual destination on the ticket was !!!!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....
Just the other day I warned a punter that for him to use two seasons,a gold card and a monthly, one london to Gatwick and Gatwick to Somewhere else, that the train needed to stop at Gatwick, which this train did not and that if I see him again on that train I will charge him. (not sure what mind!!)

Full Anytime Single from the last station the train is scheduled to call at before Gatwick, to the first station it is scheduled to call at after Gatwick.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That was my thought as well.

 

[sarahj]

That was my thought as well.

Then that would be a single from East Croydon to Three Bridges. Would he get his gold card discount.

Mind all theory anyway, I'm not likely to see him anyway, I was covering a Redhill Job*. Train was something like the 17.38 London Bridge to Bognor Regis. (forget the exact time). 12 cars packed. Managed to check the middle 4 coaches only between Croydon and Bridges, then its a race to the middle to dispatch from Crawley and front 5 for Ifield, and then your off at Horsham.

Also miffed off my first commuter for 2016. Woman asked to sit down in first, I said no, she went all miffed. Err, your a gold card commuter from Croydon to Horsham, hint, don't board the middle coaches, seats at the back, or catch the next train down behind by 13 mins (pompy/Bognor), dead, tons of seats.

*had to come into work 2 hours early to work it. They called when I was asleep. Agreed to it, fell back asleep. When I woke up, had to phone back in to find out what I had agreed to do. Doh!!!

 

[yorkie]

That doesn't really work in reality. Say you need to go somewhere on the train- so you go on the train. The ticket price is what it is. Most people pay it. You won't be more likely to travel if you pay the fare perceive it to be "cheaper" or someone splits a ticket. You will do what you need to do.

No, if the fare is too expensive and there is no way to bring it down by using split tickets/loopholes etc. I will go by bus, or get a lift, or not travel. I will not be held to ransom. Just last week I chose not to take a 20minute train journey and instead take a 1 hour car journey because the train fare is ludicrous and has quadrupled in the last 15 years.

Another one I recall was a certain clerk in a midlands station selling "long" SVRs with an 8A (any train) restriction rather than Cross Countrys 2V (0930+) restriction rather than SORs and the customer not even knowing where the actual destination on the ticket was !!!!

Indeed, that's naughty. Didn't the clerk realise the best value fares should only be used by fares experts, or people in a position to ask fares experts

 

[anme]

No, if the fare is too expensive and there is no way to bring it down by using split tickets/loopholes etc. I will go by bus, or get a lift, or not travel. I will not be held to ransom. Just last week I chose not to take a 20minute train journey and instead take a 1 hour car journey because the train fare is ludicrous and has quadrupled in the last 15 years.

Fully agree. I have given up on Virgin's West Coast Anytime fares. There is no way I can justify to my employer spending GBP170 to go to Birmingham or GBP332 to go to Manchester. I'm sad to say that a hire car will win every time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As 8A bars outward BoJ that is naughty.

 

[father_jack]

As 8A bars outward BoJ that is naughty.

Doesn't any more...... And anyway can you "force" someone to finish their journey ? Just going outside to have a fag or ralph !!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No, if the fare is too expensive and there is no way to bring it down by using split tickets/loopholes etc. I will go by bus, or get a lift, or not travel. I will not be held to ransom. Just last week I chose not to take a 20minute train journey and instead take a 1 hour car journey because the train fare is ludicrous and has quadrupled in the last 15 years.

Indeed, that's naughty. Didn't the clerk realise the best value fares should only be used by fares experts, or people in a position to ask fares experts

Yorkie, "fares experts" or anyone are welcome to have whatever they want AS LONG AS THEY ASK FOR IT and know what they're doing !!!! I'm no industry martyr nor apologist. A peaceful life is easiest !!!

 

[yorkie]

And anyway can you "force" someone to finish their journey ? Just going outside to have a fag or ralph !!!

Quite. I've never actually heard of anyone be excessed, as per the NRCoC, when finishing short anyway. The only times I've heard any charge be made was a new ticket, which of course is completely wrong and therefore refundable. But, as the media love such stories, the rail industry has sensibly instructed its staff not to charge for finishing short.

Yorkie, "fares experts" or anyone are welcome to have whatever they want AS LONG AS THEY ASK FOR IT and know what they're doing !!!! I'm no industry martyr nor apologist. A peaceful life is easiest !!!

You are right, people should ask for it. My post wasn't a serious one really.

That said if you personally know of a split and you think it appropriate you can let the passenger know too............

EMT at St Pancras call it "harassment" and told passengers to "not listen" when a member of the public advises other passengers of a cheaper fare, though the BTP refused to intervene when the passengers being advised said they were not being harassed and were happy with the advice. The amusing thing was, the fare they were being told about was not even a split, nor was it starting/finishing short; it was the appropriate fare that the TVMs were simply not selling!

So, is it OK for a member of the public to let fellow passengers know of a cheaper fare.. or not? EMT think not, but I am not convinced.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

...... And anyway can you "force" someone to finish their journey ? Just going outside to have a fag or ralph !!! . . .

Quite specifically, NO.

There is an interesting imbalance in the responsibilities and liabilities in the contract between passenger and Railway Company :
- a Railway Company is obliged to convey the ticket holding passenger, using a taxi if necessary, and incurs a great responsibility for their safety.
- a ticket holding passenger is under no obligation to travel as contracted or at all.

As there is no obligation for a ticket holding passenger to travel, then any 'force' to travel (whether in part or to complete their journey) is likely to be viewed as an assault.

Some tickets, notably 'Advance' tickets, are an interesting exception in that the passenger remains at liberty not to travel, but if they choose to do so, then they are obliged to travel between the contracted stations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Doesn't any more......

It does.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/8A

 

[yorkie]

It does.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/8A

In theory it does, but for it to apply "...the Ticket Seller must make this clear when you buy your ticket..." and I can't name a single occasion I've bought such a ticket and it has been "made clear", nor do I know of anyone who has had it "made clear" to them.

Even then, it's not really enforceable. In theory it can be enforced by means of charging an excess to the lowest priced ticket that would have allowed it, which in practice is often hard to actually implement, and the rail industry does not like the bad publicity such incidents can cause, and so instruct staff not to charge such excess fares.

But it's naughty so we shouldn't really recommend it.

 

[father_jack]

It does.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/8A

Indeed, I thought ATW had changed that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In theory it does, but for it to apply "...the Ticket Seller must make this clear when you buy your ticket..." and I can't name a single occasion I've bought such a ticket and it has been "made clear", nor do I know of anyone who has had it "made clear" to them.

Even then, it's not really enforceable. In theory it can be enforced by means of charging an excess to the lowest priced ticket that would have allowed it, which in practice is often hard to actually implement, and the rail industry does not like the bad publicity such incidents can cause, and so instruct staff not to charge such excess fares.

But it's naughty so we shouldn't really recommend it.

I think officially you should still actually be given a conditions card !!! You get one with AP tickets at a station but you tick the box online, and who reads the conditions before they tick the box.............

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Then that would be a single from East Croydon to Three Bridges. Would he get his gold card discount....

If there was a facility to buy the ticket at the passenger's origin station, there is no entitlement to a railcard discount.

....Also miffed off my first commuter for 2016. Woman asked to sit down in first, I said no, she went all miffed. Err, your a gold card commuter from Croydon to Horsham, hint, don't board the middle coaches, seats at the back, or catch the next train down behind by 13 mins (pompy/Bognor), dead, tons of seats....

Regulars of FGW services might refer to this as Coach E Syndrome. Coach E out of Paddington at "peak time" is rammed, Coach D less so, Coach C probably has a few seats, Coach B might be half empty, Coach A possibly more empty seats than occupied. Goi into Coach E and they'll say "Why don't they just put another coach between this one and First class so that there's a bit more room?".

 

[sarahj]

If there was a facility to buy the ticket at the passenger's origin station, there is no entitlement to a railcard discount.



Regulars of FGW services might refer to this as Coach E Syndrome. Coach E out of Paddington at "peak time" is rammed, Coach D less so, Coach C probably has a few seats, Coach B might be half empty, Coach A possibly more empty seats than occupied. Goi into Coach E and they'll say "Why don't they just put another coach between this one and First class so that there's a bit more room?".

For us at Southern its Brighton back to Victoria on a summer sunday afternoon (12 coaches, 11 & 12 packed silly, coach 2, one man and a dog), or Gatwick, where on platform 4 they all wait at the bottom of the stairs, pack into two coaches of a 12 car, you see them queuing at the doors and then moan how busy it is. Meanwhile the odd one or two who went to further up or down the platform has a table for 4 to themselves. On a summer sunday afternoon on a train from Brighton, (first stop Gatwick), you then leave Gatwick with the train as thus: 12, Packed silly, 11, packed silly, 10, busy, but all seated, 9 not so busy, 8 less busy, 7 quiet, 6, quiet, 5, packed silly, plus suitcases, 4 packed silly plus suitcases, 3, less busy, 2 one man and a dog, 1, so, so with the regulars who want a fast escape at Vic.:roll:

 

[Wolfie]

Full Anytime Single from the last station the train is scheduled to call at before Gatwick, to the first station it is scheduled to call at after Gatwick.

This makes sense if the train doesn't stop at Gatwick. Presumably the Gatwick to London ticket is deemed to be valid from the destination station of such a ticket to London?

 

[Paul Kelly]

This makes sense if the train doesn't stop at Gatwick. Presumably the Gatwick to London ticket is deemed to be valid from the destination station of such a ticket to London?

As long as the Gatwick to London ticket allows starting short (which a season does for sure), then yes, that is the logic there.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

All I was doing was pointing out that some fares are a bit stupid as the through fare for a short extension to Hove was a bit high.

As a postscript, I was travelling yesterday on one of my regular journeys which has perhaps the "stupidest fare" I've encountered, starting at an unstaffed station. When the guard came round, I explained where I was going and asked for a ticket to A, where I'd be changing trains and splitting.

He said "oh, let me see if I can do that a bit cheaper for you", and actually came up with a further split, saving £3 on a £25-ish fare. He also agreed that the unsplit fare for my total journey was "stupid" (his words), which was a generous admission given that it's set by his employer!

Asking around, offering splits without prompting seems to be a reasonably common practice among guards on that line. So, TOCs, maybe you could sort your fares out and stop wasting your guards' time.